JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 93

Do the MonsterVision provide a transmitter with each pair of glasses?

Yes, there is a transmitter with each pair of glasses, but you only need to use one transmitter to run several pair of glasses.

Good thing too because the first IR sensor that I tried was defective. Monster's support for these isn't too good either as they suck as responding to the webmail request for an RMA on this part that I left on their site. The glasses are good, but don't expect a lot of people knowledgeable at a company that specializes in cables, etc. The price was right though.

Be sure that you plug the sensor in all the way. Others have reported a problem with the sensor because it was not in all the way. Very tight connection.
Check out the Monster Vision thread on the 3d Tech Talk section most information is there including links to the VIP firmware download and manual. This is the Bit Caldron manual which is the manufacture that made the glasses for Monster. It is much better.

I keep waiting for this thread to re-rail back on point. That point-for the less acute-is the comparison of the four projectors with advantages and trade-offs of each relative to the others.

I know what you are saying about the thread getting off-topic, but this thread has become the somewhat generic thread for all things that are remotely related.

I have problems with the IR sensors getting stuck on the one red light, but eventually figured out that what causes it (for me anyhow) is my Samsung c6900d Bluray player getting stuck in non-3D mode which means the JVC is not trying to emit the 3D signal either.

Added:
Also note that if you are using the JVC's with the MV3D, if you ever get an invalid signal it can cause the 3D emitter to get stuck into the single red dot mode and not emit. Unplugging the emitter with the stereo cable will not fix it, the JVC itself is what is stuck and the only thing that appears to reset the problem is by unplugging the cable from the back of the JVC. This sounds counter-intuitive, but it works. Sometimes devices can recognize a cable is plugged in even though nothing is at the other end of the cable, so you have to physically remove even a cable with nothing at the other end to truly reset the device 100%. This has worked for me on several occasions.
Edited by coderguy - 6/9/12 at 10:04pm

Art claims the black levels on the vw1000 are substantial better than that of the VW95(maybe at the level of brightness?). The projector does look brighter. As far as overall blacks/contrast goes, are you kidding me?
He must be looking at different pics than what I see on his site.

vw1000 blacks are greyer here.

vw95 overall contrast/blacks look blacker

I agree there are many variables.However, I believe it can be done in a controlled environment. I'm referring mainly to what is posted on the review site and pics used to do those comparisons.
Anyone with a half decent monitor can see the pics look opposite to what Art references in the review.
Plus the numbers don't lie either. From the measurements I've seen. The VW95 should have better contrast any way.

Yes I'm hoping for the same. I'm hoping you'll do it for us!
I'm tired of all the waxing poetically about how good a projector is by some of these reviewers. I want to see hard numbers proving how much better one is over another. Basing it on cost alone just doesn't cut it with me.

I must have missed the boat on the Darby. Do you have a link for this? Thanks

I am skeptical of the device as you were, but are you saying it does not degrade or introduce ringing at low settings but still improves the image??
Do you own a Lumagen, it'd be interesting if someone could compare the JVC sharpness enhancement, to the Lumagen, to the Darby's.

For those that don't follow the Offiicial RS-45 thread, I found a REALLY excellent and cheap HDMI switch that works flawlessly in 3D and every mode (and it's the first one I've had that does so).
The new generic 1.3b rated ones from Amazon that have the optical outs and headphone jacks (they go under several different brands) and range from $60 to $100 for a 4x2 matrix, they are VERY good and better than the Monoprice ones. I've had the switch for one week without a single glitch in 3D, HTPC, or otherwise.

Back to my BLURAY issues with reading disks, it turned out it was just a dirty laser on my Bluray player. You can buy those cleaning CD's at Walmart for $6 (or get one online) that clean the bluray player. You stick it in the player, and in 10 minutes it's basically cleaned. I had a new copy of How to Train your Dragon that wouldn't play in my Bluray player, and after doing that cleaning disk, now it doesn't even hiccup. Maybe we all need to keep our Blurays cleaner with those disks from now on. I was about ready to buy a new player.

BTW, How to Train your Dragon is very good in 3D on the JVC, very very little ghosting (only a handful of scenes). Some great and consistent inward depth 3D, even if not a lot of popouts. Space Station Imax is bad at times on the JVC (ghost city), and Grand Canyon is pretty bad as well (although some of Grand Canyon is bearable). I feel Hubble and Space Station were a waste of money. I'm starting to like Animated Content better on 3D, it's just smoother and done better (some animated content ghosts bad on the JVC though, but not all). The Dragon one was the least ghosting I've seen so far in a full movie on the JVC (Resident Evil 3D was the least for a non-animated movie, and Under the Sea and Wave Tahiti are somewhere down the line and not too bad either).
Edited by coderguy - 6/9/12 at 10:06pm

Did you mean to state, "...the optical outs..."?

Could you link to the specific switch? I see some 4X2 switchers that support 1.3b with audio outs but none with optical. Want to make sure I'm looking for the right part. I have one of the Monoprice 4X2 switchers and I do have minor issues with it from time to time.

Thanks.

My bad, found it.

The exact one I bought is sold out (linked below), but if you look at the pictures carefully from the link below, and find one that looks exactly the same with identical outputs, then it should be the same but from a different OEM.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MYUCF8/ref=oh_details_o02_s02_i00

I think below is the same one (not sold out):
http://www.amazon.com/ViewHD-Premium-Digital-Surround-versatile/dp/B0031SWDKI/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1339339325&sr=1-1&keywords=HDMI+Matrix+4+Input+2+Output+%284x2%29+Splitter+Switch+-+3D+-+Full+HD

It has never had a switching issue either, and I've already used the switch capability 50+ times between 3D-HTPC, 3D-Bluray, and other sources. You should use high speed rated HDMI cables if possible to ensure no issues.
Edited by coderguy - 6/10/12 at 10:15pm

I watched Journey 2: The Mysterious Island last night. It's a kid's movie, but the 3D was just as good as the first 3D film I watched on the Epson 6010. There may be an ever-so-slight increase in ghosting, but it's still almost imperceptible even with the aging lamp. That's after 1,000 hours on the bulb. The 3D puts my JVC projectors to shame. Even better for me, the Epson has no problem whatsoever with the original 3D footage I've shot with my JVC camcorder (1080i/60). It's remarkably ghost free. I routinely use the projector to review the footage I've shot on any given day. I also have no complaints about 2D/3D brightness at this point. With my HP screen, both still look great.

That's it for my mini 1,000 hour report on the 6010. All things considered, I have no regrets about trading my RS45 for it.

All,

After several weeks or deliberation on what projector to buy (it's my first), I decided to get the Epson 6010. It was between that and the JVC RS45 but the bulb issues really got me scared about the JVC's.

Well... I'M ABSOLUTELY THRILLED with the 6010 so far and I am only projecting on a beige wall! I still have to buy the screen and have an order in for the 125" Elunevision Reference with 1.0 gain. I trust this should be fine with the brightness of the 6010.

The image is stunning with very sharp alignment and the colors are very natural looking in THX Mode... again on the beige wall. The source is my HTPC with my ripped Blurays and the desktop is very sharp. When I move in 2 weeks and get the projector properly setup I will write more about my thoughts.

I am very pleased with it and the blacks are excellent approaching the RS45. No regrets so far!!! :D:D

hey zombie10k,

can you eleborate more on the Darby processor?

do u think it would be a good fit for the BenQ W7000, or are we talking about too sharp an image already?

I can see how this would benefit more a softer LCOS projector...

is the Darby similar to an HTPC running post processing software (FFDshow, etc.)

finally, can the Darby be adjusted as you suggest in above quote (ie: 35%, etc.).

thanks

My RS-45 is super sharp even without e-shift. I have owned DLP's like the Mits hc4000 and it was not as sharp as the RS-45 if you count focus uniformity. Technically, a perfectly converged LCOS could potentially look perceptibly sharper than a DLP in some cases in video because the pixels have less space between them. I imagine even the super-sharp Benq w7000 and RS-45 should look about the same in sharpness on VIDEO content (other than processing differences), but the w7000 MIGHT look a tiny bit sharper in HTPC mode (depending on how good convergence the JVC is), but my RS-45 is pretty DARN close to as sharp as an LCD monitor from perceivable usage in HTPC. Perhaps I got luckier than some (but if you get a good sample, JVC's sharpness is mind blowing).

That said, I'm sure e-shift adds a lot, but regardless these new JVC's are ridiculously sharp for a NON-DLP projector. If someone calls the JVC soft, then you're going to have to call the sub $2000 DLP's I owned soft as well. I've been AB'n another DLP vs. the RS-45 using my new HDMI switch. Luckily today in projectors, we have finally passed the sharpness barrier for video, I would only worry about sharpness if using HTPC, and even then most are plenty sharp now. Projectors have come a LONG ways since the old days in sharpness.

Some of the times people think they are seeing sharpness, what they are really seeing is a difference in processing between some DLP's and some LCOS projectors. The Mits hc4000 for instance will blow away LCOS at handling certain poorer sources, on poorer sources several DLP's will look FAR sharper, but put in a reference level source and you can't tell the difference in sharpness in most video. E-shift is probably more than just sharpening the picture, it is more about reducing the apparence of the video effect and making it look more analog and still sharp (which translates to our brain to sharper).

I have a couple movies that look awful on the JVC (into the Wild), I don't really know why but it's some type of processing issue, they will look 3x better on my cheapo DLP's. If I weren't experienced comparing projectors, I would say the "JVC is less sharp and noisier", but I know it's the way it handles that one particular source. There are only a handful of movies that will give the JVC a problem though out of hundreds.
Edited by coderguy - 6/16/12 at 2:58pm

No dlp or lcos have sharpness algorithms as good as epsons(nec chip) super resolution or panasonics detail clarity??

Greetings, OK, I'll try to explain how I use these images here. I've done so on the site dozens of times, but certainly, the explanation eluded this post.

Basics. I take pictures with a Canon 60D, which is close to about as good as it gets (my 3rd dSLR since starting to use them for reviews 4-5 years ago).
I bracket. I adjust in increments of 1/3 f-stop, the smallest amount practical. Still, 1/3 f-stop is a ton of difference when comparing images like this, although if it was a picture of your family outside, you'd just say "this one's a little darker than the other" or some such!

So, we have here, two images that are obviously not identical in exposure. But you can see what I'm doing. "are you kidding me?" NO!.

First look at the pause bar of the PS3 in the lower left hand corner. You can see that the VW1000ES pause bar is significantly more overexposed. That is your best way of comparing the exposures themselves, the bar is white, blown out from overexposure on both, but obviously more so on the Sony.

NEXT. Look at the starship. Obviously, it is more overexposed on the 1000ES, than the 95ES.

You have to mentally adjust for that. Oh, you could open both in photoshop, find some different points on the images (around 80 50 and 30% IRE) and define the difference between the two projectors, such as now increasing the brightness of the VW95ES until the starship and the pause are exactly as overblown on the 95ES as the VW1000ES. When you did that - increasing the 95ES brightness, the blacks will rise by the same amount.

Now I do use a screen "light meter" for quick measurements when looking at these, and that (besides what my eyes tell me all along, And with it, pointing to different pixels from those images on my screen I get a 0-255 grayscale readout, for comparing. And for supporting my "claims".

The easy way to make all your lives simpler, would be for me to balance the exposures of the two images before posting. However, in years gone by, every time I have suggested, or demonstrated images that I've "corrected" somewhat, I am immediately buried in criticism that I should not be altering the photos.

And that's fair enough, but in that case, I can't give you two identically exposed images for comparison.

As someone pointed out, most images I post are mostly for entertainment, but you can glean real information from these photos.

Or you can just take my word that the VW1000ES black levels are truly superb. Now, given, those JVC's probably still have more native dynamic range, the Sony VW1000ES will produce a blacker black on the screen than the X70R (RS55), can do, on scenes where irises are most effective (scenes, without any significant really bright area.

As to viewing, which someone else asked about. Relative to the JVC: I did have the X70R for almost a week after the Sony arrived. For those who have seen it, In my theater, I have a small stand that holds two projectors, one above the other. Distance the same, only the amount of lens shift needed varies (JVC was slightly below the screen bottom), the Sony a bit above (Sony lens about 8-9 inches higher relative to the screen).

Relative to the VW95ES which I had months apart. Come on guys, give me a break. Besides measuring hundreds of images if I really had the time, every year I always have a reference projector - or two, that I can use, and do use, for such comparisons. This year it's the Epson 5010, and also my JVC RS20. watched the VW95ES and the Epson side by side enough, photographed them side by side, etc. I commented fully on how their black levels compared.

With the VW1000ES I spent a couple hours switching back and forth with the Epson. (I did not take the VW1000ES down in the testing room where I can do my side by sides, because there really wasn't anything worth putting up against it. Think, cars. the rest of the field are mazdas, toyotas, lexus, cadillac, etc. This one, folks is the Bentley, or the Maybach. One can "compare" things like black levels but nothing comes close, certainly not the VW95Es or the JVC DLA-X70R...

Back to switching with the Epson and 1000ES. Of course, both have dynamic irises. That said, the Epson long known for the best blacks for the price (ever since the 1080UB), is not remotely a match for the VW1000ES. The JVC may still have more dynamic range, but on a really dark scene, the VW1000ES dusts it, the Epson, and anything else I can think of. Even with 1200 lumens hitting the screen, vs the Epson's roughly 630 (from memory) of the two, both calibrated, on any dark scene I like, the Sony is putting out darker blacks, and whites twice as bright, and it's obvious to me, even when manually switching back and forth.

So, let's see:
1. Hopefully folks now understand how I use the starship image (and the night train scene from Casino Royale).

2. If you want to take the time, you can do some measurements (it's a painful process, and it works a lot better when you have the original higher res images (I shot the Sony at 18 megapixel but reduce to 1000 pixels wide for the site, which means many pixels are combined into one. With the original image I can get close to mapping individual pixels, making measurements far more accurate than with even the 1000 pixel wide, but you can try. BTW, watch out for odd gammas - any gamma that boosts or cuts the 10 IRE range more than it should would affect these things, one of the reasons I have Mike (when he calibrates them) look at the gamma settings, for such bumps or dips.

Enough - fathers day, I've got to get out of here soon. All you other fathers, may a beneficent soul bestow a VPL-VW1000ES upon you. You deserve one.

Finally, forgetting the photos, the gamma, the rest of this. I can firmly say that switching back from the VW1000ES to the Epson or the JVC (both of which I did have here, was really a no contest at all. Truth is, I had the 1000ES here for 6 weeks. I only ever turned on another projector once to a "comparison" after the first week, because the Sony was obviously dramatically superior to both the Epson 5010 and the X70R/RS55.

Regarding sharpness, that processor sounds interesting. Would be interesting if someone who has it would do some comparisons with the Epson Super-Resolution, or other internal "sharpening" solutions... (whatever you want to call them - since most use multiple techniques. Again, for clarification, there is no comparison between the 2-4K upscaling on the VW1000ES, to e-shift. shift can't begin to compensate for having 1/4 the number of discreet pixels. Throughout history, "external processors" have been around to enhance "inferior" projector technology. However, we have seen generations of external boxes go obsolete as the next gen projector surpasses... remember when everyone wanted a Faroudja processor? Then Silicon Optix... Then all of a sudden processing like Silicon Optix starts appearing in Epson and other projectors...

No projector is perfect, but from my take, the Sony VW1000ES just raised the bar - rather dramatically. ON any other year, I'd be screaming the praises of something new like e-shift, which I do like, but once having the Sony here, to compare, e-shift sort of seems like "nice try, but no contest" or "why bother". Can't wait until some real 4K content becomes readily available.

OK< everyone clear on the use of the images. I realize I got onto a VW1000ES rant.. Sorry bout that. I will say this, the VW1000ES was so impressive, that I really did try to buy one. As I've blogged, etc., every manufacturer I've ever asked, where I've been interested in buying their projector, has some form of accommodation plan with a nice discount. Generally I seem to be offered the same discount as an internal employee, or a dealer sales person. The discount was about as expected, and still way, way, way, out of my budget (I strained to buy the RS20 and it was only an $8K projector back in the day). I offered permissions, advertising, etc. to knock down the price to something I could afford. As expected, however, it did not happen. Well, maybe in 2-3 years there will be a VW3000 that's even better, that I can afford. And while I'm disclosing, especially since my three top award winners (over $3500) this year were the VW1000ES, the VW95ES and the JVC X70R, I can tell you that Sony has never spent a penny advertising with me, but I do get to go to their press dinners at shows, like everyone else. And JVC has only advertised briefly a couple years ago and once before that. Combined, I would estimate that Sony and JVC account over the last two years for 0% of our advertising revenues, and perhaps 0.5% over the last 5 years. And so it goes. -art

There is always some possibility that the Native On/Off that has always been the best indicator of how intrascene contrast will come out in dark scenes and the overall dynamic range is not as applicable on this super-expensive projector. I'm not saying it's true, I'm just saying it's possible. One reason could be due to such smaller pixels, they had to change some things drastically compared to 1080p projectors (and this would have to include the way light is coming through the pixel grid). It could also be that on this high-end projector they were able to improve the IRIS substantially above other Sony's (which means we still cannot see the IRIS but it is more aggressive than in the past).

The only way to know is to side-by-side them and measure various things to be sure. The Native On/Off however was not measured nearly as high as the JVC's, but intrascene contrast in dark scenes isn't purely based on any single measurement. Also on that one photo there is a lot of WHITE in the image, a more blackish image with a little gray might give us a better idea.

There are a lot of variables here...

Totally off-topic...

I'd like to see Avatar in 3D on Bluray (on my HW30) but I don't want to pay the eBay prices and I didn't purchase a Panny Bluray player to get a copy.

Would anyone with a copy like to temporarily exchange some 3D blurays for a week or two? We could cross ship and agree to mail back on some specific date. I've got Hugo 3D, Deep Sea 3D and Grand Canyon 3D. I'd be happy to mail any or all of these for a temporary exchange for Avatar 3D.

If anyone is interested, please drop me a PM. Oh, I'm in the USA FWIW.

Thanks in advance!

... Altan

WHY - it is commercially released now.

Why buy it on eBay?

Amazon has it for $29.

I see it for $135 on Amazon, not $29. Could you provide a link?