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Will Cinavia kill PC Blu-ray Playback Software? - Page 2

post #31 of 160
I am not saying it is necessarily a virus. What I am doing is making a political statement about copyright law specifically and corporations generally.
post #32 of 160
He says that if Cinavia was the problem, then playing them in XBMC, TMT, MPC-HC or J-River they would have the problem. That implies he thinks they detect it.
post #33 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

You seem to think that XBMC and MPC have Cinanvia dection in them. I'd call that not having your facts straight.
You seem to be reading things that are not there. I never said or implied that they have Cinavia detection. Only (newer versions of) licensed players have Cinavia detection and XBMC/MPC are not and never will be licensed. You said that Cinavia messed up your system and I corrected you saying that if it was Cinavia itself (not the detection algorithms and additional programming) then you would have been affected regardless of the player. Cinavia is still in the MKVs and still present whether the player detects it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncarty97 View Post

Cinavia dectection has, from my experience, the same effect as a virus. No amount of work on my part was unable to fix the damage that was done to my machine without a total rebuild. That is a characteristic of the worst viruses. As far as I am conmcerned, its a virus, I really don't care what the virus companies have to say on it.
Oh, well since you say so...
post #34 of 160
As far as AV companies and the studios being owned by the same parent company that is not what I meant. What I mean is that the same monied classes own them and Congress too.
post #35 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You seem to be reading things that are not there. I never said or implied that they have Cinavia detection. Only (newer versions of) licensed players have Cinavia detection and XBMC/MPC are not and never will be licensed.

No ****.

Quote:
Oh, well since you say so...

So something is not a virus unless the major anti-viruses say so? Ok chief!
post #36 of 160
At risk of being called the forum cop let's all just get along.
post #37 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

As far as AV companies and the studios being owned by the same parent company that is not what I meant. What I mean is that the same monied classes own them and Congress too.
Would you say that applies to SlySoft as well? Using the word "virus" to describe Cinavia became popular with certain groups (who seem to know nothing about audio watermarking or software coding) after one of the SlySoft team members threatened to ban people from their forums for using the word "cancer".
post #38 of 160
I don't think it is a virus at all. I just was ranting about DRM in particular and corporations in general. I'll step down off my soapbox now.
post #39 of 160
FTR I had the same issue as ncarty but I was using TMT6. I just wanted to see what happened when the player detected Cinavia, so I enabled Anydvd and threw in 21 Jump Street. About half way through the movie the audio was cut and the Cinavia message showed up. Exactly what I expected, but I did not expect it would bork bitstreaming on my system. I don't know who to blame it on (Cinavia or Arcsoft) and I really don't care. I had to format and will not install anything from Arcsoft or any other program the contains Cinavia.
post #40 of 160
FWIW, the first person in this thread to mention viruses with respect to cinavia was pkscout who was trying to deny the association. Prior to that, only the term "infected" had been used. The word infected has multiple meanings. It does not necessarily mean communicable- only that someone or something has been contaminated with destructive foreign material.

Merriam-Webster's first (i.e. most common) definition of infection is "the act or result of affecting injuriously." By that definition an audio track with cinavia qualifies as infected - the audio fidelity has been injured by the addition of cinavia data.

Also, FWIW the experience of Xcel101 and ncarty97 is perfectly valid. The minutiae of the technical details really is irrelevant - if it were not for the existence of cinavia, their systems would not have been borked. It is just like the myriad of HDMI handshaking problems we've seen over the years - technically not HDCP's fault, its the fault of the people manufacturing the various components and doing so poorly. But to the user it doesn't matter one iota, they legitimately paid for the products and cant use them the way they want to because the copy-prevention had unexpected side-effects. All the parts necessary for playback worked, it was only the parts for the zero-value-added copy-prevention that were flakey.
post #41 of 160
Anyone who calls Cinavia a virus is either butt hurt and embellishing or has no idea how computer malware works. Any system bugs/errors that resulted from using TMT were at the fault of Arcsoft - not Cinavia. End of story.

And I dislike Cinavia also FWIW.
post #42 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryW View Post

the audio fidelity has been injured by the addition of cinavia data.
There has been absolutely ZERO evidence to support or refute this claim. It is pure conjecture and cannot be proven until the exact same track is compared with and without Cinavia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryW View Post

Also, FWIW the experience of Xcel101 and ncarty97 is perfectly valid. The minutiae of the technical details really is irrelevant
I never discounted their experience or said their systems were not borked but last I checked, this was still a science related forum... the technical details are absolutely important. If HD audio playback by PDVD and standalone players were borked as well, it would be a problem due to Cinavia. The fact that it is specific to TMT shows that it is simply bad code. That bad code just happens to be in their Cinavia related routines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryW View Post

- if it were not for the existence of cinavia, their systems would not have been borked.
If it weren't for the existence of bad code, their systems would not have been borked.
Edited by vladd - 3/2/13 at 8:38am
post #43 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

There has been absolutely ZERO evidence to support or refute this claim. It is pure conjecture and cannot be proven until the exact same track is compared with and without Cinavia.
It's been well established that the verance-family of watermarking schemes, of which cinavia is just the latest incarnation, at a minimum fiddle with the time delay of echoes. Furthermore, the very nature of its robustness - the ability to survive all kinds of re-recording and filtering - should be enough evidence to conclusively say that the audio fidelity has been damaged. It isn't just a matter of hiding bits in what would otherwise be noise, because filtering out the noise is not enough to remove the cinavia signal.
Quote:
If it weren't for the existence of bad code, their systems would not have been borked.
The only reason the bad code exists is because of an attempt to implement cinavia. This is not rocket-science, not some chicken-and-egg conundrum, it is simple cause and effect. Just like all the brittle HDCP implementations would not exist if HDCP did not exist.
post #44 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryW View Post

The only reason the bad code exists is because of an attempt to implement cinavia. This is not rocket-science, not some chicken-and-egg conundrum, it is simple cause and effect. Just like all the brittle HDCP implementations would not exist if HDCP did not exist.

Exactly - Arcsoft is to blame for the ****** implementation - not Cinavia

If you install Photoshop and it crashes your system when you go to open any jpg or png file - it's Photoshops fault - you wouldn't go blaming the jpg/png standard itself. That is the exact same argument going on here.

Plenty of consumer devices work fine with Cinavia built into them - even other PC Blu-ray software. You would think that would be enough for people to realize the problem lies with Arcsoft's software - not Cinavia. But common sense is a rare thing I suppose. TMT was and is buggy as hell well before they implemented Cinavia - another sign at who is truly to blame.
Edited by staknhalo - 3/2/13 at 4:02pm
post #45 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by staknhalo View Post

Exactly - Arcsoft is to blame for the ****** implementation - not Cinavia
This is a case of a chain of causes. Arcsoft's buggy code is part of the chain, but the root cause is cinavia.
Quote:
If you install Photoshop and it crashes your system when you go to open any jpg or png file - it's Photoshops fault - you wouldn't go blaming the jpg/png standard itself. That is the exact same argument going on here.
Except for the simple fact that jpeg support is something the user wants in photoshop. No user wants cinavia because it adds no value for them - take it away and not one single user would miss it.

This discussion is so weird. I never imagined there would be such a thing as a cinavia fanboi.
post #46 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryW View Post

This is a case of a chain of causes. Arcsoft's buggy code is part of the chain, but the root cause is cinavia.
Except for the simple fact that jpeg support is something the user wants in photoshop. No user wants cinavia because it adds no value for them - take it away and not one single user would miss it.

This discussion is so weird. I never imagined there would be such a thing as a cinavia fanboi.

Well I can see you have firmly sided with blind ignorance on this. No one likes Cinavia, it's just your misguided blame is completely and obviously wrong. But you will never allow yourself to think or admit otherwise. Good luck with that. I'm done trying to talk to a brick wall.
post #47 of 160
This thread just reinforces why I stopped using PDVD and TMT5 for playback of Blu-Ray rips. I used to rip them as iso's and then play then using the aforementioned apps. I could never get consistent performance with either program so I tried MakeMKV and XBMC and never looked back. I just don't understand why anyone would want to pay for software that causes them nothing but headaches when there are better solutions available for free.
post #48 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

This thread just reinforces why I stopped using PDVD and TMT5 for playback of Blu-Ray rips. I used to rip them as iso's and then play then using the aforementioned apps. I could never get consistent performance with either program so I tried MakeMKV and XBMC and never looked back. I just don't understand why anyone would want to pay for software that causes them nothing but headaches when there are better solutions available for free.

Don't you lose HD Audio and menus with mkvs? Or have the improved since last I looked at them, which has admittedly been years now.
post #49 of 160
You lose menus but you can still have HD audio. I don't see much point in remuxing to MKV though since you can play m2ts directly.
post #50 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

You lose menus but you can still have HD audio. I don't see much point in remuxing to MKV though since you can play m2ts directly.
AACS. You can buy a program that circumvents it (Fab or Any) or you can use the (so far) eternally free 'Beta' of MakeMKV to copy your personally owned BluRay disks to your hard drive without that dreaded AACS.
post #51 of 160
I've owned AnyDVD HD since HD-DVDs were still an option (long before Slysoft moved to a subscription model). I do however see your point for those just getting into the game.
post #52 of 160
I like the menu system...we need a solution which keeps it.
post #53 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I like the menu system...we need a solution which keeps it.
The VLC guys are working on it. It is somewhat usuable today, but it is not plug and play, you must manually add it to the standard VLC distribution.

http://www.videolan.org/developers/libbluray.html
post #54 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I like the menu system...we need a solution which keeps it.
I'm working on it for NextPVR:



I'm using the DirectShow port of VLC's libbluray found @ http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1615852#post1615852
post #55 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I'm working on it for NextPVR:



I'm using the DirectShow port of VLC's libbluray found @ http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1615852#post1615852

Darn, and after I've already remuxed my main titles to .mkv and trashed the full .iso files. Oh well, rock on man; best of luck smile.gif
post #56 of 160
Thanks. It's still a work in progress and definitely not ready for public consumption. I do hope to get it finished during the next NextPVR release cycle though.
post #57 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

I'm working on it for NextPVR:



I'm using the DirectShow port of VLC's libbluray found @ http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1615852#post1615852

OK, color me impressed. smile.gif Let me know when you have this beast done, or need it tested. I have lots of ISOs - including that one in the picture.
post #58 of 160
Will do. It doesn't work with Java menus but it will work with Speed Menus in AnyDVD. Cinavia won't be an issue, of course. wink.gif
post #59 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Don't you lose HD Audio and menus with mkvs? Or have the improved since last I looked at them, which has admittedly been years now.
I lose menus but I can pick and choose which audio and subtitles I want to keep. The beauty of using MakeMKV and XBMC is that it totally simplifies ripping and playback. XBMC pulls in all of the cover art and metadata automatically. I just browse through my movie listings and click on the one I want to watch. Playback starts immediately with no loss in resolution and full HD audio.

I don't care about the extras and just want the main movie. MakeMKV can create individual MKV files of each feature included on the disc if you like. You can rip them all and label each one accordingly. Instead of going through a menu to play them you can put them all in a folder and access them directly through XBMC.
Edited by captain_video - 3/4/13 at 4:27am
post #60 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I like the menu system...we need a solution which keeps it.

I used to be that way, but after moving all my movies (and extras) to MKV, I much prefer the setup in MediaBrowser (and if the demo they showed for MB3 comes true, its going to be even fast). There's no waiting for TMT5 to open, or the 'disc' to load (Snow White and the Huntsman probably took a full two minutes to bring up the menu and I have very modern equipment).
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