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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 79

post #2341 of 3271
3/7/12 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

For those of you who have taken measurements in 3D, can you explain a bit more about the process of taking measurements through the glasses?

I tried calibrating 3D over the weekend and it didn't go too well. But I think the issue is that I had the 3D glasses on with the shutter opening/closing. With hindsight I think this caused a the readings to frequently be inaccurate or just plain wacky due to the shutter opening and closing while the meter was trying to get a measurement.

Then I started thinking about it - maybe you are supposed to just leave the glasses off? My plan next time is to put the pj into 3D mode as I did before, but I will leave the glasses off while I am measuring through them.

My thought is this - the lens of the glasses has two states: either its open or its closed. And it is closed electronically, which means it needs to be powered on to reach the closed state. But when powered off, it is essentially locked in the open state.

Therefore this would suggest that when open, the glasses have the same color characteristics (color shift, effect on brightness) than it does when the glasses are powered off. And thereby that should mean I am OK to measure the 3D with the glasses off.

For reference I am measuring the the Monster glasses. I assume it doesn't matter which lens (left or right) I measure through since they are identical (unlike with the VIP glasses which I suppose will cause its own 3D measurement challenges).

Does all this make sense?

when I tried this a few weeks ago, I was using the Chroma 5 pro meter behind the glasses. it worked fairly well, I was getting consistent readings with the glasses turned on. What meter are you using?

The problem I see is that some of the glasses are different with the shutters activated vs. the off state. I think the factory Sony glasses are a good example. IMO, they look noticeably different tint wise once they are on.

The MV3D's seem be the same on or off.
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post #2342 of 3271
3/7/12 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

john- that's interesting, I thought several people tried the 104's on the Epson with similar results to the factory glasses, I don't recall anyone stating it was a noticeable improvement.

have you tried them with other movies? if it looks good with happy feet 2, then it should be good for everything else.. this movie is a great 3D torture test.

Hello

Yes the other movies looked great to(a little bit darker)

But i test it tonight some more because i was tired yesterday.

Maybe it was a wrong conclusion we will see.

Best regards .
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post #2343 of 3271
3/7/12 at 11:17pm
I would be interested to hear how Hugo is handled on these projectors. Perhapse for round 2?
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post #2344 of 3271
3/8/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

I would be interested to hear how Hugo is handled on these projectors. Perhapse for round 2?

We already know and this has been discussed.
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post #2345 of 3271
3/9/12 at 2:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

We already know and this has been discussed.

Really? great. I searched through Zombies post and didn't see anything. would you mind linking the information?

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread for awhile and I am curious.
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post #2346 of 3271
3/9/12 at 4:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Really? great. I searched through Zombies post and didn't see anything. would you mind linking the information?

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread for awhile and I am curious.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...382091&page=72

See post #2147.
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post #2347 of 3271
3/9/12 at 6:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Really? great. I searched through Zombies post and didn't see anything. would you mind linking the information?

Sorry I haven't been reading the thread for awhile and I am curious.

There is a Link in the top right corner of each post to directly refer to it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21695604
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Jason,
I been patiently waiting for you to make the definitive observations about the BenQ W7000. Did I miss it?
Can you insert yourself right-smack-dab-in-the-middle between Projector Central and Projector Reviews differing opinions on black level?
Also tell us the best glasses as I read the stock ones aren't too comfortable. Thanks!
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post #2348 of 3271
3/9/12 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
I haven't posted much about the replacement W7000 because my lens assembly is damaged. It's rocking back and forth about 1/8" and can't get the entire screen focused without rigging it.

The engineer @ benQ is going to swap it out once he can confirm the latest firmware. They know people are on the fence with a purchasing decision until more info is available on the latest firmware.

I can still run through the glasses screenshots, i'll likely use Happy Feet 2 since there is so much white, it's easy to tell the tint difference between the various glasses. So far my favorite DLP link glasses are the Optoma ZD201's. It's a shame they aren't easy to get a hold of. Importing from Amazon UK is about $120 with the shipping.
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post #2349 of 3271
3/9/12 at 8:11am
So what are the favored rechargable 3d glasses? I'd rather buy movies than button batteries. The glasses for my sony 3d display are rechargable. Just plug them in and by the time your done making popcorn your good for a whole movie.
I just checked online button batteries are only about a dollar each in packs of 5. Thats almost 400 hours of 3d for 5 bucks. The sony rechargable glasses are heavy and will destroy your nose. Plastic surgery for my nose will be a bit more. Sony glasses also have high gloss reflections inside and out. Really just horrible glasses. But they are rechargable.
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post #2350 of 3271
3/9/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

...The engineer @ benQ is going to swap it out once he can confirm the latest firmware. They know people are on the fence with a purchasing decision until more info is available on the latest firmware.
...

It's probably not going to be good news if it's taking them this long to get back to you.

Thank you for doing this. I'm too, also on the fence. I was going to get a 6010 but decided to wait for the W7000. I hope that it's not going to be long now.
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post #2351 of 3271
3/9/12 at 9:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctn View Post

It's probably not going to be good news if it's taking them this long to get back to you.

Thank you for doing this. I'm too, also on the fence. I was going to get a 6010 but decided to wait for the W7000. I hope that it's not going to be long now.

I was just able to get in touch with the head engineer in their US office who is following up with their HQ to find out the details. time zone differences, etc. I expect to hear something by early next week.
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post #2352 of 3271
3/9/12 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcadia88 View Post

So what are the favored rechargable 3d glasses? I'd rather buy movies than button batteries. The glasses for my sony 3d display are rechargable. Just plug them in and by the time your done making popcorn your good for a whole movie.
I just checked online button batteries are only about a dollar each in packs of 5. Thats almost 400 hours of 3d for 5 bucks. The sony rechargable glasses are heavy and will destroy your nose. Plastic surgery for my nose will be a bit more. Sony glasses also have high gloss reflections inside and out. Really just horrible glasses. But they are rechargable.

Well, I decided I actually prefer glasses that require button/coin batteries - The rechargable glasses have non-replaceable batteries that WILL eventually wear out, whether they're Lithium Ion or not... if there is no way to get at the battery to de-solder it and replace it without breaking open the glasses, then what do you do - throw those $100 glasses away? At least with the replaceable button batteries, you can forever replace the batteries with fresh ones... The Epson glasses I have state a battery life of up to 80 hours, so I conservatively figure at least 30+ movies on a single battery... That's quite a few months between battery changes for me...

I will eventually have about 8 pairs of glasses for my projector, so I plan to purchase the larger lots of batteries off eBay, lots of 20 or 50; you can still get name-brand CR2032 batteries like Sony, which will still hold a longer charge than the no-names, for closer to 30 cents a battery in larger lots... so that is really a negligable cost. Those coin batteries have a shelf life of 10+ years, so just buy a big lot of fresh batteries and store them for convenient use.
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post #2353 of 3271
3/9/12 at 10:57am
Thanks for the info Frey. I did not know it could be that cheap. It seems it really is a non issue. Gloss is a no no. Sony really likes glossy reflective stuff.
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post #2354 of 3271
3/9/12 at 8:36pm
Thought you guys may want to see this since most of you are comparing 3d of these projectors.

There is a solution to do Passive without the need of a Silver screen. You can do any surface.

Also the Ghosting is non existent I have done many of the test and it past with flying colors.

Here is the post in the ultimate 3d thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21759014

Check it out. Zombie you can now take the rs55 and make it ghost free
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post #2355 of 3271
3/9/12 at 8:52pm
For those who haven't seen this review of the 5010.

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Epso...66/Review.html

I don't agree with the reference score for 3D -- too generous. The 3D can be excellent or only good depending on "ghosting" problems the projector has with the material. this, IMO, is strictly a problem with the projector.
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post #2356 of 3271
3/9/12 at 10:17pm
3d is great on the epson. Much better than the Acer 5360 that some folks just cant let go of...
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post #2357 of 3271
3/10/12 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I haven't posted much about the replacement W7000 because my lens assembly is damaged. It's rocking back and forth about 1/8" and can't get the entire screen focused without rigging it.

The engineer @ benQ is going to swap it out once he can confirm the latest firmware. They know people are on the fence with a purchasing decision until more info is available on the latest firmware.

I know you and others spoke about loss of 1:1 pixel mapping.
My sample of the Acer 9500 reduced contrast at the highest frequencies. That is, windows file explorer text went from black, white, black to black, grey, black. Certainly not 1:1 pixel mapping

Other perceptive reviewers find loss of 1:1 pixels mapping with other 3D DLP products:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2395279,00.asp

The evidence indicates there is a trade-offs between brightness, 1:1 pixel mapping, crosstalk, contrast and black level. The further any single area is optimized the more the others suffer. It explains the confusion, as I believe everyone is accurately reporting their observations.

I've noticed that 99% of consumers do not initially realize they have lost 1:1 mapping. Similar to the pink slime issue I guess! Perhaps why I only buy ground beef from Costco?
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post #2358 of 3271
3/10/12 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by steevo123 View Post

3d is great on the epson. Much better than the Acer 5360 that some folks just cant let go of...

I own both and have compared both to each other. I prefer the Acer for movies like Happy Feet 2 because it shows no ghosting whatsoever while my Ep[son 6010 does. It is a toss up with Sammy's Adventures, which has some slight annoying ghosting. Other material, which is virtually ghost-free on the Epson like Immortals, Despicable Me, Harry Potter, Tintin etc. look great and it wins, but the Acer is a saviour with the tougher material. There are people out there who don't think the Epson "ghosts". They need to educate themselves. For me, ghosting simply ruins the experience, even a little ghosting that others wouldn't notice. Once I see any I'm done! There are some 3D movies I will only show on the Acer to friends because these movies reveal the ghosting flaws of my much more expensive Epson.
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post #2359 of 3271
3/10/12 at 7:59am
Thread Starter 
I want to make it clear (pun intended) that my first W7000 did NOT have any issues with 1:1 pixel mapping. I use an HTPC and issues like this would stick out like a sore thumb.

My first W7000 was as razor sharp as my W6000 and SP890 at work (same chassis, same lens). There are only a small # of reports of the softness in 2D mode and at least 2 members had theirs swapped out with a version that was noticeably sharper than the original they had. PC nor Art mentioned any issues with their particular copies.

The BenQ engineer emailed back last night and said they are actively testing for this in their lab in CA and requesting the engineers at their HQ to validate as well. I think it's great that they are listening to customers & their dealers.

With the price now being more competitive to the 9500, brighter, faster color wheel, better lens shift, full color controls, etc I have no problem waiting a bit longer now that we have their attention.

on a different topic, I spent some time with various DLP link glasses on the Acer 5360. It looks like the ultra clears don't work with the Acer, but worked fine with the W7000. The BenQ glasses work great, but they are uncomfortable.. I can't see using them for an entire movie. the ZD201's are the goldilocks of the DLP glasses.. just right.

I pained my way through the rest of Happy Feet 2. I like the majority of the 3D animations, but awkward looking penguins breaking out in song in times of desperation is a little tough. Watching a penguin who sounds like 30 years of Robbin Williams doing the same exact character did me in.

The 'Krill' characters from Matt Damon and Brad Pitt stole the movie, the 3D on their scenes was excellent.
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post #2360 of 3271
3/10/12 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I want to make it clear (pun intended) that my first W7000 did NOT have any issues with 1:1 pixel mapping. I use an HTPC and issues like this would stick out like a sore thumb.

My first W7000 was as razor sharp as my W6000 and SP890 at work (same chassis, same lens).

What everyone is waiting for is both 1:1 pixel mapping and excellent black level.
I'm been waiting since last December for both to occur in the same sample. But there are always something causing delays.

Projector Central states:
"In terms of image quality, the projector's main weakness is black level."

Projector Reviews states:
"The answer you have been waiting for: The BenQ W7000 projector has extremely good black level performance."

I'm taking the position they are both right with the sample each received. Now I'm waiting for AVS greatest reviewer for the definitive answer in evaluating the finished W7000 product. Thanks!

BTW, it's great to hear that BenQ is seriously testing the W7000. Thanks for the update
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post #2361 of 3271
3/10/12 at 8:35am
There is no finished product. BenQ has withdrawn its 1.04 (let's call it that) for further refinement (not my word, their's) and has gone back to 1.0. If you get one from BenQ now that is what you will get. New software should be out by the end of the month by they are making no promises as to timing. They have not been able to duplicate the 1:1 HDMI mapping issue using 1.0 software. We have this in writing. They are investigating it further. That's all I know at this point. So no questions like will existing units have to go back for a software update or will this be field dooable? They don't know.
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post #2362 of 3271
3/10/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

With the price now being more competitive to the 9500, brighter, faster color wheel, better lens shift, full color controls, etc I have no problem waiting a bit longer now that we have their attention.

Several reviews and sources are now saying the Benq only has a 4x color wheel...

Not all that much black level difference is likely to exist between the Acer 9500bd and Benq w7000, at best it would be differences in IRIS design, the Native on/off's are too close and the starting point is what matters. I would definitely think the Benq's IRIS will be less bouncy, but the real key would be if they expose the IRIS settings in the service menu like the w6000, that would be the best improvement.

The color controls is a bonus and worth the extra money, since Benq's calibration controls are usually fairly good. Although my general experience in calibrating projectors tends to lean towards the projectors with the best OOTB accuracy generally also fall within the best post-calibrated images due to lack of posterization and other issues that crop up post-calibration. The less you have to use the calibration controls, generally the better.
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post #2363 of 3271
3/10/12 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 
I've asked the BQ engineer to clarify the color wheel speed. I can tell it's significantly better than the 5360. I am highly RBE sensitive and the W7000 is brighter than the 5360 which would make it stand out even more.

I can't see it in 3D and only can only catch it once in a blue moon on 2D. This leads me to believe it's faster than 4x. It's also better with RBE than my W6000 and SP890 at work.

The W7000 was easy a pie to calibrate to D65 / Rec 709, for a relatively inexpensive projector, the color controls are impressive.

RE: killer 3D with excellent black levels ---> If JVC can master 3D and replace the lamp with a 1500-2000 lumen LED, we can stop posting in the threads.. there won't be anything left to talk about.
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post #2364 of 3271
3/10/12 at 8:57am
That is good to know. The 5360 is only 3x I believe. RBE will also be less on a DLP projector in (60hz) instead of 24p. I can see more RBE in 24p on my DLP.

Viewsonic needs to take the Pro8200 and make a 3D revision with an IRIS, then we're talking but I've yet to see a Viewsonic DLP with an IRIS. 1500 Lumens best mode and very little RBE. The other manufacturers also need to move to the 7-segment color wheel design with the added Yellow segment and abandon the six-segment design when it comes to the 3D DLP projectors, it produces a brighter picture with very few downsides, and it appears to have less RBE by a decent amount (the Viewsonic's 4x wheel assuming because of the extra segment has less RBE like a 5x or 6x). The yellow segment does not appear to have the same negative effects as the old "brighter" color wheel designs with the white segment, and this new design was invented by TI and is more recent than some of the older color wheel designs.
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post #2365 of 3271
3/10/12 at 11:14am
Hello zombie.

Is it normal when i watch a movie like happyfeet on the epson that if i look straight ahead i sometimes see a little ghosting on the right or left of the screen?

But when i turn my head to it it disapears?

Sorry for this(maybe)silly question..
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post #2366 of 3271
3/11/12 at 10:42am
Thread Starter 
Edit 3/11/2012 - added brief review of 4 different DLP Link glasses to the first page. When I get a chance, i'll take 'through the glasses' shots of each one showing the specific color tint. In the meantime, the ZD201's take the crown.. the question is, how to get a hold of them in US.
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post #2367 of 3271
3/11/12 at 11:50am
Hi Zombie - just curious, were you ever planning on adding performance comments for the 5010 to your first post at all? After the 3D crosstalk/ghosting photos, the 5010 is not mentioned at all through the rest of the post...
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post #2368 of 3271
3/11/12 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreyTheater View Post

Hi Zombie - just curious, were you ever planning on adding performance comments for the 5010 to your first post at all? After the 3D crosstalk/ghosting photos, the 5010 is not mentioned at all through the rest of the post...

Hi, I do plan on updating it, I've just been swamped with other projects.

Much has been discussed about the 5010's performance over the last 2 months. The 3D is among the best of the LCD/LCOS projectors with minimal ghosting in the tough scenes, plus it's brightness in 3D is unsurpassed.

There are a number of different opinions on the 2D performance, but I think it's a great overall 2D/3D projector with better blacks than the DLP counterparts.
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post #2369 of 3271
3/11/12 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Hi, I do plan on updating it, I've just been swamped with other projects.

Much has been discussed about the 5010's performance over the last 2 months. The 3D is among the best of the LCD/LCOS projectors with minimal ghosting in the tough scenes, plus it's brightness in 3D is unsurpassed.

There are a number of different opinions on the 2D performance, but I think it's a great overall 2D/3D projector with better blacks than the DLP counterparts.

Well, I upgraded from an Optoma HD20 DLP to the Epson 5010, and yes, it is like night and day with the black level on the Epson - and that's even with the native contrast, no iris. So I'm very pleased with the 2D as well as the 3D on the 5010...

As for adding your 5010 comments in the first post, I will be happy to see it included, but I was asking for it mainly as a benefit to other prospective 3D projector buyers.
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post #2370 of 3271
3/12/12 at 7:33am
Fantastic interview with director Alex Cox (Repo Man) on CBC Radio this morning. Go to the website and have a listen -- we're all interested in what he talks about, but we're not allowed to talk about this subject on this site.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout