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Will Cinavia kill PC Blu-ray Playback Software?

post #1 of 158
12/23/11 at 6:05am
Thread Starter 
Yet Another Cinavia Thread (YACT): (I didn't find a thread specific to this topic)

While I use TMT5 to playback Blu-ray rental disks, I mainly use it to playback my DVD and Blu-ray rips (I have a legit retail version of every ripped disk). If PC Blu-ray software companies (i.e. ArcSoft) are required to implement Cinavia, I probably won't buy/upgrade to a newer version. I expect most people won't, which will significantly reduce sales and potentially kill the PC software Blu-ray player market. Some sales will still occur, especially for OEM copies, but I expect a majority of sales are to people like us with HTPCs and a ripped movie library.

More Cinavia FUD or a legitimate concern? As long as MPC-HC stays around and/or older software continues to work, we might be OK , but our options may become limited if more and more disks become 'infected' with Cinavia.

Tim
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post #2 of 158
12/23/11 at 6:17am
If they offer an upgrade for free (i.e. a regular patch which also includes added Cinavia support), probably not. Arcsoft for ex. don`t seem to be planing on releasing any new version of TMT for example, so i presume Cinavia support will be added as a patch.
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post #3 of 158
12/28/11 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

If they offer an upgrade for free (i.e. a regular patch which also includes added Cinavia support), probably not. Arcsoft for ex. don`t seem to be planing on releasing any new version of TMT for example, so i presume Cinavia support will be added as a patch.

Power DVD 10 " compels an update from AACS" and warns that " newer movies may not be playable" most probably cinavia "infected"
So if the new movies are not playable, suppose one cannot do without cinavia!
Did any one update their software ?
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post #4 of 158
12/28/11 at 2:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenEyez View Post

If they offer an upgrade for free (i.e. a regular patch which also includes added Cinavia support), probably not. Arcsoft for ex. don`t seem to be planing on releasing any new version of TMT for example, so i presume Cinavia support will be added as a patch.

If TMT adds Cinavia in a patch, I would stop using it if more of my purchased (and then ripped) Blu-Rays have Cinavia. To date, I own zero Cinavia "activated" disks. TMT would then be relegated to watching rental disks and MPC-HC would be my player of choice for the rips.

Tim
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post #5 of 158
12/28/11 at 2:39pm
Hopefully the people from slysoft will come up with a player solution if this happens.
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post #6 of 158
12/29/11 at 12:34am
Well, this didn't take long...
"DVDFab provides the first Cinavia solution for the Blu-ray playback" http://www.dvdfab.com/cinavia.htm
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post #7 of 158
10/4/12 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hjackson View Post

Well, this didn't take long...

"DVDFab provides the first Cinavia solution for the Blu-ray playback" http://www.dvdfab.com/cinavia.htm

FWIW, that only helps ppl w/ PS3s that haven't updated their firmware past v4.0. It is a workaround, not a solution. AFAICT, the only real solution so far is a player that ignores the cinavia infection, er, signal. The rest of the story can be found on the DVDFab blog page for cinavia; it can be found at: http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html.

They were right about PDVD12 mostly; 1905b also recognizes cinavia infections. My backup of TGWTDT mutes 20 minutes in, and gives me Message 3. Others on the list have given the same result. So much for upgrading... mad.gif
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post #8 of 158
11/26/12 at 1:48pm
Has anyone had any problems with the new version of TMTE3 making your BD HTPC unusable? Or has no one here installed the latest version with Cinavia yet?

I had a brand new XPS One 27, which was working perfectly, even with AnyDVD HD installed - I installed TMTE3, not knowing about the implentation of Conavia, and my Bluray drive now hangs whenever I insert any disk with BD streams

I uninstalled TMT, then AnyDVD, and even reversed the registry back to a previous time - none of this has resolved the issue, indicating that TMT/Cinavia made a permanent change in the system software somewhere..

Would TMT have tried to modify my BD drive's firmware or driver software??
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post #9 of 158
2/28/13 at 3:40am
Well I just stumbled upon this since I have my server with my ISOs on it and finally got a disc with this infernal Cinavia crap. I need to find a TMT version before this as well. On the plus side it made me convert from ISOs to MKVs which saved me terabytes of space on my media server smile.gif
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post #10 of 158
2/28/13 at 4:43am
Cinavia killed it for me. I'm converting everything, including extras, to MKV.
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post #11 of 158
2/28/13 at 7:32am
Converting to MKV does nothing as far as Cinavia. It still will not be playable if you use TMT with Cinavia detection. The last version of TMT to not include Cinavia detection was TMT5 v.146
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post #12 of 158
2/28/13 at 8:21am
True, but I'm not sure why anyone would play an MKV in TMT5 (or any of the other pay players) when you can use it directly in WMC with LAV filters or MPC and have no issue with Cinavia at all.
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post #13 of 158
2/28/13 at 8:33am
What's the last version of PowerDVD without Cinavia?
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post #14 of 158
2/28/13 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarshonarbangla View Post

What's the last version of PowerDVD without Cinavia?

From what I have seen, PDVD 11 is the latest version without Cinavia. PDVD 12 has it.
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post #15 of 158
2/28/13 at 4:58pm
I upgraded to TMT6 because it was $10. I have not had one problem with it or any disk I've tried to play with it. I only get movies on Blu-Ray (or rent them from iTunes), so new copy protection isn't a big deal to me. And to be clear, no disk is "infected" with cinavia. It has it as a new copy protection method. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Don't buy any Blu-Ray discs that have it and don't buy software that includes it. That's your choice. But don't try and label it as a virus just because you don't like it.
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post #16 of 158
2/28/13 at 5:24pm
If Cinavia is a virus, then so are the little chips put in the DVD Case that cause the detectors by the store door to alarm when you walk out without paying.
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post #17 of 158
3/1/13 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkscout View Post

I upgraded to TMT6 because it was $10. I have not had one problem with it or any disk I've tried to play with it. I only get movies on Blu-Ray (or rent them from iTunes), so new copy protection isn't a big deal to me. And to be clear, no disk is "infected" with cinavia. It has it as a new copy protection method. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Don't buy any Blu-Ray discs that have it and don't buy software that includes it. That's your choice. But don't try and label it as a virus just because you don't like it.

Its a virus because normal copy protection doesn't fubar your system. I wrote about it in the tmt5 thread, but when I got hit with the cinavia error on mib3, it completely disabled trueHD and DTSHD on EVERY movie I tried to play after that. That's a virus.
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post #18 of 158
3/1/13 at 7:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

Its a virus because normal copy protection doesn't fubar your system. I wrote about it in the tmt5 thread, but when I got hit with the cinavia error on mib3, it completely disabled trueHD and DTSHD on EVERY movie I tried to play after that. That's a virus.

Thats a software bug / error, not a virus.

David
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post #19 of 158
3/1/13 at 7:37am
Does it really matter? If it quacks like a duck...
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post #20 of 158
3/1/13 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

Its a virus because normal copy protection doesn't fubar your system. I wrote about it in the tmt5 thread, but when I got hit with the cinavia error on mib3, it completely disabled trueHD and DTSHD on EVERY movie I tried to play after that. That's a virus.

Was that just in TMT5 or in any playback software that supports HD Audio?
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post #21 of 158
3/1/13 at 7:43am
In anything. Arcsoft claimed it was bad sound drivers, but reinstalling the sound drivers didn't fix anything. I finally had to do a full rebuild of the system.
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post #22 of 158
3/1/13 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

In anything. Arcsoft claimed it was bad sound drivers, but reinstalling the sound drivers didn't fix anything. I finally had to do a full rebuild of the system.

Since you are the only one on this forum that it happened to, I would say it is not Cinavia that did it - but something else on your system. If it was the fault of Cinavia, lots of us here would have the same problem.
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post #23 of 158
3/1/13 at 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

In anything. Arcsoft claimed it was bad sound drivers, but reinstalling the sound drivers didn't fix anything. I finally had to do a full rebuild of the system.

Since you are the only one on this forum that it happened to, I would say it is not Cinavia that did it - but something else on your system. If it was the fault of Cinavia, lots of us here would have the same problem.


It may be that whatever it does affects different drivers in different ways, but it was definitely caused by cinavia. As a test after my rebuild, I installed the latest tmt5, played mib3,, and had the exact same thing happen. thankfully since I use whs, I just restored to before that this time and put a non cinavia version of tmt5 on my machine.
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post #24 of 158
3/1/13 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

but it was definitely caused by cinavia.
No it wasn't. It might have been caused by ArcSoft's software after they detect a Cinavia signal but (if that's the case), that is simply bad coding... very different than it being caused by Cinavia. If it were cause by Cinavia, playing your converted MKVs in any player (TMT, MPC-HC, JRiver, XBMC, etc) would do the same thing to your system because the MKVs still contain Cinavia.
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post #25 of 158
3/1/13 at 11:49am
You can split hairs all you want. The trigger is Cinavia. Arcsoft is required to include Cinavai in their software. The problem is Cinavia.

MPC-HC doesn't have Cinavia detection, nor does XBMC, so no they would not do the same thing to my system. I don't know anything about JRiver, so I can't speak to that, but you should get your facts straight.
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post #26 of 158
3/1/13 at 12:13pm
I'm not spitting hairs, I'm correcting your misinformation and I do have my facts straight.

Facts:
  1. Cinavia is an audio watermark (a signal).
  2. Cinavia is only present in audio, not in software.
  3. Cinavia detection algorithms are present in software but Cinavia itself is not.
  4. Transcoding the audio does not remove Cinavia.
  5. Remuxing the original audio into another container (MKV) does not remove Cinavia.
  6. Cinavia is not a virus. Don't believe me on this? Ask Kaspersky, Symantec, Avast and every other AV software vendor you can find, then keep using TMT/PDVD... after all, you want to detect an block a virus don't you?

As gsr said in another thread, calling Cinavia a virus diminishes real and valid arguments against it.
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post #27 of 158
3/1/13 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I'm not spitting hairs, I'm correcting your misinformation and I do have my facts straight.

Facts:
  1. Cinavia is an audio watermark (a signal).
  2. Cinavia is only present in audio, not in software.
  3. Cinavia detection algorithms are present in software but Cinavia itself is not.
  4. Transcoding the audio does not remove Cinavia.
  5. Remuxing the original audio into another container (MKV) does not remove Cinavia.
  6. Cinavia is not a virus. Don't believe me on this? Ask Kaspersky, Symantec, Avast and every other AV software vendor you can find, then keep using TMT/PDVD... after all, you want to detect an block a virus don't you?

As gsr said in another thread, calling Cinavia a virus diminishes real and valid arguments against it.

I have a couple points to make here.

Cinavia doesn't effect playback for me so why should I even worry about it?

As far as whether it is a virus or not is really dependent on the AV software vendors. It may very well be a virus but if the corporations that control the production of AV software say it isn't then it isn't. These corporations are owned by the same lot that owns the studios. These are the same studios that lobbied Congress to extend the "limited time" provision for copyright to 99 years a while back. There is no reason that dam little mouse should not be in the public domain right now except that D and their cohorts deemed it so. These are all examples of money = speech even if it is a little far fetched.
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post #28 of 158
3/1/13 at 12:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I'm not spitting hairs, I'm correcting your misinformation and I do have my facts straight.

Facts:
  1. Cinavia is an audio watermark (a signal).
  2. Cinavia is only present in audio, not in software.
  3. Cinavia detection algorithms are present in software but Cinavia itself is not.
  4. Transcoding the audio does not remove Cinavia.
  5. Remuxing the original audio into another container (MKV) does not remove Cinavia.
  6. Cinavia is not a virus. Don't believe me on this? Ask Kaspersky, Symantec, Avast and every other AV software vendor you can find, then keep using TMT/PDVD... after all, you want to detect an block a virus don't you?

As gsr said in another thread, calling Cinavia a virus diminishes real and valid arguments against it.

You seem to think that XBMC and MPC have Cinanvia dection in them. I'd call that not having your facts straight.

Cinavia dectection has, from my experience, the same effect as a virus. No amount of work on my part was unable to fix the damage that was done to my machine without a total rebuild. That is a characteristic of the worst viruses. As far as I am conmcerned, its a virus, I really don't care what the virus companies have to say on it.
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post #29 of 158
3/1/13 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Cinavia doesn't effect playback for me so why should I even worry about it?
You shouldn't. It only affects you if you play a movie with the copy protections stripped in a licensed player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

As far as whether it is a virus or not is really dependent on the AV software vendors.
Then ask your favorite cyber security firm. My point was that the only thing viral about Cinavia is that people have jumped on the bandwagon of calling it a virus despite very respected people in the worlds of HTPCs, audio/video, programming and disc backup solutions saying otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It may very well be a virus but if the corporations that control the production of AV software say it isn't then it isn't. These corporations are owned by the same lot that owns the studios. These are the same studios that lobbied Congress to extend the "limited time" provision for copyright to 99 years a while back. There is no reason that dam little mouse should not be in the public domain right now except that D and their cohorts deemed it so. These are all examples of money = speech even if it is a little far fetched.
To my knowledge, no movie studios (or their parent companies) own Symantec or Kaspersky.
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post #30 of 158
3/1/13 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

You seem to think that XBMC and MPC have Cinanvia dection in them. I'd call that not having your facts straight.

Cinavia dectection has, from my experience, the same effect as a virus. No amount of work on my part was unable to fix the damage that was done to my machine without a total rebuild. That is a characteristic of the worst viruses. As far as I am conmcerned, its a virus, I really don't care what the virus companies have to say on it.

I certainly did not read that anywhere in Vladd's post.
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