JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 16

He doesn't use the pool table for pool. It came with his house and its really heavy and almost impossible to move. It does make a lovely surface for photographing projectors and glasses. Green really makes a great background for photos making objects pop.

I learned that in a Moose Peterson nature photo class in Naples, Fla at the Nature Conservatory site. Birds and green backgrounds.

Still got those Sony glasses eh Zombie? Thought they were being banished to ebay?

Can't wait for more.

Jason. Great that you like the Epson. Are you also noticing the "pop" that this projector produces? It has a clarity that I would normally find on a flat panel.

For me personally I'm finding that I prefer the more digital look of the Epson vs. the film look of LCOS. It's kinda like would u rather have a 100" + plasma or a film projector?

I have said for several months this is one very good projector and Jason's findings pretty much mimmick my and Tom's initial observations since Tom made his while at my place.

I never had the right glasses so I really couldn't view 3D when I had the machine.

The thing is too bright in torch mode but at least you can save on having to put the room lights on to grab a Pappy Van bourbon refill. Just flip it into torch mode and even if you have a .8 gain gray screen, you will have plenty of light to pick the bottle of 20 over the 23.

Now you see why I sold my RS45? I think the JVC still had it in the 2D department but the 5010 is a great combo of the JVC's 2D and the BenQ's 3D.

The Epson looks better calibrated, spend about 15 minutes and do the basic stuff. I borrowed Art's settings for my groundwork and they were surprisingly almost spot-on so I think he must have a lower gain screen like me.

I really enjoy the Epson, only if I could get the HDTV situation worked out on my setup. I really am starting to think I have too big of a screen for how close I sit which contributes a lot to my "unhappiness" with image grain/noise. I placed an order for a 119" HP Da-Lite Model C pulldown this morning just to try it out in my secondary room so we'll see if that makes any difference.

The 3D Dynamic mode is pretty amazing on the Epson, I cannot hardly tell any brightness drop with the glasses on and taking them off. The colors do get a little whacky but I think it can be tweaked with calibration time. I think the best part of the 3D is even if it ghosts/crosstalk it is not all that noticeable and "in your face" like other projectors I've seen. It might be the brightness helping it here.

I am looking forward to your input lag tests. I did a lot of "non-scientific" tests on the 3010 with various games and I find the 5010 to be a tad more responsive so I think the lag is improved, but it still isn't that great compared to how the BenQ behaved.

Did you ever see an 8700ub?
It looked similar to me, but the 5010 was sharper and had a little more POP. The black levels are about the same honestly, but the IRIS might be slightly improved.

The Epson is a good alternative to the Sony, but you'll have to let us know which one you think handles 3D better.

OK, there are several of you raving over the 5010. I am sure it's been discussed, but do you game and is it tolerable?

I saw the 6010 at my local A/V store and was so impressed it has went to the top of my list. The 3D looked very bright.

Thanks

I absolutely hate fan noise regardless of my room size. Moving to a small HT room with the PJ almost directly overhead it will be especially noticable. Please be sure to comment on the noise levels 2D & 3D. All else being considered, this one point may be a make/break point for me vs. the HW30. Art's review (http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...5010/index.php) mentioned the 5010 is on the noisy side.

Also, the 3010 glasses thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1372529&page=7) is reporting very good results with PlayStation 3D glasses. If these are compatible with the 5010, do you have any of these to compare amongst your selection?

Its all trade offs again re noise. Besically, more light, more heat, bigger more expensive chassis and cooling design or crank the fan speed up on the small chassis and increase the noise level but keep the machine affordable. Solution? Put it in a hush box if the noise bothers you.se. If you want a budget projector, you may do to some hands on work but its all rather dooable and not very expensive.

I didn't see too many white uniformity or black uniformity issues on the 8500ub's and 8700ub's I've seen, one had a teeny teeny bit. I did see convergence issues on several 8500's and 8700's, and a few did have uniformity issues, but bad convergence bothered me more. I've seen quite a few of them. The convergence on the 5010 I saw looked good, but I didn't have time to test it, but it was better than the 8500ub I owned. Of course this projector does give you around 100-200 more lumens in a best mode over the 8700ub, and the torch modes are more bareable than the 8700ub's torch modes. Also, you get 3D, so in that sense I suppose it's worth it.

Here is what Art said in comparing the 8700ub and 5010:
"Ultimately though, the 2D performance other than brightness seems to be pretty much the same."

Other than the sharpness being a bit better, I have to agree with Art, it looks the same as an 8700ub for the most part.
Sorry if I see it differently than some of you, just giving my honest opinion.

Thank you for the preview! Sounds like an exciting PJ, and it looks the best IMO aesthetically too Might be a bit reflective being white in a batcave but for most of us it would do just fine.

Jason, I noticed your mention of the greenish tint with the Nvidia glasses + Acer combo. I just wanted to add my experience as well. My particular glasses (2 pairs) don't have a greenish cast or tint at all. They actually have a slight copper/bronze tint. I'll try to take a picture of them and post in the 3D forums perhaps. But the tint is completely not visible with my particular nvidia + Acer combo once 3D mode is engaged, and glasses are put on, its crystal clear.

Actually, I and a few others viewing my setup prefer the color + overall IQ in 3D mode vs the 2D mode. My lamp has a strong red component however, so maybe the glasses balance everything out. Skin tones are perferct with the glasses on, but slightly too red without the glasses. Was just admiring the skin tones in 3D mode watching Drive Angry the other day.

However not every lamp, PJ, etc. is identical, there are variations. And not to mention our own eyes probably add to the whole equation. I know that there was a particular batch of Nvidia glasses that had a red tint actually, so even the tint may vary somewhat.

Anyways, sorry for the OT...

Looking forward to see how you find the 2D picture of the Epson in comparison to Sony. Will be very interesting as they are priced virtually the same. Iris noise + SDE is the only issue I have read about with Epsons (previous generation).

The 5010's fan noise is perfectly fine in ECO but when you switch it to Normal mode or in 3D Dynamic it really comes alive. I would say it reminds me of what the older Xbox360's used to sound like. It will throttle itself up and down so it is not a constant sound. Out of all the projectors I tested it was definitely the loudest though.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I think some projectors accomplish more than one would think with the numbers. I beleive both the Sony HW30 and Epson 5010 are about 5K to 1 native, and much higher with the DI. Now its just a matter of if the Epson's DI is quiet, and fast like the Sony's. Would love to check one out myself.

Regarding 3D colour... Yes I agree its quite hard to quantify right now. Only other glasses Im familiar with are the Panny 2nd gen, and the Sony current gen (on the NX929 I believe). For my preferences, they were equally non-intrusive colour wise as compared to my particular Nvisions. I just tried the Nvisions again right now (with them off), and they actually dont have any obvious tint on my Viewsonic CRT montitor, only a darkening effect.

The biggest pet pieve of mine is skin tones, and for that I find the combo I have perfect in 3D mode, and dont notice any haze or colour effect that bothers me. Drive Angry, Avatar, Res Evil 3D are the main movies Ive used to set the colour in 3D mode, and the skin tones are just perfect to my eyes.

I was thinking of trying the Monster glasses with my Acer (actually the identical Optoma RF with their 3DXL unit), but then I figured if I like it the way it is, why bother. Would be nice to have a solid RF sync though

Enjoy, you have got an envious task ahead of you!

I'm going for the monster glasses based on Zombie's opinion.

I appreciate the comparisons, I really do, I am just saying that people shouldn't expect a world of difference between the 8500ub/8700ub/5010 in 2D. I love the comparisons, but there is no substitute for actually owning a projector, so I felt like I had to comment

We are all awaiting Zombie's 3D and 2D opinion on Sony vs. Epson, his opinion of how it matches to the Epson should give me a good idea in general since I've owned both the JVC's and the Epsons.

Sounds like someone is REALLY trying to justify their purchase Don't bother with the JVC for 3D. You will never be happy

It's been mentioned many times. Comparing the JVC or Sony to the Epson is like comparing apples to oranges. Both are goood in different ways. You can't just say the JVC is better then the Epson. Maybe for you it is, but I would venture to say that many would choose the Epson in a shootout for the exact opposite reasons many would choose the JVC.

I choose the Epson and yes I prefer the image to the X70 which is a significant upgrade from the x30. Not because the Epson is more film like but preciously because it is the opposite of film like.

As for gaming. I do game with the PS3 and Xbox and don't notice lag unless I turn on FI and then the lag is definetly there. Most of my gaming is done on the PC as Consoles are really for kids

First, I never said the JVC was all-out better than the Epson, show me where I said that?

I have no problem with someone liking the Epson more, but this forum is about getting good information
BUT for what I care about the most, that's those reference quality movies, I like the JVC, sorry.

I wouldn't want to be your dealer. LOL.

Don't worry I'm not attacking your opinions. You just seem to post the same thing over and over. I really like my JVC The only way to really compare a projector is to have them in the same theater, with the same lighting, screen, etc. and a quick demo is not enough to judge any projector. I've heard people say that the JVC was crap after a showroom demo and the same with the Epson. BTW, where did you see the Epson 5010?

You seem like a pretty exciteable guy and and post ALOT. Keep working on your projector comparison project, it could be useful to the newbs and maybe sticky one day.

OK, well I wont comment on it anymore in this thread after this final clarification. You have to be careful about accusing people of purchase justification so quickly, we're all past that point long ago, we've all done it in the past, but that was like in 2007

Both me and Art owned an 8500ub (or he owned the 8700ub), we both agree it looks about the same as the 5010 with some slight improvements.

Exactly! That's why I own both. Epson 5010 for 3D. RS55/X70 for 2D: E-shifted blu-ray is to die for! I sit 10ft from a 13ft wide screen and I love not being able to see any pixels. I can see how one might prefer the Epson for 2D, though. Conan's film vs 100" Plasma/LCD comparison is apt. I'm very much a film guy, and the E-shift makes it more cinematic than ever. I'll probably watch animation on the Epson though for some extra "pop"!


Epson doesn't just "probably" spank the JVC in 3D and sports. It decisively spanks it by a large margin! I think it easily takes the TV crown as well.


Totally agree!


And for those who don't think they care about 3D, once you get the 5010 you might start to care. A friend of mine who initially had zero interest in 3D bought the 5010 several weeks ago after seeing mine. He also saw my RS55/X70 and could have afforded one. But he chose the 5010. Now he has a stack of blu-ray 3D's and is playing Uncharted 3 in 3D (no complaints of lag)! And he's looking at getting a bigger screen. So often people don't really know what they want until they experience it first hand.

Steve Jobs: "A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

I think people are putting words in my mouth, and reading into what I was saying a bit too much.

The various glasses have different tints other than the Monster vs Epson because those glasses appear to be the same glasses. That said I would asume that each projector manufacurer sets the3D mode to compensate for the glassesthey sell. The Epson 3D mode viewed without the glasses is very red. The Epson glasses are tinted so that the red tint viewed through the glasses is nearly gone. But the projector in 3D needs a small calibration adjustment to completely neutralize the tint.

As far as mesasuring the brightness in 3D, it needs to be measured through the glasses and it can indeed be so measured.

I do indeed think the JVC is the champ in making 2D films look like film through a film projector viewed in a commercial except for one factor. The blacks are darker with the JVCs and the on/off contrast higher than that in a film theater.

Some prefer films in their home theaters to look more like video. That's a personal choice.

Which projector in this class is best? That question can't be answered in the absolute. It depends and there are lots of depends. Those depends are what you watch, what your set up is, your viewing environment, and how you weigh the various elements of projector quality. And that list isn't comprehensive. For example, how loud a projector is and how much noise bothers you. And thhat also depends on your hearing. So much also depends on your eyes. Do you see rainbows? How good is your peripheral vision? On and on and on.

So many want to go with their perception of what everybody is doing. The old safety in numbers. Everybody is buying this over that. Really? Not from where I sit.

I remeber once eating i the dining room at the Saratoga harness track dining room. I ask the waiter how the lamb was. He never tasted it and that is an indication of the overall quality of a dining establishment. His answer was that nobody complained about the lamb. Quite an endorsement to help me make my choice.

Forums provide a tremendous avenue for people to give great emphasis to their complaints particularly when they eliminated a choice because of it and chose something else. And most want you to do so as well.

So many then I say I won't buy it because of the complaint never knowing whether the complaint is something that would bother them or even be significant to their viewing priorities. The I really don't know but He does.

The problem is one can eliminate everything in a price class based on someone's complaint. Every single projector has weaknesses giving rise to complaints. How could they (the manufacturer)? What were they thinking? Just food for thought.

I bought the JVC because I trusted Mike that the other LCOS's I owned in the past we're probably just bunk units, and I did see a couple RS-40's that I knew were sharper than the RS-20 I saw, so I took the JVC gamble and it paid off.

For people questioning my ability on how to compare projectors, I've gone through a lot of trouble of finding the right content to compare and I've been comparing projectors for 5 years as a hobby, I used LOTR because it's what he had, and I didn't have TREE OF LIFE on me, Tree of Life is an amazing Bluray to use as a comparison for film-like aspects. My standard comparison includes about 20 Blurays and other stuff. Everything from the Universe series, Planet Earth, Tree of Life, a Bluray Sports of Michael Jordan (forgot name of it), and about 10 other titles. We just didn't have time to do the full comparison. I will get more time later.

If someone were to ask me what should they buy, the 5010 or the 8700ub, that's a no-brainer, the 5010 every time for the extra bucks if they can afford it, just don't expect worlds of 2D differences, it's incremental (but it's at least more of a change from the 8700ub to the 5010 than say compared to the 8500ub to the 8700ub).

In Dynamic 2D and 3D mode, the fan is loud (normal mode). In contrast, Eco mode is near silent. Strangely, it is much louder in upside-down ceiling mode vs upright table-top mode, at least 5dB difference.
It's bothersome if you're watching stuff without sound or at low volume, but not that noticeable during normal viewing. I might take Mark's advice and build a hush box for it!