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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 8

post #211 of 3271
Zombie you tested with BC on or off?
post #212 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miahallen View Post

Thanks Zombie...I also was not happy with comfort, the other cons you mentioned were livable IMO....but I just sold mine as well. Just curous as I've never had the pleasure of viewing one of these nice projectors.

I could also have lived with the other cons, but the weight and fit is like a torture device for me.

if you want to get into a nice 3D projector for not much $$, take a look at the Optoma 750GT projector. It's bright and also has ghost free 3D. The bonus is that it has a 3D VESA Port for 'bring your own emitter and glasses'. It also has built in HDMI 1.4 support, so you can directly connect a 3D BD player.

These are quite cheap in the US.
post #213 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Zombie you tested with BC on or off?

Both


Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

For some reason almost every DLP I have owned has had a red cast the first 100-200 hours that fades.

It also seemed like the brighter the projector, the more red cast. The Mits hc4000 had a red cast at first, the Benq w1200 sometimes does, and the Viewsonic Pro8200 has a MAJOR red cast at first. On my VS, it's already faded drastically at 500 hours, and it continues to fade a bit. I am now able to calibrate out of it, before it was there no matter what I did.

This isn't a red cast to the image (I had the gray scale nailed @ D65).. this red cast is on the black floor once 3D mode was engaged. This was not present during 2D content. My guess is that it's the color that activates the DLP link glasses. I believe on the Acer it's a white flash which is why some claim it ruins the contrast with dlplink on the 5360.

While not great, I thought the black level on the 5360 using the Nvidia 3D vision glasses was decent and not the first thing that stands out for me on that projector. It's primarily the softness of the lens and the 720P resolution on my big screen that was a bummer once I saw the 1080P projectors that had a 1/2 decent lens.

Plus I don't like the strong color tint of the Nvidia glasses. it's probably the worst tint on any of my 3D glasses. I might sell the 5360 and pick up that 750GT just for 3D console games since I can use the MV3D's with it.
post #214 of 3271
I can't watch 720p projectors anymore to be honest.
post #215 of 3271
I want to be able to say I can't watch 720p projectors anymore too.
Does the w7000 lockup/wait happen if you switch between hdmi ports 1 and 2? If you have a 2d source on 1 and a 3d source on 2 and switch back and forth?
post #216 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Well in an attempt to answer your question Art, I am not RBE sensitive but can make myself see it on certain units if I try. As far as ghosting goes, from the first time I saw Avatar on a 73" Mitsu DLP at HHGregg and compared that to their flagship Panny flatscreen I knew that I would never accept any level of ghosting. To this very day I spot it just about immediately on TVs at BB or wherever. They are getting much better though I must admit.

As far as the W7000, I am not averse to spending a bit more than the Acer but not at the expense of having to pay shipping back and forth to service the unit for the problems it has. Any idea when you will posting up about the W7000 and what you heard from Benq regarding the issues?

Thanks. Unfortunately, I think I missed my opportunity last Friday. They're closed this week, which I figured, but I thought I could get one contact to respond to emails, (assuming he checked), but nothing so far, I'm building out the basic review right now - the tour, performance measurements, etc., and overview page, and parts of image quality. But probably will have to wait until I can get a newer one in here. Though I'm still discovering stuff.

I really like the overall image - skin tones are really great, all that good DLP stuff, but the blacks are frustrating me. -art
post #217 of 3271
Hello Art. I believe you somehow reposted a reply. No worries. I called Projector People today to see what they had to say. They have nothing except a couple are on their way back. They pretty much said the fastest way to find out how Benq was going to address any problems would probably be here on AVS, so that leaves you. I won't go into details about our conversation but suffice it to say that the bottom line is that some manufacturers are more responsive than others in this area. Let history be your guide is the basic gist of it.
post #218 of 3271
Did you notice any excessive noise in shadows and darker scenes on the Sony? It appears similar to film grain and was a deal breaker for me on all the previous SXRD projectors I've looked at (vw70, vw85, hw15). Normally this sort of thing can be hidden by tweaking gamma but I never had much luck fixing it. I think it was caused by some kind of dithering they do on dark colors. JVC also dithers colors for their PWM drive but theirs is not visible from normal viewing distance.

Sony's also tended to show more compression artifacts than other projectors I've looked at. Combined with the dither, they never produced the clean image that I'm used to from JVC and Epson units.
post #219 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

Did you notice any excessive noise in shadows and darker scenes on the Sony? It appears similar to film grain and was a deal breaker for me on all the previous SXRD projectors I've looked at (vw70, vw85, hw15). Normally this sort of thing can be hidden by tweaking gamma but I never had much luck fixing it. I think it was caused by some kind of dithering they do on dark colors. JVC also dithers colors for their PWM drive but theirs is not visible from normal viewing distance.

Sony's also tended to show more compression artifacts than other projectors I've looked at. Combined with the dither, they never produced the clean image that I'm used to from JVC and Epson units.

I had a VW70 and went from it to the HW30 and my HW30 did not have the bad artifacts or grain with black scenes/pure black backgrounds.
post #220 of 3271
I had the same issue on the vw70, that is the main reason I returned it. It also had a convergence/sharpness issue. Sony did fix this apparently. It was partly related to gamma, but also partly processing, you could hide the error with a Video Processor, but not get rid of it completely from what I read. It also made the internal CMS completely useless, if you tried to use the CMS it made it worse. I think if the hw30 had this problem, people would have been complaining loud and clear.
post #221 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Hello Art. I believe you somehow reposted a reply. No worries. I called Projector People today to see what they had to say. They have nothing except a couple are on their way back. They pretty much said the fastest way to find out how Benq was going to address any problems would probably be here on AVS, so that leaves you. I won't go into details about our conversation but suffice it to say that the bottom line is that some manufacturers are more responsive than others in this area. Let history be your guide is the basic gist of it.

Hi again Mikey2Cent! (you have a rap career ahead of you with this minor variation on your avatar?)

I heard back from BenQ about an hour ago, basically a relay of some info from Taiwan. Good news one and all. I'll pass on what's useful:

The Cyan dip we reported: to be corrected with Jan firmware (well there goes the usefulness of our published settings - maybe)

Flicker issues (don't know if the ones that shipped had them, but mine did, - coming out of 3D. That too, fixed

The aspect ratio shift problem I mentioned is a non-problem. Turns out it's a DirecTV problem with their switch to HD res guides and menus. It's now happened on another projector and a year old Sony LCDTV that has never done it before.

Remote control freezing. They cant duplicate, and it only happened twice on my 0.22 firmware. Since no one else has reported, we can forget about that too, unless it resurfaces

I reported instances of saved settings in User 1 briefly going back to default, then reappearing as set. They acknowledged that one also with a Jan F/W fix!

Now, no surprises with that stuff. As I said, most of the headaches go away with production software, but figure even 1.x isn't perfect.

That brings us to the two most important items:::

1. Black level performance: Per Taiwan:
"We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same".

If that's the case (and they only said "latest unit"), then future units or some in the pipeline must have improved blacks relative to what I'm seeing here, which were disappointing.

2. That brings us to Firmware, and how to get the latest, ie. user updatable?: That I didn't get an answer on at all, so I replied to the email, saying, that's what all you guys on the fence are waiting to hear. If there's an easy ability to update firmware, many people likely will "get off the fence."

That's it for now. Drop by my site, I do have to spend a lot more time posting there, than here, and therefore, it's usually more timely. -a
post #222 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Thanks to WhiteTrash66 for recommending the 'Gaming' Mode. I've often skipped over this preset and don't think about it much.

I went back and did 10 samples. The average is now about 30ms in 'Gaming' mode. When you change this mode, the screen flashes for a second, almost like the processing is changing. Colors on my HTPC still look fine, I don't see any real difference in the image.

There were some 20's and some 40's, but on average, it looks to be about 30ms in this mode.





post #223 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Hi again Mikey2Cent! (you have a rap career ahead of you with this minor variation on your avatar?)

I heard back from BenQ about an hour ago, basically a relay of some info from Taiwan. Good news one and all. I'll pass on what's useful:

The Cyan dip we reported: to be corrected with Jan firmware (well there goes the usefulness of our published settings - maybe)

Flicker issues (don't know if the ones that shipped had them, but mine did, - coming out of 3D. That too, fixed

The aspect ratio shift problem I mentioned is a non-problem. Turns out it's a DirecTV problem with their switch to HD res guides and menus. It's now happened on another projector and a year old Sony LCDTV that has never done it before.

Remote control freezing. They cant duplicate, and it only happened twice on my 0.22 firmware. Since no one else has reported, we can forget about that too, unless it resurfaces

I reported instances of saved settings in User 1 briefly going back to default, then reappearing as set. They acknowledged that one also with a Jan F/W fix!

Now, no surprises with that stuff. As I said, most of the headaches go away with production software, but figure even 1.x isn't perfect.

That brings us to the two most important items:::

1. Black level performance: Per Taiwan:
"We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same".

If that's the case (and they only said "latest unit"), then future units or some in the pipeline must have improved blacks relative to what I'm seeing here, which were disappointing.

2. That brings us to Firmware, and how to get the latest, ie. user updatable?: That I didn't get an answer on at all, so I replied to the email, saying, that's what all you guys on the fence are waiting to hear. If there's an easy ability to update firmware, many people likely will "get off the fence."

That's it for now. Drop by my site, I do have to spend a lot more time posting there, than here, and therefore, it's usually more timely. -a

Good info there Art and thanks for it. Not interested in the rap thing cause I pretty much loathe rap but chuckled when I thought about your comment on my username. I am glad they say the blacks will be as good as the 6k because I believe that will be good enough for me.
As for dropping by your site you get a lot of hits from me for sure. Heck I even bought my 8350 based on your review and a few others. A good unit but alas I realize I prefer DLP. At least for now and my budget.

As for the user FW update, I do not see them changing at all which means no. So I suppose the big question for me is whether to try the unit now or wait. I have no problem buying it now but do not feel I should have to pay to ship it somewhere to get it right. This thing will painlessly fall into my man cave while the Acer 9500 will require some minor surgery. The Hd33/3300 will require extensive surgery.

I almost bought this unit before Xmas and missed the 3PM deadline and decide to wait. Now I guess I should wait until all the first run is gone and save some headaches or what? Thanks again and will check out your site for the latest.
post #224 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Hi again Mikey2Cent! (you have a rap career ahead of you with this minor variation on your avatar?)

I heard back from BenQ about an hour ago, basically a relay of some info from Taiwan. Good news one and all. I'll pass on what's useful:

The Cyan dip we reported: to be corrected with Jan firmware (well there goes the usefulness of our published settings - maybe)

Flicker issues (don't know if the ones that shipped had them, but mine did, - coming out of 3D. That too, fixed

The aspect ratio shift problem I mentioned is a non-problem. Turns out it's a DirecTV problem with their switch to HD res guides and menus. It's now happened on another projector and a year old Sony LCDTV that has never done it before.

Remote control freezing. They cant duplicate, and it only happened twice on my 0.22 firmware. Since no one else has reported, we can forget about that too, unless it resurfaces

I reported instances of saved settings in User 1 briefly going back to default, then reappearing as set. They acknowledged that one also with a Jan F/W fix!

Now, no surprises with that stuff. As I said, most of the headaches go away with production software, but figure even 1.x isn't perfect.

That brings us to the two most important items:::

1. Black level performance: Per Taiwan:
"We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same".

If that's the case (and they only said "latest unit"), then future units or some in the pipeline must have improved blacks relative to what I'm seeing here, which were disappointing.

2. That brings us to Firmware, and how to get the latest, ie. user updatable?: That I didn't get an answer on at all, so I replied to the email, saying, that's what all you guys on the fence are waiting to hear. If there's an easy ability to update firmware, many people likely will "get off the fence."

That's it for now. Drop by my site, I do have to spend a lot more time posting there, than here, and therefore, it's usually more timely. -a

What about people reporting it taking a long time switching between 2D and 3D whereby menus are frozen?

Also, I think you posted on your blog that the lumens when watching 3D (without glasses) was low in comparison to the projector having 2000 lumens and that you were going to ask about them offering an option of a brighter 3D picture mode for people to choose from that takes more advantage of the 2000 lumens?

Re: "We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same", it would be nice if they indicated what firmware version the W7000 they did the test on had (if it was more recent than 1.0 firmware that people on the forum received).

Can you also ask them how to get into the service menu?
post #225 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Thanks to WhiteTrash66 for recommending the 'Gaming' Mode. I've often skipped over this preset and don't think about it much.

I went back and did 10 samples. The average is now about 30ms in 'Gaming' mode. When you change this mode, the screen flashes for a second, almost like the processing is changing. Colors on my HTPC still look fine, I don't see any real difference in the image.

There were some 20's and some 40's, but on average, it looks to be about 30ms in this mode.


...

What type of test is this and how is it run?
post #226 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

What type of test is this and how is it run?

It measures how fast a projector (or any display for that matter) displays the information that being fed to it. For movies, this is irrelevant, but gamers take these measurements seriously. When you combine the lag time of the internet connection to the server, the lower the ms of lag time, the better.

In fast paced games, milliseconds is the difference between a kill, or being killed.

in order to run the test, it's recommended to use a high quality CRT as the baseline since there is little to no lag on this display. The screen on the computer is split between the 2 screens. Then you take a high speed picture with a camera to capture both images at the same time. The time that the projector shows 'behind' the time of the CRT is the lag time of the display.

As we found out, different modes have different effects.

It's interesting to think that Sony might have taken this into consideration being that they also make a popular gaming console. I have no idea if there is a connection, but 30ms is pretty good.
post #227 of 3271
Thanks for going the distance Art. I had my BenQ completely freeze on me coming out of 3D mode and the remote was not responsive. This is through a Denon 4311ci and using a Samsung bluray player (never had any issues with nunerous other 3D projectors.). Did you by chance mention the dimness in 3D compared to 2D output? I know the glasses cut light output but mine seemed abnormally dark.

If they allow users to update the firmware I would probably keep this unit for the 3D.
post #228 of 3271
Did I mention on here how much I absolutely hate HDCP? I still have issues with my 3 year old TV and my equipment. Enough said.
post #229 of 3271
My cinema room is fairly small, 14ft maximum from front to back wall. My DaLite CV 1.3 110" (96" wide) is mounted 6" from the front wall. I suspect the HW30 would sit very close to the rear wall (wall/shelf mount) at 7ft lens height. This leaves a little over 11.5ft throw distance. Seated viewing is between 10-12ft from the screen.

1.

a) How does the HW30 image clarity stack up to the RS45 @ 10-12ft viewing (8ft screen width)?

b) At what viewing point would the HW30 image clarity degrade to the point where perhaps the RS45 would be much better?

===

2.
How is the perceived 3D brightness (viewer wearing the glasses) of the HW30 compared to the RS45?

Thanks in advance! Time is running out for me to make a decision! I had a RS40, now considering my options.
post #230 of 3271
Those questions are sort of impossible to answer, partly due to convergence variance and sweet spot mounting favoritism (did I really say that), some seem to think the sharpness is the same.

If you want better 3D, lower gaming lag, better lamps, better FI, almost the same brightness as a trade for worse black levels, I think the hw30 is your ticket.

I'll let others weigh in...
post #231 of 3271
You rock, thanks. 30ms would be fantastic. So, now this PJ goes to the top of my list!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Thanks to WhiteTrash66 for recommending the 'Gaming' Mode. I've often skipped over this preset and don't think about it much.

I went back and did 10 samples. The average is now about 30ms in 'Gaming' mode. When you change this mode, the screen flashes for a second, almost like the processing is changing. Colors on my HTPC still look fine, I don't see any real difference in the image.

There were some 20's and some 40's, but on average, it looks to be about 30ms in this mode.
post #232 of 3271
Hi,
Fantastic work Zombie!
This is the way to compare projectors from different brands!
You should be a reviewer Actually you are!
Thanks again
post #233 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

The BenQ, at least on my screen, was brighter than the Sony HW30 and the BenQ was sharper. Contrast was significantly better on the HW30 but I need to do some more tests and settings to see if I can optimize the contrast more on the BenQ.

This is the understatement of the year. It was difficult if not impossible to see the pixel structure with either of two HW30 samples. With the focus being adjustment on one. This confirms Tom Huffman was exactly correct and immediately discarded the Sony 30ES from consideration.

** I think we need a big pause here. Who cares about excellent 3D when the resolving power of the projector is inferior? We need to get the basics done right first. **

Then there is the issue of reviewers reporting their sample as very sharp (no doubt it was).

Everyone here needs to realize that we have a natural bias toward front projectors. This is the danger and limits our thinking to inside the box, while the world is setting up to pass us by (well not me actually).

The Threat from Large Flat Panels
Projector reviews should provide a close-up view of the pixel structure to reveal the resolving power of the optical system. This would document the major weakness of front projectors in competition from the new bright, CLEAR 3D 70-80 flat panels. That is the <1 panel is magnified to about 100 so flaws in the optical system can (finally) be evaluated.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21406828
post #234 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Thanks to WhiteTrash66 for recommending the 'Gaming' Mode. I've often skipped over this preset and don't think about it much.

I went back and did 10 samples. The average is now about 30ms in 'Gaming' mode. When you change this mode, the screen flashes for a second, almost like the processing is changing. Colors on my HTPC still look fine, I don't see any real difference in the image.

There were some 20's and some 40's, but on average, it looks to be about 30ms in this mode.

Big thanks! This may be the tipping point for hw30 over the jvc for me...
post #235 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

This is the understatement of the year. It was difficult if not impossible to see the pixel structure with either of two HW30 samples. With the focus being adjustment on one. This confirms Tom Huffman was exactly correct and immediately discarded the Sony 30ES from consideration.

** I think we need a big pause here. Who cares about excellent 3D when the resolving power of the projector is inferior? We need to get the basics done right first. **

Then there is the issue of reviewers reporting their sample as very sharp (no doubt it was).

Everyone here needs to realize that we have a natural bias toward front projectors. This is the danger and limits our thinking to inside the box, while the world is setting up to pass us by (well not me actually).

The Threat from Large Flat Panels
Projector reviews should provide a close-up view of the pixel structure to reveal the resolving power of the optical system. This would document the major weakness of front projectors in competition from the new bright, CLEAR 3D 70-80 flat panels. That is the <1 panel is magnified to about 100 so flaws in the optical system can (finally) be evaluated.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21406828

I do not think you can conclude that resolution of a projector is inferior to another just based on whether one resolves the pixel grid better than the other.

As a good example, consider what the grid looks like with eshift on the RS55 versus no eshift. Most owners are reporting that the resolution seems to increase and the pj looks sharper with it on. Yet the pixel grid is completely gone with eshift on. From this we can deduce that a visible pixel grid is not a good measure of how well a pj can resolve resolution.

The grid is also hard to resolve on the VW95 and multiple owners have reported this. With perfect focus and convergence you can make the grid out bu just partially, and even then it is faint. It looks like a merger between the RS55 grid with eshift on and with eshift off, based on screen shots that have been posted. Yet the VW95 still passes the vertical and horizontal HD resolution tests just fine and looks razor sharp, with an extreme level of fine detail unlike what I have seen on previous pjs that I have owned.
post #236 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

I do not think you can conclude that resolution of a projector is inferior to another just based on whether one resolves the pixel grid better than the other.

As a good example, consider what the grid looks like with eshift on the RS55 versus no eshift. Most owners are reporting that the resolution seems to increase and the pj looks sharper with it on. Yet the pixel grid is completely gone with eshift on. From this we can deduce that a visible pixel grid is not a good measure of how well a pj can resolve resolution.

The grid is also hard to resolve on the VW95 and multiple owners have reported this. With perfect focus and convergence you can make the grid out bu just partially, and even then it is faint. It looks like a merger between the RS55 grid with eshift on and with eshift off, based on screen shots that have been posted. Yet the VW95 still passes the vertical and horizontal HD resolution tests just fine and looks razor sharp, with an extreme level of fine detail unlike what I have seen on previous pjs that I have owned.

+1, imo, he is way off base and taking Tom's statement completely out of context.

Last night I watched scenes from Blade, The Matrix and opening of Dark Knight on my 142" @ 1.25 SW and the HW30 is as every bit sharp from this close seating distance as the other projectors i've seen recently.

I'll be comparing it directly to the RS55 tonight. I expect the RS55 will have the same sharpness as my RS50 which was exceptional.
post #237 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

You rock, thanks. 30ms would be fantastic. So, now this PJ goes to the top of my list!

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus74 View Post

Hi,
Fantastic work Zombie!
This is the way to compare projectors from different brands!
You should be a reviewer Actually you are!
Thanks again

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Big thanks! This may be the tipping point for hw30 over the jvc for me...

no problem, it does look like Sony put some thought into this 'gaming' mode. Even the desktop response is quick in this mode (moving windows around quickly), there is no perceivable lag between the CRT and the projector.

game on!!
post #238 of 3271
I trust what Zombie says about sharpness. I think it is sharp enough for most.

When I ordered my JVC, I was only expecting sharpness to be equal to a Sanyo z3000 or Sanyo z4000, I was blown away after running a full day of sharpness tests that the JVC RS-45 was actually more in line with a Mits hc7000 LCD and even passing up some cheap DLP's in sharpness like the lower-end Optomas. I think both Sony and JVC's have gotten sharper over the past few years.

I've posted one pattern I use below, I have a bunch of other patterns that are more technical, but this one is kind of fun...
You would need the original BITMAP file though, this is JPEG and wouldn't work right.

Sharpness Test
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4...rpnesstest.jpg

...
post #239 of 3271
I don't think sharpness has ever been the strength of SXRD. It kind of blends pixels together.

Seems like the HW30 has a somewhat poor lens also. From comments above it doesn't seem to be a big deal for film based material, but I wonder what sports look like on it? Sharpness is important there for me.

Also a shame that the DI doesn't work in 3D mode, that drops the contrast right down into a few thousand to one.
post #240 of 3271
The JVC LCOS has gotten sharper, the test patterns I use show both text and video sharpness at the same time (look how the circuit board shows dimensionality sharpness). Also the uneven blending lines is intentional, because you will see the real affects of uneven CA and convergence and how they affect video and text almost immediately when split-screening that test pattern to a LAPTOP and another projector at the same time. It is not pretty, granite, but it does the job. Just a quick thing I made years ago.

I used laptop + 2 projectors split screen to do my sharpness tests.
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