JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 6

That's an interesting question, Art. As someone who's owned several DLP projectors, I'd say that I'm rainbow sensitive until my eyes and brain watch for a while, then I naturally figure a way to tune it out so that it doesn't bother me much at all. That usually takes a day or two. With my 720p DLPs, I had trouble seeing it at all after an acclimation period. However, as soon as I saw the JVC image, I realized it would be hard for me to go back to DLP again. D-ILA just feels more right for my eye-brain sensitivity. There is an inherent "fracturing" of the image with DLP (at least at speeds I've seen it) that isn't there at all with D-ILA (or LCD, but that's a different kettle of fish).

As for ghosting, there's a "threshold" past which it bothers me to the point that I have trouble enjoying the film. I can't quantify that threshold, but I don't seem to have much trouble figuring out when it's been crossed. Once it is, the 3D movie experience is wrecked. OTOH, I don't think I'd be willing to give up the native contrast of the JVC if the 3D DLP projector I had to watch couldn't even come close to matching it in that regard. If I had to choose the worse of the two evils, I'd probably choose a high native contrast that enhances almost every shot in a movie, but ghosts occasionally and only in certain types of shots, over a completely ghost-free but low contrast 3D experience that had the occasional rainbow in it. I'm basing that on seeing only one 3D DLP projector (the Acer 5360), so that's not a very good basis for generalizations (and Deja Vu tells me I may have seen a seriously compromised image because of DLP Link).

I do think that rainbow sensitivity and ghosting sensitivity may both be related to how well we can filter out things that bother us in an image. Some people have better filters than others. I know I can filter pretty well for rainbows, and less well for ghosting, but I'd rather not have to experience either.

Does that begin to address your question?

The 3D is solid. I ran my 5010 through the same scenes Zombie used and it's similar to the HW30 screenshots. Barely detectable ghosting. I'm using both the Epson glasses and the Panasonic 3rd gen EW3D3MU glasses. But having owned the Acer 5360, I'm after 1080p 3D perfection which is why I had planned on getting the BenQ until hearing about all the showstopping (literally) bugs. The W7000 is obviously not a finished product. As a recent owner told me "When I sit down to use it, I don't want to spend the first 30 minutes trying to get it into 3D mode." I'll check back on the BenQ in a couple months to see if they've fixed things. In the meantime, I might have a look at the Acer 9500.

The Epson 5010 also has pretty good native contrast and really good black levels in 2D, so you can't really go wrong with it if the 3D is clean. If the 3D on the Epson is clean, I think it is a better buy than the Panny 7000 (because the 2D will be better on the Epson, IMHO).

I still prefer the RS-45 over the Epsons for 2D anyhow, but I have never seen the 5010 (only 8500ub and 8700ub), and I do like the fact the 5010's best mode is much closer to LCOS best modes than it is old LCD best modes.

Coderguy,

The eye strain that you're experiencing isn't that unusual for someone getting into 3D for the first time. There's an adjustment period for some. Very probably, the more you watch, the better it will get. I'm lucky. I've never experienced eye strain, headaches or any adverse effects whatsoever, with any sort of 3D. I can also tolerate a great deal of separation without experiencing discomfort. Many aren't so fortunate. What I take from this is that peoples' eyes probably get stronger the more they watch 3D. I'm pretty sure that's happened to me, although I don't have any objective evidence. I hope you adjust, and I suspect you will if you continue to watch.

Those are my sentiments exactly! I thought about purchasing many of these projectors, but always hesitated because I've grown use to ghost free 3D and I'm not prepared play Russian Roulette every time I put a 3D movie on. Its a shame that the black level on the W7000 isn't better -- maybe I couldn't live with that either. I'm really surprised how good the black level is with the Acer 5360 in 3D mode with the Nvidia glasses on. It certainly isn't great, but for things like HTTYD, Priest and so on it works very well. There are a couple of dark scenes in Hubble where I was drawn out of the experience, but hey for $500 its tough to complain.

The Sony VW95 interests me, but again I don't want to end up buying a DLP for 3D -- the VW95 might be close, but no cigar. So for some, barely detectable ghosting just isn't clean and won't cut it.

If I decide to purchase a new projector it will be with 3D in mind and my order of preference right now are the following projectors:
Acer H9500BD;
Mits 7800; and
Benq W7000.

I'm really tempted to order the Acer this week -- who knows. I see RBE in 2D, but not in 3D so I'll be O.K. with that. I keep hesitating waiting for Art's reviews with respect to the last two on my list.

Thanks. Unfortunately, I think I missed my opportunity last Friday. They're closed this week, which I figured, but I thought I could get one contact to respond to emails, (assuming he checked), but nothing so far, I'm building out the basic review right now - the tour, performance measurements, etc., and overview page, and parts of image quality. But probably will have to wait until I can get a newer one in here. Though I'm still discovering stuff.

I really like the overall image - skin tones are really great, all that good DLP stuff, but the blacks are frustrating me. -art

Art. The BenQ has lumens to spare on most screens. A ND2 flipped in front for movies with dark scenes makes the blacks very competitive.

And if you have only watched various scenes from the 5th Element only say 100 times, you are not a "presenter", rather you are a pretender. I own a least 4 different copies of that film, two on DVD and two on Bluray since the first Bluray hads to be reissued. I might have more but at least 4.

I was like 8 years old when I saw my first laser disc, I think it was KRULL. Just remember that and playing the intellivision, somehow I picture Zombie has a retro-video room dedicated to 80's video technology.

The Epson is very nice For anyone on a budget. You can't go wrong. This thing is amazing. Again, best bang for the buck.

The 3D is Very bright! I tried many 3D movies and this is brighter then even my Acer and better in every regard (except ghosting of course) The ghosting is much better then the JVC. I tried my torture test clips such as Giants of Pantagoria, and the Epson did great with very little ghosting even on high brightness setting with the glasses.

2D is very punchy and almost DLP like. It's a different look when compared to LCOS. It lacks the smoothness and film like quality in favour of a more dynamic and punchy image reminiscent of an LCD or Plasma. Blacks are great, and about equal to the VW90, but the JVC still has the advantage in really dark scenes. Best black level overall goes to the Epson!! it can even beat the JVC (but, only on a total fade to black, were the iris closes completely) Overall the JVC still rules for absolute black level

I'll report more later after some extra testing. First impressions are good, and the Epson is really nice and in some ways better then the JVC lineup. It's a different look and it really comes down to preference. Do you want a smooth film like image, or a punchy more digital looking image?

I have this week off so I've been able to concentrate on personally evaluating 3D. My thanks go to several local dealers.

The following discussion uses Mark's Grand Canyon blu-ray disc to set basic 3D picture quality. Then to evaluate 3D resolution, ghosting, flicker, clear motion and finally the fatigue level. The widely available Sharp Elite Pro monitor is used as a reference.

3D Brightness
We are still in the early stages in evaluating and optimizing 3D picture quality. Test material is rare. Discs can be mastered for different levels of brightness (Note: this implies that 3D mastered discs should not be played pack in 2D). Let’s adjust 3D brightness before evaluating 3D picture quality. I use the Grand Canyon 3D station porch scene located at 11:23. Adjust in 3D mode with 3D glasses enabled. Of particular note are the wooden beams in the deep shadows of the train station porch ceiling.

For reference, playback this scene in 3D on the 60-70” Sharp Elite Pro monitor which is available at many high-end stores. Set to standard mode first and disable all unnecessary processing. The factory calibration is excellent and it clearly delineates all the timbers which un-optimized displays will hide. The scene is easily to remember and can be used to adjust the brightness/black and level on each candidate 3D projectors.

Resolution
Properly mastered 3D Blu-ray discs have increased resolution over 2D discs which can readily be observed with 3D glasses that allow instantly switching between 2D and 3D. It is instructive to switch between one and two camera perspective using the Sharp Elite glasses. Of particular note are projectors which use low resolving lens, as our eyes need to focus-lock on the natural high frequency detail.

Flickering
Eliminating flickering in 3D is just as important as it was 50 years ago for 2D. Increasing the display refresh rate and decreasing the shutter glasses closed period is helpful. Dynamic performance is important including the transient response of the LCD shutters glasses, the pixel transition, and the coordinated timing accuracy of the emitter/glasses pair.
Further LCD pixel response of the display pixels is about the same as the LCD shutter glasses so both can adversely interact as they constantly change state.
To observe flicker, pause on a high brightness scene then take the glasses off and back on.

Frame Interpolation
With celluloid film (grain causes artifacts) set to expire in the next year, 3D motion blur can be greatly reduced to compensate for too low of camera capture rates. Otherwise this distracting jerky effect forces our visual system work all the harder.

Fatigue
Watching 3D is like learning to ride a bicycle it take some practice and training. Riding long distances without fatigues requires a highly optimized system. So too does low fatigue 3D viewing. Any issue with a soft picture, flickering, motion blur combine to make for an unpleasant system.

Results
After my day out with the wife.

A word on the Sharp Elite and the Sharp 735:
I've lived with and compared the fidelity of these two fine displays. They both have identical levels and type of moderate ghosting and share similar levels of outstanding resolution, contrast and clarity. Motion blur is virtually eliminated. There is no flicker. The dark matte screen of the 735 rejects ambient light, whereas the local dimming of the Elite has its advantages in dark rooms. Regardless, my quest is to find a projector which matches this high standard of fidelity. Very difficult! That front projector technology usually lags is of no help.
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Update 12/29
I am forced to write of the major resolving deficiency of certain popular projectors.

The Threat From Large Flat Panels
Projector reviews should provide a close-up view of the pixel structure to reveal the resolving power of the optical system. This would document the major weakness of front projectors in competition from the new bright, 3D 70-80” flat panels. That is, the <1” panel is magnified to about 100” so flaws in the optical system can (finally) be evaluated.

The most technical and objective projector reviews unknowingly inhibit progress by publishing crosshatch pattern. While useful to document mis-convergence or chromatic aberration, these common errors are better off described in a few sentences.

Manufactures and reviewers should realize that front projectors are now beginning to compete with large, bright 80” 3D flat panels of unprecedented clarity. Improve now by publishing pictures of the projected pixel structure, captured with a DSLR with an excellent edge-to-edge sharp prime macro lens. The threat is the average consumer will see the (obvious) clarity difference and will choose the flat panel. Typically, in these situations, the industry will only “wake-up” after sales decline, assisted by fans that will defend their ‘king’ right into oblivion.

The situation is further exasperated by reviewers being furnished sample with excellent sharpness while the product consumers purchase is frankly speaking just plain film-like blurry.
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Update 12/30
Projector Central tells how to reduce flicker on the Mitsubishi 7800:
"Be aware that disabling 3D FRC (frame interpolation) will increase the amount of flicker in the picture, and we prefer to leave it enabled for this reason"

Projector Central gives a damming indictment of a weird, annoying type of noise that reduces resolution on the Sony 30:
"When compared to other projectors in its price range, the HW30ES shows more digital noise, especially in solid color areas like backgrounds and faces. The noise reduction system does a good job of combating this problem in standard definition, but HD content seems to throw it for a loop. Even with noise reduction at its maximum, the HW30ES still had a good deal of digital noise in HD. Noise reduces the three dimensionality of an image and can make it appear softer around the edges. It also gives the picture a slightly artificial appearance, lacking the film-like smoothness and natural character of the best cinema projectors we've seen. This digital look can be distracting to some, while others are not bothered by it."

I can't help but wonder if this harsh processing is related to how Sony is virtually able to eliminate ghosting.

Update 1/1/2012
Achieving Low Motion Blur, High Clarity and Fluidity
Our two eyes offer two independent data points which improve S/N ratio, depth perception and widens the field of view. So two does the discrimination ability of fine detail. This implies an increase of resolution, as our brain fuses the two data sources.
The roll-up term “clarity” in this context includes 2D and 3D static and motion resolution. Here is Consumer Reports observation for 2D motion clarity:
“MOTION BLUR. This model from Sharp includes AquoMotion 240 technology, which combines a 120Hz refresh rate with a scanning (flashing) backlight to create a 240Hz-like effect -- a feature intended to reduce motion blur, a shortcoming of most LCD TVs. With the feature turned on we found it reduced motion blur to the point where it's really not a problem with typical program content. With the AquoMotion 240 feature turned off, this TV showed significant blurring and loss of detail with our test patterns. Note that on typical video content the blurring effect is often fleeting and may not bother most people, but keen-eyed viewers may detect the loss of texture and detail on scenes with movement, especially in high-quality video such as a Blu-ray movie.”
Agreed. This prevents transitory motion artifacts which bother many experienced projector owners to no end. This is why I always leave this LED pulsing for my 2D 70” Sharp 735 flat panel. It, in a word, works! For projectors DLP has been the safe route - being largely free of motion blur/high clarity or fluidity.

For 3D, the active shutter glasses also perform a likewise similar service in preventing the viewer from seeing the 2 million liquid crystals changing state simultaneously. Properly implemented frame interpolation offers some intelligence because it knows where it was, where it is and where it is probably going to.
Does all this matter? I enjoy reading the observations of projectors novices as they can see just as good as the experts, yet offer a fresh and unbiased perspective. This year they have widely commented on the clarity of the new inexpensive 1080p DLP projectors.

Consumers should shop wisely for the new and exciting 3D technology, by taking advantage of the display’s which offer full 1080p 2D motion clarity, and the even higher clarity offered by Blu-ray 3D. While motion clarity largely ignored in this forum, it should be considered just as important as contrast and black level.

Why not the Epson 5010 or the RS45 over the Panny? If you want better contrast the Epson should be superior and the JVC even more superior than the Epson.

Meh..the jokes on you with that one!

Comments like this make me find a disturbance in the force...

I believe he thinks the 300,000:1 is real...

I could be wrong but I think Joker is a gamer and the Epson has around 80-88ms of input lag.

I have been talking to another forums member that owns the RS55 and he also has the Epson for just 3D usage and has told me he thinks the Epson is just as sharp as his RS55 in many regards and the black levels are spot-on. I think people are discounting this little guy because it is LCD-based and the white casing doesn't help

I was referring to the 300,000:1 ratio comment. Why do gamers even bother with the mid tier projectors? Why not get a simple unit with the least amount of processing?

Some still care very much about image quality... Aka me.

Be very carful with this. I know someone that thinks

JVC RS10
JVC RS45
Sony vpl-vw95
&
Samsung SP-A900B

All look very similar.

I notice big differences, but it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Gotcha. I think it goes along the lines of wanting your cake and eating it too I have been on the hunt for over a month trying to find a good gaming/3D projector that can be used as a secondary unit but so far everything released this year has some quirky issue that makes it good for either one or the other. 3D has complicated things tremendously this year.

SOWK - I completely agree with your comment, I was throwing out what an owner of both has been saying falls in-line with Conan and Tom when he reviewed both. After reading conflicting reviews from PC, Art's reviews, people on these forums and my own personal experiences (I've owned a lot of units this year) it is pretty apparant that there are many factors in reviewing these new 3D units. What zombie and Mark have done in this thread is great for people trying to make a decision since they had all the projectors at the same time.

Just had a member of the forum over last night viewing the RS45 for 5 hours.
He's viewed both the Sony 95 and the Epson 6010. From his comments, the 6010 isn't that great and he wasn't wowed by it at all.

On the other hand the Sony VW95 looked impressive! But after seeing my unit. He said there was no need to waste my time. As the image quality for 2D was so close, I probably wouldn't find it a true upgrade for 2D movies.

Then use a simpler unit for gaming. lol
Save the vw95 for serious watching.

Does anyone know if zombie put the HW30 in game mode when testing for input lag? i notice a large difference when i put it into game mode with all processing disabled, and the lag seems similar or better than my Samsung C7000.

@Epson vs. JVC vs. Sony vs. DLP
It depends on what scenes you compare to how any projector will look, that's the just of it. The advantage of the JVC and the Sony's is it has no real weakness in any given scene and is very consistent. It gets you pretty much 80% to 90% or more of that DLP POP in most cases, but in average lighting it starts passing DLP up, and in dark scenes it of course beats the other stuff if you feed it the right content.

I've quite a bit of experience with Epson 8700ub and 8500ub, I've set one up for someone and owned a couple myself, but I do not know if the 5010 look different other than being brighter. The Epsons are very good at certain types of content, but there are still many cases where I prefer the LCOS look. Certain types of scenes sometimes make LCD get close to DLP. IMHO, LCD has the most trouble with distant bright scenery shots, bright sunsets, water, fast changes in lighting, and stuff like that, sometimes it will look a bit flat, not sure why. I'm not saying this same weakness applies to the Epson 5010, I don't know. In darker scenes, I don't think LCD has much disadvantage if the native contrast were at the same levels. This is because in darker content the pixel fill is not visible at all (remember that just because you cannot always see the pixel fill in bright scenes does not mean it isn't changing the look of the image somewhat).

DLP tends to excel in gaming, sports, bright scenery shots, animated films, and stuff like that.

I have never seen an RS10. As to the others, its amazing how much different they look. Though I haven't had a 95ESto play with, switching betwen the HW30 and the Samsung (after careful set up and matching) was like looking at two diiferent sources as was the case as switching between the RS45 and the Samsung.

Different, very different, but nevertheless all very good.

I haven't starting switching between the Benq 7000 and the Samsung yet, Last night I watched the Laker game on the BenQ and I felt no need to switch to the Samsung. BenQ was really bright, sharp, and the colors were spot on to my eyes (haven't calibrated it to my screen yet). Watch part of Cars on it in 2D. Worked fine and was enjoyable viewing wise.

Tried 3D a bit on the Benq and BC had to be on or the colors would be really wrong. It is annoying changing settings in 3D but the machine didn't lock up, just takes patience to outwait the err hang up time.

I need to play some more in 3D. Last night my eyes were tired for the 3D and I wasn't seeing a lot of 3D depth that I saw on the RS45 watching the same material.

O.K you've got me! I have had good luck with Epson (one of the few I would guess! ) and I'm interested in what your overall impressions are since you are well versed as to "ghosting" and what Sony and JVC offer. What are the black levels like on the Epson without an active DI in 3D? Ghosting -- just how does it pan out? Are you content watching 3D material with the Epson or do you still require a cleaner image? How does the Epson in 3D compare to the little 720p Acer overall? Is it worth it as an upgrade or would I just be trading lower resolution etc, for another set of issues?

Thanks for any help.