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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 14

post #391 of 3271
Quote:


5 years ago it was hard for me to consider LCD a serious contender among projection technology but to my surprise it has matured into a worthy contender. I am shocked at the performance and features delivered at this price point including 3D and wireless HD to your TV and much more.
Looks like the under 3k forum members have been having more fun then I thought

That's from AVS impressions.

Everyone should really check out the Epson before spending a lot more money then they need too. I've been having a blast with the 5010 and my budget allows for up to 10 000.00.

The blacks are really amazing and I thought I would seriously not be able to enjoy this projector after coming from the X70, but I can't help but say it. I LIKE THIS PROJECTOR MORE then the X70. Even in 2D! This is my best electronics purchase since my Acer a few years ago. Peace out. I won't be posting much anymore, maybe in the under 3500 forum.

I can't wait to see what Sony, JVC, and Epson bring out at the end of the year Lasers please!!!!

Unless Panasonic releases an 85" plasma this year for under 10k......I would drop 20" in size for a plasma picture. CES is just a week away.....
post #392 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

That's from AVS impressions.

Everyone should really check out the Epson before spending a lot more money then they need too. I've been having a blast with the 5010 and my budget allows for up to 10 000.00.

The blacks are really amazing and I thought I would seriously not be able to enjoy this projector after coming from the X70, but I can't help but say it. I LIKE THIS PROJECTOR MORE then the X70. Even in 2D! This is my best electronics purchase since my Acer a few years ago. Peace out. I won't be posting much anymore, maybe in the under 3500 forum.

I can't wait to see what Sony, JVC, and Epson bring out at the end of the year Lasers please!!!!

Unless Panasonic releases an 85" plasma this year for under 10k......I would drop 20" in size for a plasma picture. CES is just a week away.....

Wow, what an endorsement from you for the Epson! I will probably join you since I already have the Acer and just need the Epson. If I discover you've become an Epson dealer I won't be a happy camper!
post #393 of 3271
Awesome thread everyone, I have been lurking for a few weeks. I generally frequent the audio section of AVS but am in the market for a projector. After reading around I found an interesting and simple test that could be added to the already extensive work of Zombie.

The test is used to measure motion blur of different display technologies. I am curious to see how the different projectors will perform. The link to the test is here( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ion+resolution ) hopefully someone can make use of it!

I brought this subject up because I find myself to be very sensitive to motion blur and RBE. I used to visit dealers all the time but never liked how Sony or JVC handled motion, it was always very blurred and irritating to the eyes. Anyways I am wondering how the new crop of FPs have advanced in this area.

Forin
post #394 of 3271
any and all issues will be resolved with our product, always will...art can call me if he needs to get the answers!
post #395 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEN Q DUDE View Post

any and all issues will be resolved with our product, always will...art can call me if he needs to get the answers!

Does this include shipping if one purchases a first run of the W7000 or out of the box problem?
post #396 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

I still haven't bought any 3D yet though because of the competing tech ad the size; I have two Panny plasmas.

You are missing out on a great deal of family fun. I've had a smooth, ever increasing transition to 3D over several years. I plan for the future by buying the 3D Blu-ray versions instead of 2D. In this way I don't double-spend.

Your posted reminded me that the acceptance of 3D by consumers is higher in China than in the USA or Western Europe.
post #397 of 3271
January 2nd, 2012 Art Feierman
Greetings and Happy New Year!

OK, I got distracted with all the holiday activities. *Let me bring you all up to speed on what I finally heard back from BenQ, in terms of answers to my questions.

Lot’s of hopefully really good news:

I’ll run though a number of items I mentioned to them, and their response.

First, regarding the dip we found in the W7000′s cyan secondary color. * *BenQ says that is corrected in the January firmware. *That required Mike to go into the CMS to get a good calibration, something we normally don’t do.

Black Level not as good as the W6000: Their exact response: *”We did the measurement of the latest unit of W7000 and W6000 we have, and the result shows that they are about the same”

We expect that “about the same”, means the W7000 is at least as good, so we’ll cross our fingers until we get to test the new firmware.

Next: *When exiting 3D, found back in 2D with the lamp flickering: *BenQ response: *Fixed on the mass production units.

Aspect Ratio squished with DirecTV This turned out to be interesting, and not BenQ’s fault. *Out here, just about the same time the W7000 arrived, DirecTV changed their Guide and menu systems to HD resolution (finally after all these years). *Seems they are the cause of this problem. *I’ve seen this aspect ratio shift half a dozen times now, (mostly on CNBC, but not only), and I’ve now seen it do it on the Mitsubishi HC7800D, and also my 2 year old Sony LCDTV (which has never done anything like this before.

So, we can cross that one off the list.

Next:

Switching to User 1, all the settings seemed to be replaced by defaults. (temporarily, then upon power down and back up, your settings return)… *Response: *Will be fixed in next version F/W in Jan’12

Finally, as some of you know, BenQ has provided a small first shipment of projectors to dealers. *My understanding is that those units do not have all of the issues above addressed.

And that raised this big question: *What about the folks buying the early (late Dec.) projectors, in terms of getting the new firmware.

Good news there, too: The written word from BenQ: *”We will provide the FW upgrade service for those customers who buy the first batch projectors. Not a problem.”

(Hooray!) *I expected no less, of course.


I’ve written before, about BenQ being one of the more responsive companies out there – specifically several years back (in the 720p days), they had a serious lamp issue with their PE7700. They took care of everyone, upgrading every projector and replacing every lamp, where the problem showed up (and that was most of the projectors shipped the first 6 months (the lamps lasted, typically 500+ hours, not 2000, but that still means it took many months before anyone was aware of the issue. *BenQ even paid shipping for everyone to send in their PE7700s for upgrade!

That folks is it! * As predicted in the first blog, almost all the problems were of the nature of being the kind of problems that show up in engineering samples, that we expect are fixed by full production.


W7000 Projector - Killer on NFL football!

Of these, the most critical, by far, is the black levels. Black levels were a particular strength of the W6000 (along with brightness), offering probably the best blacks of any DLP home theater projector under $3000 last year, but not quite up to, say the Epson “UB” projectors like the 8700UB.

If the W7000 can match the W6000 in terms of blacks, it certainly will have to be considered one of the top performing projectors anywhere near the price.

And that takes me to talking about the formal review itself, which, but for these issues, should have published more than a week ago. *Instead, I’ve been focusing on these blogs to keep you all up to speed. *Here’s the plan going forward.

1. *Parts of the review are already completed, and will post in the next 48 hours. *Unfortunately, some critical sections will have to wait until I can get the firmware upgraded.


BenQ W7000 - image from the movie Red

2. *Going up first will be “most” of the Overview page (index), the Physical Tour page, the Performance page, parts of the Image Quality page (but not Black levels / shadow detail) which will have to wait for the firmware. *I will also put up the calibration page, although that likely will have some changes with the new firmware. *Hopefully, the new firmware will only require resetting the CMS (taking out the Cyan changes), and that the remaining settings will then provide the same results. *It may turn out that a new calibration will be needed to end up with the proper grayscale calibration.

*

For those of you who like to check out all the images, the photo shoot is long ago complete, so just about all of the images except those specifically used for discussions on black levels and shadow detail, should also be posted.

My hope will be that I can get firmware next week (or even this week?). *As soon as BenQ says “ok” I’ll make the 20 mile drive to their offices in Irvine CA, and get that firmware.) *My hope would be to have the review completed within 72 hours of getting the firmware!

That’s it folks, best we can do. *I’ll also be posting a “First Look” blog review of that Mitsubishi HC7800D, also hopefully in the next 48, and will endevour to have the full Mitsubishi review up over the weekend or next Monday.

*

Finally, a partial Summary page will also go up.

BUT! * A final determination as to whether the W7000 will qualify for a Hot Product Award, a Special Interest Award, or no award at all, will have to wait until I’ve had a close look at the next firmware.

And that folks, is it for now! *-art

PS. *one more time – Happy New Year
post #398 of 3271
Re: BenQ W7000 comments posted above what about the menu slowness (one person reported freezing forced to reboot) switching between 2D and 3D that many people have reported? I don't see it mentioned in Art's comments re: him mentioning it to BenQ (and thus no comment if fixed in January firmware update). Also from Art's preview: Back to 3D and brightness. I’m hoping this will change, but the single 3D mode that exists isn’t near as bright on the screen as the brightest 2D mode, and that’s before you put on the glasses. This may well change.

Has anyone played around with BC in regards to 3D that Art talks about (am curious what was used in this shootout when measuring 3D lumens w/o glasses on the W7000):

When in 3D with BC On, the projector seems to be in a Warm or Normal Color Temp modes – basically, based on our calibrated best. When I went to the Color Temp settings, though and tried to change to other Color Temps, I could change it from Normal to Warm, Cool and Native, but while the words changed, the picture did not. That’s right, essentially, in 3D on this projector, the Color Temp looks good, but we can’t get to the one really bright mode – Native.

But:

Turn Brilliant Color to OFF, and strangely, now 3D drops into the Native Color Temp mode, and brightness goes up.

Now that I’m aware of these idiosyncrasies, I’ll take another look, against the Epson to see which one rules in terms of brightness. It’s quite possible I was in their “3D best”, rather than 3D brightest. I don’t think so, but, I’ll get back to you. Real soon!

----
So at the top of this topic where W7000 lumens are stated from the shootout is this with BC on or off? What color temp was the projector in when taking the 3D lumens reading? It would be nice to get more lumens than 894 in a 3D mode considering this projector has 2000 lumen rating and so many lumens are lost when putting the glasses on.

Ben Q W7000: ~15 hours on the lamp

2D mode @ D65 = 1062 Lumens (Normal)
3D mode @ D65 = 894 Lumens (Normal)
post #399 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

You are missing out on a great deal of family fun. I've had a smooth, ever increasing transition to 3D over several years. I plan for the future by buying the 3D Blu-ray versions instead of 2D. In this way I don't double-spend.

Your posted reminded me that the acceptance of 3D by consumers is higher in China than in the USA or Western Europe.

Just because China is adopting it quicker doesn't create demand for me. Let's not even talk about trade imbalance.
post #400 of 3271
Alright folks, I spent way too much time this weekend playing with projectors but I think I've seen enough to give my overall opinions. These are all SUBJECTIVE between myself and friends. I had 4 guys come over to view each one of these units at seperate times and showed them the same viewing materials. All projectors were given a basic calibration for the usual calibration options. My room is completely blacked out with a black ceiling and extremely dark (near black) side walls. I have a 140" AT screen with about a 18-19FT image throw. Below are how the units stacked up and some quick notes on each category. *Please ignore spelling errors, in a hurry to get this posted.**

2D (DirecTV) Viewing

This was an interesting one. I was all set to give the 5010 the crown in this category but the more I watched it, the more I hated it. The Epson for whatever reason REALLY shows imperfections in the picture or input signal. A lot of TV shows would look great one minute and the next channel would look like utter crap with massive grain. The JVC and BenQ handled imperfections much better but neither unit were perfect either. The JVC hid grain best but because of the sharpness and "pop" of DLP I found the BenQ the most pleasing for regular viewing. The BenQ really excelled for sports, the Epson did good with movies that were in HD, and the JVC did a little of both. I would have no problem making the W7000 my everyday projector for regular TV/Sports because I feel it did best in this category.


First - BenQ W7000
Second - JVC RS45
Third - Epson 5010


2D Bluray Viewing

This category was hard to rank because it really comes down to personal preference. All three of these units are amazing in their own special way, but the JVC is the most "cinema" like in my opinion and what most people favored while viewing with me. The Epson favors more of a a high end LED LCD and really looks like a cross combination of LCD/LCOS/DLP, and the W7000 obviously favors a DLP with the "pop" and "wow" factor which tended to over-emphasize colors at time.

I put in the Lord of the Rings on bluray while projecting on the W7000 and one of my friends quickly commented "no need to show me the others, no way the others look better than this." I then switched over to the JVC and Epson and he quickly said "ok, how much do these projectors cost because this is ijust downright incredible!"

First - JVC RS45
Second - Epson 5010
Third - BenQ W7000


3D Viewing

Did I really rank an LCD above a DLP? Why yes I did! The 5010 is insanely bright in 3D and trumps the W7000 on my 1.2 gain screen in light output. You can literally take the glasses on and off and notice very little light drop which is amazing. I will say the 5010 ghosted more than my 3010 did which really has me scratching my head because the 3010 did not ghost AT ALL. The only difference is I am using panasonic 3D glasses instead of the official epson ones so I honestly feel this is a contributing factor. The W7000 would be king in this category IMO if the light output was higher because I only noticed 1 instance of crosstalk and that was on ESPN3D motorcross. The brightness output of the W7000 was also just far too dimm compared to what it displays in 2D and it worries me as the bulb ages it would get to be too dimm on my theater AT screen. I did not open my JVC 3D kit but I had the RS40 last year and I think everyone knows how bad the JVC can ghost. I will say it is a true shame that JVC didn't improve the 3D much over last year's offering because the added depth to the image on the JVC really stands out.

For what it is worth, I watched close to 20 different scenes in 3D from various movies that people typically complain about for this test between the Epson and BenQ.

First - Epson 5010
Second - BenQ W7000
Third - JVC RS45


Black Level Performance

There have been reports of people saying the 5010 can give the JVC a run for its money and they are correct, but from everyone that viewed each projector, including myself, we all liked the JVC best. I mainly watched darker movie scenes for this test (various ones from the matrix, star wars, star trek, horror movies) and there is just something magical about how the JVC's displays blacks compared to the Epson. The scene in Transformers 3 where cybertron is geting energized towards the end of the movie is breathtaking to say the least on the JVC. I would say for 75-80% of the people in the world the 5010 would be just fine but I honestly cannot say it is better than the JVC. I also have black level inconsistency across my screen with the 5010 where as the JVC was only a little bright in the corners. The W7000 was just poor compared to the other two and not even in the same league.

First - JVC RS45
Second - Epson 5010
Third - BenQ W7000


Motion Handling

Pretty simple test, I watched a lot of action movie scenes and if I noticed judder or jerkiness I recorded it and moved on. Overall all these units handle motion quite well and I think the whole argument that the JVC is poor at handling motion is ridiculous to be honest. It ranks last in my test but it is by no means BAD or unwatachable. The Epson and W7000 were very, very close to one another except with the 5010 I would notice the screen door effect on high contrast scenes where with the W7000 it was pretty much smooth and concise through all my tests. I will say there is something special about how the 5010 handles motion because with FI on low it is almost mesmerizing.

First - BenQ W7000
Second - Epson 5010 (close first)
Third - JVC RS45


Sharpness

Make no mistakes about it, all these units are sharp once you calibrate them. The BenQ looked sharp no matter what I threw at it while the JVC and Epson would taper off with regular TV viewing. The only thing I will say is this would sometimes work against the BenQ and it made some content look really "blocky" or larger-than-usual grain, even with some blurays (Transformers 3 car chase scene is a great example.) I can't really describe it but it is very noticeable at times once you realize it is there. I would say if calibrated really well I could see the JVC being as-sharp or more than the W7000. For the Epson, my projector had 2 red pixels shifted across the entire screen and using the built-in LCD alignment tool I was able to limit it down to just part of the screen. The convergence issue is not noticeable from seating/viewing distance but I can't help feel that the Epson should be a tad sharper than this. I plan on swapping out the unit and will report back if the replacement looks any better in this area.

First - BenQ W7000
Second - JVC RS45
Third - Epson 5010


Game Performance

None of these projectors are "fantastic" for gaming based on recorded input lag time, but none of them are unplayable by any means; Let's face it, most of you are not pro gamers and playing offline is not near as bad as playing online with these. I noticed the input lag a lot less with the W7000 than the other two and really the Epson and JVC are about on the same wavelength together. I am ranking the Epson higher because it handles motion better IMO and it is definitely a lot less "jerky" in some action-intense games. The JVC and Epson show their ugly faces if you hook up a PC to them and move the mouse around fast, it is pretty noticeable. Interestingly enough it is not hard to adapt in most games and none of my friends even commented on feeling "lag" while playing. I made them play Madden 12, MW3, Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Forza 4 which allowed for a good test in a wide range of games. FI was turned OFF on all units because this feature definitely introduced additional input lag. For what it is worth, all of these guys are gamers and own a PS3 and/or an Xbox 360.

First - BenQ W7000
Second - Epson 5010
Third - JVC RS45


Audible Noise (ranked lowest to highest)

Basic sound test, I put on a "talking" scene from star trek and put each projector in eco/normal mode and made note of how loud they appeared from my seating position. The JVC in all modes was the most quiet, followed by the w7000, and finally the 5010. I have no idea why but the 5010 sounds like a jet in normal mode, especially if you flick on dynamic 3D mode.

First - JVC RS45
Second - BenQ W7000
Third - Epson 5010

Recommendations

JVC RS45 - The JVC to me is pretty much the king for 2D viewing, mainly for movies and I would imagine on most people's setup would be perfectly fine for TV viewing as well. Because the bulbs aren't cheap and also because of how the JVC favors more of a neutral or film-like picture, the JVC is not as exciting to view TV compared to say the W7000 or 5010. I will say the RS45 was the most consistent between channels though for color accuracy and unnecessary grain. The JVC, much like the Epson commands, a good input signal in order to have a "blow you away" picture. SD and even some HD channels looked very sub-par to me on my screen but I think this is because I favor the look of DLP or LCD over LCOS for TV. Out of all the projectors for bluray viewing, the JVC hands down won more "wow" moments from my friends and I had one person swear the projector had to of cost well over $5k.

Epson 5010 - I rank this unit overall the best for 2D/3D usage. The 2D can be absolutely gorgeous if fed the right signal and 3D is hands down the best I've seen out of the 13 projectors I've had this year. I honestly tried to like the Epson for TV viewing and planned on making it my new "TV/3D only" projector but I can't get around the grain it shows on a large amount of TV content and I also had too many unplesant moments with the colors beng out of whack from channel-to-channel. While watchng blurays the Epson looked spot-on calibraton wise, but when watchng TV one program looked fine for skin tones and the next they looked like pumpkins. For regular bluray/3D viewing, the Epson looks like a huge plasma/LED LCD on your wall and will definitely impress those that like bright colors.

BenQ W7000 - Ah the one projector I want to love but can't. First off the 3D firmware issues were embarassing trying to do a demonstration. BenQ should be ashamed to release a projector with 3D issues of this magnitude to consumers, especially with a $2,500 price tag. I also am extremely disappointed in the light output from the BenQ when put into 3D mode. I am using second generation Optoma DLP-Link glasses which are highly favored over at Amazon for their quality, and this unit is substantially dimmer than the Epson 5010. 3D issues aside, the W7000 has potential to be the best overall unit for a large number of people if they have a higher gain screen for 3D. The 2D image the W7000 puts out is beautiful, sharp, and bright on a large majority of content and I never really noticed any rainbow issues most DLP units have. If you can get around the black level performance this would make a fantastic 2D/gaming projector. If BenQ can fix the 3D problems I would have no reservations in recommending this projector to people. An interesting note is my BenQ is slated to be returned to projector people tomorrow but a friend that saw it the day I got it bought one as well and his unit behaves the exact same way as mine and we used his for the demonstrations so it is not a one-off occurance.

There you have it folks. I know many of you will be up in arms because I don't have formal benchmarks or statistics to prove my opinions but I honestly didn't have time with the holidays. I wanted to do normal average-joe viewing and make form opinions based on what a majority of the world would do with these projectors (pull them out of the box, do a basic calibration, and fire in the hole.) All three of these projectors are ahead of what was available in this price point from last year so keep in mind by the time some of you make a decision on what unit to get, these things will be obsolete this time next year

For those wondering I've decided that the Epson 5010 will be my main theater projector going forward for 2D bluray/3D viewing and I plan on picking up the Acer 9500 to test against the W7000 for the spot of my TV-only/gaming projector in the other room. The main reason I decided on the Epson is because in bluray content it is so close to the JVC in picture quality and black levels, along with having better motion handing capabilities, that having good 3D outweighs the difference in 2D quality IMO.

Thanks to my buddies that stopped by to help me plow through almost $8k worth of projectors, it was definitely a fun time.
post #401 of 3271
I took my W7000 and my X30 to my local FedEx Office today. They will ship out tomorrow afternoon.

I returned the W7000 due to the bugs and the projector's horrible blacks (I'm not willing to use a filter for the blacks, as the 'D65ers' on this forum apparently are - for I'm a lumens freak. The blacks are about the same as my old Panny 200, IMO.

I returned the X30 due to the ghosting. And, I didn't find the blacks of the X30 to be worth the $800 price difference when I compared it to my 8700UB. With star fields, the black of the night sky looked the same on the X30 and the 8700UB, in my true bat cave, on my 159" 16:9 (78x139) HP screen. The stars were brighter on the X30 - but not $800 brighter to me.

To test how much of a 'hit' 3D takes compared to 2D (not with meters - but with the eyes looking at the screen), I 'borrowed' a Panny 215 from Costco (I'm going to hell for sure now). I used the player to play 2D on the 8700UB, while I used my Panny 110 to play 3D on the X30.

For a reference disc, I used my Avatar 3D disc (X30 with my 110), and I rented a Avatar 2D BD disc from BB (8700UB with the 215).

By using the 'hide' button on the JVC, and the 'blank' button on the 8700UB - I was able to compare the 3D Avatar of the X30 to the 2D Avatar of the 8700UB in real time, on my HP. While some light shows on the screen when the hide/blank buttons are used, I found (by holding a disc case in front of the lens) that the 'added light' wasn't an issue - even in dark scenes.

My take on this is that 3D takes too big of a PQ hit, due to the HUGE lumens loss. This plus the lack of 'good' 3D movies (for anyone over the age of 10) - has me passing on 3D at this time. Maybe next year.

P.S.
I want to give two big thumbs up to Art (at Projector Reviews), for having the balls to tell it like it is. Both last year (as a reviewer, it took HUGE balls to return the RS60 to JVC, and tell them that their new flagship was too DIM in 3D) and this year, he has been the only reviewer to post that last year's and this year's 3D projectors are too DIM in 3D on 100+" screens.
post #402 of 3271
That's another endorsement for the Epson! I'm seriously thinking about giving this unit a try. I'm used to ghost-free 3d so I'm really curious how this one will fare. I'd also like to know how you like the Acer 9500 once you have a chance to compare. If you can, will you run it against the Epson in 3D?
post #403 of 3271
Thread Starter 
jmalto - thanks for the great info! how do you think the W7000 3D brightness compared to the RS45? The reason i ask is, I measure over 100 lumens higher in 3D mode on the W7000 vs. the RS45. If you saw a significant difference, I am wondering if something isn't right. I thought the W7000 was a bit brighter through the glasses than the RS45.

The only 3D issues I had on the W7000 was the length of time it took to get into 2D and 3D modes. What other issues did you guys run into?
post #404 of 3271
jmalto, that is an interesting comparo, and I have no doubt the 5010 is a nice unit, but I doubt it is ghost free. Myself, I hate a filmlike image because all that says to me is that the image is soft. If the image stinks I want my display to show me it stinks. 1 for 1 if you will. Would be nice if I could then tone the stink down. I have not yet given up on the BenQ or even the Acer, but the 5010 does now have my attention. While 3LCD is pretty impressive, I am not sold that it is better than a single chip DLP for ultimate sharpness and 3d. It is really that simple for me right now and while I want the best blacks, that may be less important than a sharper pic because I see that immediately. The blacks, my brain tricks me into that one and it is less of a problem. That has always been the DLP LCD thing now hasn't it? I do thank you for posting your observations though and they are very interesting to say the least. Now back to painting my ceiling.
post #405 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Alright folks, I spent way too much time this weekend playing with projectors but I think I've seen enough to give my overall opinions.

Big thanks for writing up your thoughts!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Motion Handling

Pretty simple test, I watched a lot of action movie scenes and if I noticed judder or jerkiness I recorded it and moved on. ...

Is this section providing your thoughts on how the 3 projectors implement FI? Since I plan to always have FI disabled, I wanted to verify this is "motion with FI".

... Altan
post #406 of 3271
Zombie -I am going off memory from my RS40 but I think the W7000 is as dimm or dimmer in 3D. I used the BG-ZD101 glasses from Optoma for the test. There were no other issues with the projector other than 3D hangups while switching modes and lock ups coming out of 3D back to 2D. If BenQ can get these sorted out through the firmware update I think this projector will be a winner for those not obssessive with black level performance. I really wonder if you would like the BenQ so much (light output wise) if you didn't have a higher gain screen than me. I really am tempted to abandon my AT screen in favor of a higher gain but I would pretty much have to take down most of my false wall that I spent an entire summer building.

Mike - The 3010 was 99% ghost-free when I had it. It seems to be very hit or miss if people experience ghosting with the Epsons because when I did my comparison against the HD33 some people replied back they had no ghosting either while others did. I've seen this pop up with the JVC this year as well. I am ordering a pair of Epson glasses this morning and calling about a replacement projector so we'll see how it goes. A couple of the people that helped push me towards the 5010 also reported back very minimal ghosting.

Myers - This was motion handling without FI being introduced. I was going to do a seperate FI section and build-quality as well but ran out of time last night. To me the BenQ does FI the best without it being as noticeable, followed by the JVC and rounding up with the Epson. FI in 3D really helps for some reason and this is where the BenQ has an advantage in 3D since the others do not allow it. I would say CMD3 on the JVC is the same as low on the Epson as the 5010 is much more aggressive with FI compared to the other two.
post #407 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

jmalto, that is an interesting comparo, and I have no doubt the 5010 is a nice unit, but I doubt it is ghost free. Myself, I hate a filmlike image because all that says to me is that the image is soft. If the image stinks I want my display to show me it stinks. 1 for 1 if you will. Would be nice if I could then tone the stink down. I have not yet given up on the BenQ or even the Acer, but the 5010 does now have my attention. While 3LCD is pretty impressive, I am not sold that it is better than a single chip DLP for ultimate sharpness and 3d. It is really that simple for me right now and while I want the best blacks, that may be less important than a sharper pic because I see that immediately. The blacks, my brain tricks me into that one and it is less of a problem. That has always been the DLP LCD thing now hasn't it? I do thank you for posting your observations though and they are very interesting to say the least. Now back to painting my ceiling.

While the image on the JVC is film like, it is not soft at all. I own two DLP projectors (Marantz and Planar) and my RS45 has no problem holding it's own in the sharpness department.
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post #408 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

While the image on the JVC is film like, it is not soft at all. I own two DLP projectors (Marantz and Planar) and my RS45 has no problem holding it's own in the sharpness department.

I agree, I have now spent 100 hours comparing on the JVC to a DLP, and it is very complex to describe the differences, but the above is a good simple way to say it. I would never describe the JVC as looking soft, I've described some older LCOS like that, but not the RS-45. Even for HTPC, it's so close to DLP I don't care about more sharpness to be honest, maybe in some very extreme situations (but doubtfully).

In my conclusion, it has to do with the type of noise in the image intermixed with the lighting that can hurt the JVC's processing occasionally, but not all noise in the image hurts it in the same manner, as there are obviously different types of image noise and camera work and what not all combining. The movie "Into the Wild" is one of only a handful of movies that has some of this "TV-LIKE" noise in it that tends to favor DLP again. So far I favor the JVC in about 19 out of 20 movies to a Mits hc4000, Viewsonic Pro8200, and a few other DLP's. The Mits hc4000 is still my favorite sub $2500 DLP, it is very clean even when there is noise in the image, cleaner than the Benq's IMO if that is what someone is after. For animated films, the JVC still does very good, I can only favor DLP in animated films if the majority of the content is bright scenes (say 75% to 85%+), because the JVC comes close enough in most bright scenes that if there are enough dark scenes the JVC will also win in animated films. In well filmed movies, I generally favor the JVC in almost all scenes (Bright, Dark, you name it).
post #409 of 3271
Thread Starter 
great news, I'll have the Epson 5010 here in a few days to check out. With the praise from some of our critical members, I have to see it in person now.

I'm going to run through all the same 3D tests, etc.

stay tuned.....!!!
post #410 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

great news, I'll have the Epson 5010 here in a few days to check out. With the praise from some of our critical members, I have to see it in person now.

I'm going to run through all the same 3D tests, etc.

stay tuned.....!!!

Now we are talking !!!
post #411 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

great news, I'll have the Epson 5010 here in a few days to check out. With the praise from some of our critical members, I have to see it in person now.

I'm going to run through all the same 3D tests, etc.

stay tuned.....!!!

Any chance of adding the VW95 to the mix? That's seems to be the only other major pj missing (assuming you have an RS55 in the mix already).
post #412 of 3271
I like the LCD in the comparison. Seems like so many on this forum only consider dlp and lcos. As a gamer, the Panny 7000 is still my top choice. Most of the brightness of the Epson with much better lag (I assume) and dimmer best mode, so 3D brightness should more closely match 2D brightness.
post #413 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

great news, I'll have the Epson 5010 here in a few days to check out. With the praise from some of our critical members, I have to see it in person now.

I'm going to run through all the same 3D tests, etc.

stay tuned.....!!!

Uh oh, you are +1 on me already for 2012.. I better go order that Acer ASAP! Make sure you order the Epson glasses, the Panasonic ones show a fair amount of ghosting. I just got my Playstation 3D glasses tonight and plan on giving them a go to see if it does the same as the others I used for my test.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts. +1 for Epson's amazing support, I was on the phone 10 minutes and after answering 4 questions they decided to overnight me a brand new unit and are paying returning shipping as mentioned by Conan. That is service, folks!

wniel - My older brother owns the Panny and I feel the Epson looks a tad better in 2D but this was his setup vs. mine and not near the same room conditions so not necessarly a fair fight. It is definitely a nice projector and I was planning on ordering one until I heard about all the flickering issues after you put a decent amount of hours on the bulbs.
post #414 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Uh oh, you are +1 on me already for 2012.. I better go order that Acer ASAP! Make sure you order the Epson glasses, the Panasonic ones show a fair amount of ghosting. I just got my Playstation 3D glasses tonight and plan on giving them a go to see if it does the same as the others I used for my test.

Can't wait to hear your thoughts. +1 for Epson's amazing support, I was on the phone 10 minutes and after answering 4 questions they decided to overnight me a brand new unit and are paying returning shipping as mentioned by Conan. That is service, folks!

Do you have the Epson glasses? if so, how do you like them? I have a pair of the Epson's arriving with the projector. I'd like to see if the MV3D IR receiver works with the Epson's emitter. I don't recall anyone mentioning if they tried the MV3D's yet on this model.
post #415 of 3271
First this is a good thread because so many are getting off their lazy duffs and writing excellent observations. Remarkable!

I'm going to state some findings for which enough evidence has come in.
Someone I know went to the I/ITSEC 2011 which has the usual high-end projector companies.

The best image quality was the projector which had an LED light source. Think that finding has something to do with motion clarity? The image quality was very close otherwise.

For DLP, an LED light source eliminates the color wheel (rainbow effect) and its filtering. Since most people can't see rainbows, the value added vs cost is questionable.

For LCD/LCoS displays it eliminates (or greatly reduces) 2D motion blur as no one enjoys viewing 2 million "slow" pixels continuously switch between states. This is why the best flat panels are already strobed LED for 2011. Further the Sharp PRO extends the concept with two types of strobes (full screen and local dimming).

So the best liquid crystal projector must be solid state powered (LED or laser). Sony was represented with their new 4K 1000 projector. My acquittance liked their LCOS, but is waiting for a secret, unannounced new light source with a claimed 20,000 hour lifespan. You see Sony knows better - and now you do too!

Here is nice expensive LED powered DLP :
http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/fl35-wqxga
post #416 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Uh oh, you are +1 on me already for 2012.. I better go order that Acer ASAP! Make sure you order the Epson glasses, the Panasonic ones show a fair amount of ghosting. I just got my Playstation 3D glasses tonight and plan on giving them a go to see if it does the same as the others I used for my test.

Could you please let us know how the Sony PS3 3D glasses work out. I can get these locally for a fair price -- if Zombie gives a thumbs up for the Epson I'll probably order one. I'm a little worried that after the honeymoon wears off Conan48 will be trashing his Epson like he trashed the Sony.
post #417 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Could you please let us know how the Sony PS3 3D glasses work out. I can get these locally for a fair price -- if Zombie gives a thumbs up for the Epson I'll probably order one. I'm a little worried that after the honeymoon wears off Conan48 will be trashing his Epson like he trashed the Sony.

Just went to get these off my doorstep and it was a package for the wife, they are scheduled for delivery tomorrow
post #418 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Do you have the Epson glasses? if so, how do you like them? I have a pair of the Epson's arriving with the projector. I'd like to see if the MV3D IR receiver works with the Epson's emitter. I don't recall anyone mentioning if they tried the MV3D's yet on this model.

They came with the 3010 and I had no issues with them to be honest. They are a little heavier than the Panasonic's from what I remember and the 5010 has a few settings you can interact with the glasses to help improve ghosting and brightness.

My PS glasses did not show today, unfortunately. Here is a thread I digged up to help determine which glasses work with the Epson's and it appears one member has used the monster setup: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372529

I am starting to debate on the Acer 9500 at this point, there are a lot of issues floating around which could be a bad batch like the Epsons which would explain why nobody has these in stock except Tiger (no comment). I am strongly considering the HW30 again as my "every day" projector since I've narrowed down the Epson as my theater unit and between the two I think will round out the best experience for all worlds - 2D bluray/TV, 3D, Gaming.
post #419 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

2D (DirecTV) Viewing
This was an interesting one. I was all set to give the 5010 the crown in this category but the more I watched it, the more I hated it. The Epson for whatever reason REALLY shows imperfections in the picture or input signal. A lot of TV shows would look great one minute and the next channel would look like utter crap with massive grain. The JVC and BenQ handled imperfections much better but neither unit were perfect either. The JVC hid grain best but because of the sharpness and "pop" of DLP I found the BenQ the most pleasing for regular viewing. The BenQ really excelled for sports, the Epson did good with movies that were in HD, and the JVC did a little of both. I would have no problem making the W7000 my everyday projector for regular TV/Sports because I feel it did best in this category.

First - BenQ W7000
Second - JVC RS45
Third - Epson 5010

2D Bluray Viewing
This category was hard to rank because it really comes down to personal preference. All three of these units are amazing in their own special way, but the JVC is the most "cinema" like in my opinion and what most people favored while viewing with me. The Epson favors more of a a high end LED LCD and really looks like a cross combination of LCD/LCOS/DLP, and the W7000 obviously favors a DLP with the "pop" and "wow" factor which tended to over-emphasize colors at time.

I put in the Lord of the Rings on bluray while projecting on the W7000 and one of my friends quickly commented "no need to show me the others, no way the others look better than this." I then switched over to the JVC and Epson and he quickly said "ok, how much do these projectors cost because this is ijust downright incredible!"

First - JVC RS45
Second - Epson 5010
Third - BenQ W7000

Let add in the Mitsubishi 7800 from Projector Central:
"2D Image Quality

High Definition. The HC7800D has very slight, barely noticeable advantages in a number of areas, but the cumulative effect is greater than the sum of its parts. The HC7800D has higher contrast, more three-dimensionality and depth, more accurate color, a sharper picture, and less digital noise than either the 5010 or the AE7000. It has a smooth, natural, film-like image that brings out the best in any HD content."
Note: mediocre black level in 7800 too
post #420 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

I am starting to debate on the Acer 9500 at this point, there are a lot of issues floating around which could be a bad batch like the Epsons which would explain why nobody has these in stock except Tiger (no comment).

I too am curious about this sudden drought with the 9500. I guess I will wait and see where that goes as far as issues as well as how the W7000 bugaboos are dealt with. Yes I am a DLP fanboy but I currently have an 8350. Go figure.
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