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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 17

post #481 of 3271
Coderguy. I wasn't thinking of you or anybody else here nor was I aiming at anyone. I certainly respect your decision. The JVC RS40 is a very good machine and anyone who choses it after careful consideration gets a hearty CONGRATULATIONS for me, no matter where they purchased it. No big THANK YOU however unless you purchased it from AV Science Sales.
post #482 of 3271
I purchased it from AVS Sales, so no worries...

No problem, I knew it wasn't directed at me, I was just saying these guys are thinking I'm anti-Epson or something now because I didn't think the 5010 was as good as the JVC for movies. I guess I got excited a little because the 5010 was the first projector I saw that really interested me out of the new batch.

I didn't even comment when I saw the 3010 several months ago, I didn't want to make anyone mad...
post #483 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

In Dynamic 2D and 3D mode, the fan is loud (normal mode). In contrast, Eco mode is near silent. Strangely, it is much louder in upside-down ceiling mode vs upright table-top mode, at least 5dB difference.
It's bothersome if you're watching stuff without sound or at low volume, but not that noticeable during normal viewing. I might take Mark's advice and build a hush box for it!

That would be great. Please post how you built it, if you end up doing it.

I think Eco mode is very quiet, but I do have it ceiling mounted and normal mode is fairly loud. I tend to use normal for 3D only and while annoying, I get used to it pretty quickly.

Coderguy, I sincerely apologize for saying that you are trying to justify your purchase. I hope you can forgive me.
post #484 of 3271
No worries man, people have said much much harsher to me and I forgave them on a dime. I always incite emotion in these forums, I try to tone it down but it comes out too strong sometimes...
post #485 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by fugueness View Post

Epson doesn't just "probably" spank the JVC in 3D and sports. It decisively spanks it by a large margin! I think it easily takes the TV crown as well.

Try a DLP for Sports and 3D?

Just kidding, but I'm going to keep reiterating that a two projector setup is better, the Epson is my favorite projector for animated films with dark scenes BTW, it has the best balance of bright POP and dark POP. See I can find something every projector wins at.
post #486 of 3271
Coderguy. I know you purchased it from us and I THANK YOU. I was just generalizing. Mike G has an RS45 too and he loves it.
post #487 of 3271
Yes, I feel like the RS-45 is getting dumped on in here because of the 3D, I guess that's why I keep defending it or being repetitive...
Seems like not many people with the JVC are active posters, I'm one of the few (me and Joesyah).
Joesyah came from an Infocus sp8602, and even he was able to sacrifice some DLP love for the JVC.
post #488 of 3271
Imagine my dismay with my beloved DLP being trampled underfoot here. Watching the playoffs on my 3LCD Epson 8350 looks good but not the best. Not smooth as I like.
post #489 of 3271
Which DLP is that?
post #490 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Which DLP is that?

The whole DLP tech itself. I am watching my Epson and can watch my Sammy DLP 61" TV same time. No comparison. Seems the BenQ is becoming all but forgotten here and I was interested in that unit. I have no doubts the 5010 is a good unit, it is still a 3LCD unit. I thought I saw a apples to oranges comparo earlier but was too busy watching the game. Seems someone said something along the lines the W6K was not in the same league as these units which does not bode well for the W7k which is essentially the same unit with more lumens and 3d. It appears whoever posted that deleted it before I could quote it.
post #491 of 3271
I would love to see the Benq w6000 and w7000 side-by-side to learn the mystery, did Benq really make the w7000 have worse blacks, who knows... Maybe Art will get another w6000. I doubt Benq will send him one though, I tried to get a w6000 from Benq once and they offered me an sp890 instead (this was almost a year ago). Benq has no reviewer units of these older projectors left to send out, and they aren't planning on reviving any either. They also offered me a w1200 but I'm not setup yet.

And just to reitterate, Zombie's is one of the best comparisons I've seen of the projectors, but don't sell JMALTO short either, his was also done very well.
post #492 of 3271
Zombie10k,

Even though the Epson sounds great with 3D brightness and other factors do you find it distracting to NOT have FI in 3D compared to the Sony HW30?

Zombie and others,

Do you find that not having the DI turned on in 3D to wash the image out in darker scenes? I know many love DLP and the pop that it gives but for me regardless of how nice many scenes are when I see a darker image with so-so black levels it ruins the experience for me. That's probably my biggest pet peave with any display.

I really wish I had a dealer close to me to demo. I wasn't that excited about 3D but now that I have watched several movies and since 3D doesn't give me a headache I'm starting to find myself liking it more and more with the exception of ghosting and brightness levels in 3D. No complaints from me on the RS45 in 2D but the 3D could be better.

I really wish I could demo it in person.
post #493 of 3271
You can probably see one in person, but it might require a plane ticket.
post #494 of 3271
Thread Starter 
I'm not ready to post my data on the RS55 yet, but after owning the 40, 50 and demo'ing the 45 for several days, when I think of 'film-like', only the RS55/X70 comes to mind now.. specifically for the e-shift.

If you have a small screen and sit 1.5-2.0 SW away, it may not be immediately obvious.. but if you sit 1.25 SW from a 142" screen, it's quite obvious and quickly separates the 45 vs 55. It's the closest thing I've seen to a CRT in regard to the analog look and feel. It doesn't become artificially sharper, there is a clear perception of increased contrast and definition to the image.

It's one of those things I leave on all the time, because when I turn it off, the image starts to look like every other projector and relatively flat. The E-shift adds a sense of dimension to the image that is hard to describe, but repeated by a number of the 55/70 owners who also sense the same increase in IQ. It actually appears to be a higher resolution presentation of the original image that is quite convincing.

you do need a top quality source to take advantage of it, but it makes a noticeable difference on quality BD transfers like the Matrix, Underworld, Blade (OAR version), etc. It's very cool tech for those of us with larger screens.

back to the Epson, it's time to fire up Chromapure and get this thing calibrated tonight.
post #495 of 3271
I got the Epson 6010 and the 3d is pretty good I do not see any ghosting , I do wish the Fi would work in 3D though, I would of liked to see how FI helps 3d, in 2d I do not use it because to me I do not like the effect

With regards to the w7000 I thought the dlp would be the best in 3d, zombie10k are you saying the 6010 is better? The benq was actually my 2nd choice before but it wouldn't work for me because of lens throw, my first choice was actually the jvc but I ended up changing my mind on it because I was unsure if it was going to be plagued by bulb issues and jvc warranty/customer service was unknown to me. I am glad I got the Epson and the more I read the more I feel I made a good choice but either way I am sure I would of been happy with any of the units , they sure have come down in price and heck in 2 to 3 years we will all be upgrading them anyways.
post #496 of 3271
Zombie, you should try Tree of Life if you want to see a true reference level transfer onto a Bluray of 35mm film, those movies you named are pretty good, but Tree of Life is 100% natural lighting, it won tons of awards for the camera work. The movie itself is nothing special, but it's more sophisticated camera work than almost every other movie.

..."Those who sit behind a camera know there are three types of vector shots; motion, index and graphic. TREE OF LIFE offers the best examples of motion and graphic vectors I have seen in quite some time in film. Credit goes to Cinematographer Emmanuel Lubezki for presenting an uninteresting tale in a visually stunning manner. His work here could easily be utilized in a class room for perspective cameramen. "....
post #497 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Zombie10k,

Even though the Epson sounds great with 3D brightness and other factors do you find it distracting to NOT have FI in 3D compared to the Sony HW30?

Zombie and others,

Do you find that not having the DI turned on in 3D to wash the image out in darker scenes? I know many love DLP and the pop that it gives but for me regardless of how nice many scenes are when I see a darker image with so-so black levels it ruins the experience for me. That's probably my biggest pet peave with any display.

I really wish I had a dealer close to me to demo. I wasn't that excited about 3D but now that I have watched several movies and since 3D doesn't give me a headache I'm starting to find myself liking it more and more with the exception of ghosting and brightness levels in 3D. No complaints from me on the RS45 in 2D but the 3D could be better.

I really wish I could demo it in person.

It would be nice if the 5010 has the FI in 3D as I've been a bit spoiled by it on the HW30 and Sony's FI is top shelf compared to some of the others. I'll watch more 3D and include this info in the first page update comparing the 3D modes from each model.

regarding the lack of DI in 3D - There are some times I wish the HW30 had it, but I am not getting that from the 5010. it's hard to believe the contrast was only measured at 5k:1 without the iris, because it feels a lot more like the JVC's contrast in 3D mode, but without the flicker or ghosting.

The W7000's contrast in 3D was more noticeable, especially watching a dark concert like Peter Gabriel's 3D concert in London. The 5010 quickly overshadows the W7000 with this particular viewing.
post #498 of 3271
The contrast is actually right at 7000:1, don't ask how I know :P
post #499 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdog_2005 View Post

I got the Epson 6010 and the 3d is pretty good I do not see any ghosting , I do wish the Fi would work in 3D though, I would of liked to see how FI helps 3d, in 2d I do not use it because to me I do not like the effect

With regards to the w7000 I thought the dlp would be the best in 3d, zombie10k are you saying the 6010 is better? The benq was actually my 2nd choice before but it wouldn't work for me because of lens throw, my first choice was actually the jvc but I ended up changing my mind on it because I was unsure if it was going to be plagued by bulb issues and jvc warranty/customer service was unknown to me. I am glad I got the Epson and the more I read the more I feel I made a good choice but either way I am sure I would of been happy with any of the units , they sure have come down in price and heck in 2 to 3 years we will all be upgrading them anyways.

I'd have to pick which features are most important when trying to decide which one is better.

The W7000's 3D was exceptional in bright scenes and mixed contrast scenes, but looked a little flat with darker scenes. The complete lack of ghosting and flicker combined with the FI in 3D was easy on the eyes and I could have watched 3D for hours without fatigue. Plus it's going to eat the LCOS/LCD's for lunch once we get into SBS and 3D console gaming since it's not going to ghost in these modes.

The 5010's 3D was surprising, I didn't expect it to be this good with the factory supplied glasses. I don't see the same level of flicker as I do with the JVC's and the brightness and perceived contrast in 3D is a little intoxicating. If only they could turn on the FI i n 3D, it could be one of the highest ranking 3D BD presentations i've seen yet.
post #500 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You can probably see one in person, but it might require a plane ticket.

:P

Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

It would be nice if the 5010 has the FI in 3D as I've been a bit spoiled by it on the HW30 and Sony's FI is top shelf compared to some of the others. I'll watch more 3D and include this info in the first page update comparing the 3D modes from each model.

regarding the lack of DI in 3D - There are some times I wish the HW30 had it, but I am not getting that from the 5010. it's hard to believe the contrast was only measured at 5k:1 without the iris, because it feels a lot more like the JVC's contrast in 3D mode, but without the flicker or ghosting.

The W7000's contrast in 3D was more noticeable, especially watching a dark concert like Peter Gabriel's 3D concert in London. The 5010 quickly overshadows the W7000 with this particular viewing.

Thanks for the info and I'm looking forward to your take. If you can please comment on how black level compares on the 5010 to the RS45 in 2D with the DI on (the best you can from memory). Also please comment on how well the CFI works compared to the CMD on the JVC with camera pans.

I know we can't talk pricing here on AVS but to make things simple are the Epsons the same price everywhere or are these units discounted at all?
post #501 of 3271
I can tell you CFI is better on the Epson, I bet Zombie will agree, but it's not light years ahead, I don't like either one for movies.

CFI = Sony > Panny > Epson > JVC > ?

I watched CFI on the JVC only 30 minutes after seeing it on the Epson. That is my take, I've seen it on all of them except the Sony.
post #502 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I'd have to pick which features are most important when trying to decide which one is better.

The W7000's 3D was exceptional in bright scenes and mixed contrast scenes, but looked a little flat with darker scenes. The complete lack of ghosting and flicker combined with the FI in 3D was easy on the eyes and I could have watched 3D for hours without fatigue. Plus it's going to eat the LCOS/LCD's for lunch once we get into SBS and 3D console gaming since it's not going to ghost in these modes.

The 5010's 3D was surprising, I didn't expect it to be this good with the factory supplied glasses. I don't see the same level of flicker as I do with the JVC's and the brightness and perceived contrast in 3D is a little intoxicating. If only they could turn on the FI i n 3D, it could be one of the highest ranking 3D BD presentations i've seen yet.

I've been waiting for your 5010 review -- the second or is it third opinion before I commit. Your comments about the black level in 3D and lack of ghosting should make this a pretty safe purchase.
post #503 of 3271
Thread Starter 
After 10 samples, it looks like the lag on the 5010 is ~ 70-80 ms. I can't find any of the modes that reduces this time, the FI is turned off for the tests.

post #504 of 3271
Erased, I'll let Zombie weigh in now, too late you missed my comments :P
post #505 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Epson 5010 precalibration:

cinema mode - 844 lumens

living room mode - 1,738 lumens.. wow. Sitting at eye level with the 5010 on the 2.8 HP, we are looking at ~5,000 lumens. No wonder I was able to watch HDTV today with an entire room full of lights turned on.
post #506 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Zombie10k,

Even though the Epson sounds great with 3D brightness and other factors do you find it distracting to NOT have FI in 3D compared to the Sony HW30?

Zombie and others,

Do you find that not having the DI turned on in 3D to wash the image out in darker scenes? I know many love DLP and the pop that it gives but for me regardless of how nice many scenes are when I see a darker image with so-so black levels it ruins the experience for me. That's probably my biggest pet peave with any display.

I really wish I had a dealer close to me to demo. I wasn't that excited about 3D but now that I have watched several movies and since 3D doesn't give me a headache I'm starting to find myself liking it more and more with the exception of ghosting and brightness levels in 3D. No complaints from me on the RS45 in 2D but the 3D could be better.

I really wish I could demo it in person.

Where are you located?
post #507 of 3271
Zombie can attest that I am a fairly astute evaluator of projectors and can nail things about projectors after only a short observation period. That said, I am not bothered by rainbows from DLP. judder, motion blur, and most ghosting.

I thought the ghosting on this years JVCs was quite different than last years which bothered me. This year I really enjoyed the 3D on the JVCs but clearly the screen shots of the torture tests do show more ghosting that some of the LCD competition.

Zombie will attest that I nailed the benefits of theJVC 4K e shift from my Cedia observations when some others refused to acknowledge that the picture was improved or could be improved by the e shift when viewing from normal viewing distances.

I have given the why it does considerable thought given that the image is less sharp due the scaling and pixel overlap BUT looks mopre sharp to the eye at normal distances. My thesis is that the pixel overlap results in additional shades of contrast between the original pixels. Let's suppose that two adjacent pixels have a contrast differential of one. The pixel overlap creates additional pixels comprised of the overlaps. I think the scaling algs used by JVC for its 4K e shift actually present contrasts between the two. So your eyes see shades not there before, sort of a pixel ramp between the two. I am simplifying because there are multiple opverlaps in the creation of 4 million plus pixels when only 4 million plus are actually being flashed. MTF, a measure of sharpness, is how much contrast can be resolved. Since more contrast steps are being flashed and casn be seen, the MTF is actually increased and presents as greater sharpness to the eyes while by line pair standards the image may be less sharp. I am just postulating, I am no expert here but the net result is a more sharp, better image to ones eyes. The spaces that would otherwise be betwen 1080p pixels are now completely filled in, obscuring of course the 1080p pixel grid flashed nby the two different 1080p frames being flashed. Thus, the fact that the lens can't resolve a grid in 4K shift doesn't mean a thing, there are no longer spaces between the pixels to observe as a grid due to the overlap. The image is more solid because of the fill in of the spaces where there was no fill before, and is easier on the eyes. The lens can resolve the real pixels and the pixels created by the overlap. It can resolve the 8 million plus so the lens is a fine one in that regard and is doing its job with respect to the higher resolution being created. Just my thoughts and of course my explanation as to perceived increased sharpness may be dead wrong.
post #508 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Where are you located?

Cincinnati, OH
post #509 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I can tell you CFI is better on the Epson, I bet Zombie will agree, but it's not light years ahead, I don't like either one for movies.

CFI = Sony > Panny > Epson > JVC > ?

I watched CFI on the JVC only 30 minutes after seeing it on the Epson. That is my take, I've seen it on all of them except the Sony.

Thanks coderguy. I'm not opposed to FI in movies and while CMD could be better it's big step up in motion over my RS2 clone so even with the CMD as is I'm happy. My biggest concern for the Epson would be 2D movie quality specifically for black levels and calibrated brightness in low lamp mode. I'm using the RS45 in normal lamp mode with the aperture at -15 and the picture is nice and bright on my 119" Dalite 2.4 HP screen with great black levels. I'm very satisfied with the 2D picture but a much brighter pic and far less ghosting in 3D would be very nice. I also wonder if the DI noise on the Epson would be distracting also. My friend has a 1080UB and I've seen several movies on his and never noticed it but that's not quite the same as having one in your own home.
post #510 of 3271
IME, the Epson's all have different noise levels on the IRIS, one is not the same as the next, although I haven't found one to the next as different as some have in the forums.

Honestly, I guess it depends where you mount the projector. The 5010 IRIS was more of a less bothersome rumble to me than my 8500ub's grinding noise, but who knows it could have been the acoustics of the room. I don't think it is a big deal to be honest, you get used to it and most of the time tune it out.

Black level comparison is tough on these projectors, the JVC is going to look a lot different if you A/B then if you wait one day and watch it the next day, so in a sense it's less likely to affect you in normal viewing I suppose, but if you're really craving blacks, then I don't know, an individual thing.

I used to not care about black levels, but now that I have the JVC, I can sort of see the hype, I just would like it even darker now :P
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