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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 9

post #241 of 3271
Yes I think JVCs version of LCOS, or DILA, is much sharper.

But SXRD, it can't really resolve fine pixel level detail.

To top it off it looks like the HW30 uses a poor lens as well.
post #242 of 3271
Never tested the new Sony's, I'd like to run that test pattern on one. The Sony vw70 didn't do so great on that pattern, but mine didn't have very good convergence so that's not a fair test. The Mits hc4000 was really good at the center of the screen probably almost as good as a Benq, but the focus uniformity wasn't perfect. The RS-45 has very good focus uniformity and handles the lines well, but it isn't quite as good at resolving the smaller text and the lines crossing together as the best DLP's.

The LCD's all had more trouble for the most part.
post #243 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post


Seems like the HW30 has a somewhat poor lens also. From comments above it doesn't seem to be a big deal for film based material, but I wonder what sports look like on it? Sharpness is important there for me.

at this point, this is just conjecture and speculation being spread about this projector from people that don't even own it.

There are no complaints about sharpness from actual owners and you guys would be surprised how sharp this is on my 142" @ only 1.25 SW seating distance. It's not like I don't have 5 other projectors to compare it to.
post #244 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

at this point, this is just conjecture and bad info being spread about this projector from people that don't even own it.

There are no complaints about sharpness from actual owners and you guys would be surprised how sharp this is on my 142" @ only 1.25 SW seating distance. It's not like I don't have 5 other projectors to compare it to.

I was not saying it wasn't sharp, I am just saying it might not be as sharp as the JVC. All good, I'm recommending this projector quite often so I obviously trust you, otherwise I'd be making myself out to be a dope.

How does it look for HTPC with small text.
post #245 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I was not saying it wasn't sharp, I am just saying it might not be as sharp as the JVC. All good, I'm recommending this projector quite often so I obviously trust you, otherwise I'd be making myself out to be a dope.

How does it look for HTPC with small text.

not you, I was referring to you best bud hanging on TH's every last word. I am going to ask Tom to consider looking at the HW30 again since it was a long time ago that they looked at it, and have since seen the RS45 and Epson 5010. He might be surprised that this is the same situation with the VW95, yet critical eyes are loving that projector.

Lovingdvd has also has a good point, you can't see the pixel structure with MPC turned on, yet the image on the 70/55 has been regarded as quite sharp by those who have plenty of mid/high end projector experience.

My 1920x1080 HTPC is completely clear and legible on my 142" on the HW30. If it wasn't, it would never have lasted this long in my HT (5 months now).
post #246 of 3271
That is true, even my Viewsonic fooled me on my test pattern at first because I just glanced, due to the higher pixel fill I swore it was sharper than the JVC by 1/2 notch initially. Once I got the laptop out and split screen them, no dice, the JVC was sharper on the circuit board.

Many people try to judge sharpness just by text (I've been accused of that), but different projectors will have different sharpness traits so to speak, and some may handle one pattern better, and then do another pattern worse, so it depends. Scientifically it might not be as good as some of the patterns but it sure is easier and quicker when I'm in a hurry.
post #247 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I was not saying it wasn't sharp, I am just saying it might not be as sharp as the JVC. All good, I'm recommending this projector quite often so I obviously trust you, otherwise I'd be making myself out to be a dope.

How does it look for HTPC with small text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

not you, I was referring to you best bud hanging on TH's every last word. I am going to ask Tom to consider looking at the HW30 again since it was a long time ago that they looked at it, and have since seen the RS45 and Epson 5010. He might be surprised that this is the same situation with the VW95, yet critical eyes are loving that projector.

Lovingdvd has also has a good point, you can't see the pixel structure with MPC turned on, yet the image on the 70/55 has been regarded as quite sharp by those who have plenty of mid/high end projector experience.

My 1920x1080 HTPC is completely clear and legible on my 142" on the HW30. If it wasn't, it would never have lasted this long in my HT (5 months now).

This was the gist of my questions in post #232 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=232) which was not directly answered, ie: how does the clarity stack up between the HW30 vs RS45?

Jason (Zombie) seems to have answered this with his subjective opinion that the Sony is not noticeably less sharp when viewed from a minimum 1.25 SW. My seating is between 1.25 SW (10ft) and 1.5 SW (12ft) but I certainly do not want to end up with the feeling I have to push my head to the back of the room in order to lose any pixel grid effect.

As far as the 3D question goes, the through-the-glasses experience can be quite different than lumen numbers may indicate... some implementations are extremely dark like the Panny AE7000. Which is again why I was asking about subjective feedback btwn the Sony & JVC.

It's possible the next Sony release is only 7-8 months away, so a painful wait for next version (HW40?) is not out of reach, but with no details about that, there is no reasoning to assume it would be worthwhile waiting.
post #248 of 3271
I think it will be fine, he said it looks sharp on text, that is all you need. For video sharpness, unless you went DLP (which adds a fake sharpening by default), then you'd not get much if any benefit in sharpness over the JVC or Sony, I mean that is what we know so far from Zombie's comments.

I like the fake sharpness of DLP as some call it, but some DLP has true sharpness + the pixel grid which boosts the look of text even more, but all is good, JVC is close enough for my tastes. Some of us might be a tiny pickier than Zombie on sharpness (But I know he is picky), so I doubt by that much, so the Sony really should be good for sharpness, I imagine a lot better than most LCD's.
post #249 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmabrain View Post

It's possible the next Sony release is only 7-8 months away, so a painful wait for next version (HW40?) is not out of reach, but with no details about that, there is no reasoning to assume it would be worthwhile waiting.

You only live once, guess it just depends on what finances anyone has at a given time. I got tired of waiting, now is as good a time to buy as any IMHO. At least projectors hold their value a little, I mean man have I wasted money on PC purchases. I have tons of PC's in storage I need to get rid of, but I think they aren't even worth their weight in scrap metal.
post #250 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Hi again Mikey2Cent! (you have a rap career ahead of you with this minor variation on your avatar?)

I heard back from BenQ about an hour ago, basically a relay of some info from Taiwan. Good news one and all. I'll pass on what's useful:

The Cyan dip we reported: to be corrected with Jan firmware (well there goes the usefulness of our published settings - maybe)

Flicker issues (don't know if the ones that shipped had them, but mine did, - coming out of 3D. That too, fixed

The aspect ratio shift problem I mentioned is a non-problem. Turns out it's a DirecTV problem with their switch to HD res guides and menus. It's now happened on another projector and a year old Sony LCDTV that has never done it before.

Remote control freezing. They cant duplicate, and it only happened twice on my 0.22 firmware. Since no one else has reported, we can forget about that too, unless it resurfaces

I reported instances of saved settings in User 1 briefly going back to default, then reappearing as set. They acknowledged that one also with a Jan F/W fix!

Now, no surprises with that stuff. As I said, most of the headaches go away with production software, but figure even 1.x isn't perfect.

That brings us to the two most important items:::

1. Black level performance: Per Taiwan:
"We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same".

If that's the case (and they only said "latest unit"), then future units or some in the pipeline must have improved blacks relative to what I'm seeing here, which were disappointing.

2. That brings us to Firmware, and how to get the latest, ie. user updatable?: That I didn't get an answer on at all, so I replied to the email, saying, that's what all you guys on the fence are waiting to hear. If there's an easy ability to update firmware, many people likely will "get off the fence."

That's it for now. Drop by my site, I do have to spend a lot more time posting there, than here, and therefore, it's usually more timely. -a

Well I got tired of waiting so I called Benq tech support and asked them about the problems with the first production run units and the supposed Jan FW update. He listened to my concerns about this and about having to send the unit in if it needs to be updated. He put me on hold for a while then came back and told me that they are not aware of any problems with the current production run and that there is no newer FW. He told me that if there was a problem that I would have to send the unit across the country to California at my own expense for any repairs and they would pay to return it. Basically he said if I bought the unit I could expect it to work fine. So it sounds to me like the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing but regardless shipping the unit off at my expense is not a very appealing prospect. Not impressed with Benq warranty program at all. Oh, and don't expect a user FW update feature any time soon.

So if there is any truth to the response Art got from them, either tech support is not aware, or his response was based on the current FW out there, or there will be some fixes and Benq is simply going to let the current run go where it may and see what happens.

Who wants to buy the W7000 now? I do of course but I want a working unit. I was just about set to buy the 9500 but now I see it has SBS issues. Uuugghh. Yes, I am looking for a DLP 3D unit as I am an admitted DLP fanboy.
post #251 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


not you, I was referring to you best bud hanging on TH's every last word. I am going to ask Tom to consider looking at the HW30 again since it was a long time ago that they looked at it, and have since seen the RS45 and Epson 5010. He might be surprised that this is the same situation with the VW95, yet critical eyes are loving that projector.

Lovingdvd has also has a good point, you can't see the pixel structure with MPC turned on, yet the image on the 70/55 has been regarded as quite sharp by those who have plenty of mid/high end projector experience.

My 1920x1080 HTPC is completely clear and legible on my 142" on the HW30. If it wasn't, it would never have lasted this long in my HT (5 months now).

Is there a close up pic avail showing what people are "concerned" about?

... Altan
post #252 of 3271
@Mike2Cents
Sounds like you are stuck waiting on the Benq, that's my recommendation.
Sound like the Sony is a better alternative for the time being, I mean let's look at Sony vs. BENQ:

Sony:
Very little ghosting, almost as good 3D
Better black levels, a more film like image
IMHO, LCOS is 80% to 90% as punchy as DLP in most content, but with the darker blacks it is better for MOST movies

(watched Blackthorn on the JVC then on the DLP, JVC won easily, no contest even in bright scenes, it again depends on how sophisticated the camera men are to whether DLP or LCOS win in a given scene, even in some bright scenes LCOS can still win occassionally). Of course the Benq is better than my Viewsonic even in bright scenes, but I have experience with some somewhat higher end DLP's as well.
post #253 of 3271
[Well I got tired of waiting so I called Benq tech support and asked them about the problems with the first production run

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post


Who wants to buy the W7000 now? I do of course but I want a working unit. I was just about set to buy the 9500 but now I see it has SBS issues. Uuugghh. Yes, I am looking for a DLP 3D unit as I am an admitted DLP fanboy.

I am in the waiting list for the Benq, but I'm about to call Mike to take a different route, I'm leaning towards the Sony now.

Even though the Sony unit has great reviews eveywhere, it seems that some people in this forum find it lacking in sharpness and the lens quality seems to be in question as well. I hope that the people making these comments have actually seen the projector in action.
post #254 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

Even though the Sony unit has great reviews eveywhere, it seems that some people in this forum find it lacking in sharpness and the lens quality seems to be in question as well. I hope that the people making these comments have actually seen the projector in action.

I had only seen a couple comments in the entire hw30 thread about Sharpness, they were related to uniformity. Those are the owners, these people are all speculating (including me). There really weren't many negative comments about sharpness in the Sony thread (no more than the JVC as I recall), but every now and then someone can get a bad unit.

I guess I forgot how many lurkers are reading this thread, to clarify Zombie owns both the JVC (has seen multiple JVC's) and says adamantly that the difference in text and video sharpness between the JVC and Sony's is very minimal at best and not noticeable during usage of HTPC or movies, and only when you walk up to the screen.

Unless we get someone doing a more scientific test, I'm sticking with that result for now.
post #255 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Is there a close up pic avail showing what people are "concerned" about?

... Altan

Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara View Post

Even though the Sony unit has great reviews eveywhere, it seems that some people in this forum find it lacking in sharpness and the lens quality seems to be in question as well. I hope that the people making these comments have actually seen the projector in action.

negative, the concerned individual doesn't have an HW30 or a VW95 to make a fair comment, so take the comments with a boulder sized grain of salt.

If you guys are on the fence with a decision, remember, reputable dealers will take back a projector with less than 4 hours. For me, that's enough time to put it into position, get a clean focus, run a 30 minute 'quick' calibration to correct brightness/contrast/gamma/gray scale and run through 2 hours of my favorite clips to judge.

get one and judge it for yourself.. there is no better person to form an opinion.
post #256 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


negative, the concerned individual doesn't have an HW30 or a VW95 to make a fair comment, so take the comments with a boulder sized grain of salt.

If you guys are on the fence with a decision, remember, reputable dealers will take back a projector with less than 4 hours. For me, that's enough time to put it into position, get a clean focus, run a 30 minute 'quick' calibration to correct brightness/contrast/gamma/gray scale and run through 2 hours of my favorite clips to judge.

get one and judge it for yourself.. there is no better person to form an opinion.

True!

Might pull the trigger on this guy shortly...

Zombie, one of the reviews indicated digital noise inherent in the Sony hw30 during solids or flesh colors. I've not seen this mentioned elsewhere. Any thoughts here?

Finally, I require the projector I purchase to allow me to take over the world. Is the hw30 or the rs45 best for this?



... Altan
post #257 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I had only seen a couple comments in the entire hw30 thread about Sharpness, they were related to uniformity. Those are the owners, these people are all speculating (including me). There really weren't many negative comments about sharpness in the Sony thread (no more than the JVC as I recall), but every now and then someone can get a bad unit.

I guess I forgot how many lurkers are reading this thread, to clarify Zombie owns both the JVC (has seen multiple JVC's) and says adamantly that the difference in text and video sharpness between the JVC and Sony's is very minimal at best and not noticeable during usage of HTPC or movies, and only when you walk up to the screen.

Unless we get someone doing a more scientific test, I'm sticking with that result for now.

I actually contacted Zombie about this matter because he owns both and has actual experience on the real differences between the 2 projectors as you point out. Based on his observations whatever differences there are in favor of the JVC in sharpness, which Zombie says is minimum, makes the Sony a better all around projector because of the 3D factor, that and the lamp uncertainty issue made my desicion for the Sony a little easier. Had the JVC resolved 3D the way the Sony does, I would have jumped on it.

Factors for my desicion in favor of the Sony were, in order,

1- Excellent 2D picture (very good blacks)
2- Very good 3D quality (almost ghost free)
3- Reliability (no bulb problems)
4- Noise level (22 db, low lamp mode)
5- 3 year warranty (some peace of mind)
6- Bulb price ( a plus, not a deciding factor)

I believe like many others have said that the Sony offers the best all around peformance for the price, it is not the best at anything, yet it is close to all the units that are the best at something. A no brainer.
post #258 of 3271
Noise level is not an issue with either projector, the JVC is so quiet it sounds broken like it didn't turn on, literally.

I know you didn't ask me specifically, but I wouldn't base the decision on sharpness or image noise, we have always gone by different decision factors for this projector. Only the older Sony's had issues with VB and noise and gamma from what I recall.

Darker Blacks = JVC
Lens Memory = JVC
Motorized Controls = JVC
Darker movies = JVC

3D = Sony
Gaming = Sony
TV = Who knows, maybe Sony, maybe JVC
FI and Motion = Sony
Sports = Sony
Bulb Price and Warranty = Sony
post #259 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

True!

Might pull the trigger on this guy shortly...

Zombie, one of the reviews indicated digital noise inherent in the Sony hw30 during solids or flesh colors. I've not seen this mentioned elsewhere. Any thoughts here?

Finally, I require the projector I purchase to allow me to take over the world. Is the hw30 or the rs45 best for this?


... Altan

Not on my calibrated HW30. I was watching a concert last night (don't laugh) - Shakira, Live in Paris. This was shot with HQ cameras with a number of high contrast scenes (she is brightly lit against a black background). Her facial features were pristine in regard to color, texture, etc with no signs of digital noise.

Sitting only 1.25 SW from a large HP screen is unforgiving. That's how I noticed the bright corners on the RS45.

each of the projectors discussed in the mini-shoot out have distinct advantages and disadvantages, it just depends on what you guys are looking for. I still stand that of the 3, the HW30 was best balanced for 2D and 3D content, taking all the factors in the shootout into consideration.
post #260 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Finally, I require the projector I purchase to allow me to take over the world. Is the hw30 or the rs45 best for this?



... Altan

Totally agree with that. Why settle for Billions when we could have Millions. Moohaahaahaaahaa!

On a serious note, Zombie or Mark, how do you rate the W7000 based on what Tech support told me, your experience with the unit, and the other owners who have posted about the unit. Are the black levels on par with the W6000 in your opinion? I know they won't match the JVC and Sony but at this price they need to be at least better than entry level or the Acer 9500. Thanks.
post #261 of 3271
Hey guys, I've been looking for a new projector and researching for the last 3 months! I've been on a roller coaster or decisions thinking that one projector would be my answer and then I find there are problems with it and it won't work. I was really really hoping that W7000 was the answer to my prayers but i guess not unless I want to wait and see what future firmwares bring up (which I don't want to do because I have a 6 or 7 year old projector and I think it's time for an upgrade, plus the bulb is close to dying out on me).

I was really hoping for a projector with a nice display in 2d and 3d but now I know there are trade offs. In addition I needed the projector to be bright
because I don't have the batcave I wish I did. Lastly because this is my main screen in my home for entertainment all the video game systems are attached to it as well and lag times for new projectors have just become ridiculous because of all the processing.

After reading more then you can imagine in the last 3 months I've learned way to much about different types of projectors haha. I had initially only looked at ones that seemed to have bright enough displays for my setup but it doesn't look like I can get something that will work well. After reading all this stuff about the hw30 in this thread it seems like it would work perfectly for me especially with the game mode. I just never looked at it before because the lower lumens and that is my worry now. Do you guys think it would be bright enough for a room with ambient light?

post #262 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Not on my calibrated HW30. I was watching a concert last night (don't laugh) - Shakira, Live in Paris. This was shot with HQ cameras with a number of high contrast scenes (she is brightly lit against a black background). Her facial features were pristine in regard to color, texture, etc with no signs of digital noise.

Sitting only 1.25 SW from a large HP screen is unforgiving. That's how I noticed the bright corners on the RS45.

each of the projectors discussed in the mini-shoot out have distinct advantages and disadvantages, it just depends on what you guys are looking for. I still stand that of the 3, the HW30 was best balanced for 2D and 3D content, taking all the factors in the shootout into consideration.


And for pure 2d content? What would you choose?
post #263 of 3271
@Cunado
How big of a screen, you will need a special gray screen.

Get the Sony hw30 for movies and something else for bright gaming, and I'm assuming at times you won't have a lot of light in the room. Personally, I'd grab a second projector for ambient light, like a Viewsonic Pro8200 (cheap and bright and 1080p and no lag). You can't beat the Viewsonic for fighting ambient light and gaming, 1500 lumens in best mode and 20ms lag, less RBE than every other 4x CW projector. That is if you can budget for both, you can still use the Sony primarily or if you can get the setup good enough you could stick with the Sony, depends on the screen and room conditions. We cannot generalize light conditions and tell you exactly.
post #264 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@Cunado
How big of a screen, you will need a special gray screen.

Get the Sony hw30 for movies and something else for bright gaming, and I'm assuming at times you won't have a lot of light in the room.

Personally, I'd grab a second projector for ambient light, like a Viewsonic Pro8200 (cheap and bright and 1080p and no lag).
You can't beat the Viewsonic for fighting ambient light and gaming, 1500 lumens in best mode and 20ms lag, less RBE than every other 4x CW projector.

i currently have a 105" black diamond 1.4 gain screen. I was think about doing the double projector route for a while but it just seems like it would be a huge hassle to do so :/
post #265 of 3271
You might be fine with the Sony on that screen, not sure.

The two projector setup to me is anything but inconvenient, you just need a matrix HDMI switch or portable video streamer. It feels awesome to be able to fire up a cheap DLP that is also a portable unit with built-in speakers and only weighs about 7 pounds. You can move these DLP's between rooms, they are as small as a fat laptop and weigh about the same. For animated films and gaming and some other bright content, it still beats the LCOS tech. It doesn't handle 24p right, but it does do great motion in 60hz and for gaming. You can also take it on trips or watch outside if you want, it can do 200" screens in bright mode with lamp high, lol.

It comes with a carrying case as well, I really love the 2 projector setup.
post #266 of 3271
how about dealing with the wires? do you have a splitter for easy plug and play on it or do you unplug from you bigger projector and plug into the small one?
post #267 of 3271
Never unplug anything, a Matrix switch like one you can buy from monoprice.com or amazon.com is one way, but I actually have multiple bluray players and HTPC's, so I dont even really use the matrix switch that much. I mean bluray players are so cheap these days, you can get them for under $100.

I would buy the Sony first and see if it has enough lumens for your setup, I have a feeling with 1.4 gain you'll probably be ok, just try to re-do the lighting in your room first so that it doesn't shine directly on the screen (get secondary lighting or something, that's one thing many people forget to recommend). It's not hard to re-do the lighting to make a good gaming area and keep the screen with relatively decent contrast.

Added
105" Screen at 1.4 gain is a pretty freaking bright image, 35-40 fL even in Lamp High Best Mode

Depends what direction the light is facing and just how much light.
post #268 of 3271
the lighting is not a problem, i can turn all the lights off when ever i want, its the sunlight coming from the windows haha. But i think you're right, im gunna try the sony and see how it goes. If i do need a little power for sports or something during the day i look into those smaller light cannons
post #269 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunado View Post

Hey guys, I've been looking for a new projector and researching for the last 3 months! I've been on a roller coaster or decisions thinking that one projector would be my answer and then I find there are problems with it and it won't work. I was really really hoping that W7000 was the answer to my prayers but i guess not unless I want to wait and see what future firmwares bring up (which I don't want to do because I have a 6 or 7 year old projector and I think it's time for an upgrade, plus the bulb is close to dying out on me).

I was really hoping for a projector with a nice display in 2d and 3d but now I know there are trade offs. In addition I needed the projector to be bright
because I don't have the batcave I wish I did. Lastly because this is my main screen in my home for entertainment all the video game systems are attached to it as well and lag times for new projectors have just become ridiculous because of all the processing.

After reading more then you can imagine in the last 3 months I've learned way to much about different types of projectors haha. I had initially only looked at ones that seemed to have bright enough displays for my setup but it doesn't look like I can get something that will work well. After reading all this stuff about the hw30 in this thread it seems like it would work perfectly for me especially with the game mode. I just never looked at it before because the lower lumens and that is my worry now. Do you guys think it would be bright enough for a room with ambient light?


I strongly recommend not worrying so much about the Sony brightness and spend a little money and thought about your room treatments for projector usage. The current room treatments are about as good as holding an active toaster while taking a bath.

1) At a minimum, get some dark curtains with blackout backing.

2) Paint your room in a flat (maybe semi-flat) dark color. Black is best, but not a 100% requirement. This includes the ceiling and back wall too.

3) Lay a black cloth over your front console. Also change out as many light/white colored furnishings as possible (lamp shades, etc) and eliminate glittery things.

You will likely need a new projector mount and move it forward since the Sony is much deeper than your current PJ. Perhaps just change to a rear wall shelf mount. Lowering the PJ by a foot would be good too. Something like this is Peerless is slick: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i00_details
post #270 of 3271
I agree with the above, I often just assume when someone says "ambient light" they mean they have no other choice and can't redecorate at all. Looking at that room seems you have quite a few choices.
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