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JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout - Page 29

post #841 of 3271
After seeing the Epson side by side 3D results, I'm sorely tempted to give AVS a call and order a 5010. It's hard to imagine that I'd be willing to give up the contrast of the RS40/45 for 2D, but I'll never say never until I see it for myself.
post #842 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

woodchuck22 - every pair of glasses I have is going to fail those on/off tests. there is a wide variance when you move the glasses around.

I wouldn't get too caught up in the tests, it's easy to take them out of context vs. what your eyes see watching real content. I wish we could distribute a disk with still 3D shots of 20-30 different 3D BD's.

Exactly. These are worst case tests and completely unrepresentative of what you'll typically see in 3D movies. That's one of the reasons I hesitated to post the iso. If you took the left or right eye view of my garden shots and combined them with a solid black frame for the other eye, you'd see significant ghosting there as well, while most displays seem to show little if any ghosting with the normal 3D image.
post #843 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Joseph - I am keeping one of the JVC's this year because they look great with my dark sci fi. I was surprised to see how well the 5010 does, but the JVC image is more refined with a darker black floor. I am a little disappointed to see the bright corners, my RS50 was absolutely perfect in comparison and the 5010 black is very solid as well.

I can use the Sony like a TV and don't think about the lamp. it's so cheap and have lost less than ~5% in 150 hours, I have some faith these lamps will perform well for a while. I don't know how the 5010 lamp will hold up in comparison, they are too new to tell.

since each projector has distinct and measurable pros/cons, I don't see the point in folks try to declare one better than the other. I know this isn't practical for the majority of home setups, but I just pick the projector depending on what I feel like watching.
post #844 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by abs View Post

thanks for the reply. the room is about 33ft in length and the pj will be mounted in the centre of the room. the screen is a 9ft wide screen and the room is the main lounge i.e. not a batcave but al viewing will be in the dark without any lighting on. any views on the 95 compared to the 30 and epson?

The 95es is really good, but they did have to close the light path a bit to increase the contrast which resulted in less lumens. The Epson 5010 or Sony hw30 is a better fit in your room I think.
post #845 of 3271
zombie,
I was pretty happy with the HW30 results. What I wasn't happy with was the glasses.
I wouldn't have expected them to be non-uniform in their darkness. If the glasses could be dark in the center, then why can't they be dark at the edges ?? If the glasses had been as dark at the edges at they were in the center, they would have passed pretty much every test on the disk.
post #846 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodchuck22 View Post

zombie,
I was pretty happy with the HW30 results. What I wasn't happy with was the glasses.
I wouldn't have expected them to be non-uniform in their darkness. If the glasses could be dark in the center, then why can't they be dark at the edges ?? If the glasses had been as dark at the edges at they were in the center, they would have passed pretty much every test on the disk.

The on/off test is a little shocking to see. I've only tried the Sony glasses, Sony kids glasses, MV3D's and the Epson glasses, but it's all the same for the most part.
post #847 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Joseph - I am keeping one of the JVC's this year because they look great with my dark sci fi. I was surprised to see how well the 5010 does, but the JVC image is more refined with a darker black floor. I am a little disappointed to see the bright corners, my RS50 was absolutely perfect in comparison and the 5010 black is very solid as well.

I can use the Sony like a TV and don't think about the lamp. it's so cheap and have lost less than ~5% in 150 hours, I have some faith these lamps will perform well for a while. I don't know how the 5010 lamp will hold up in comparison, they are too new to tell.

since each projector has distinct and measurable pros/cons, I don't see the point in folks try to declare one better than the other. I know this isn't practical for the majority of home setups, but I just pick the projector depending on what I feel like watching.

My RS40 had visibly bright corners, too, just like the RS45. I never considered it a problem, since in any reasonable scenario, it took my eyes a few seconds to adjust from that "total blackout" sense I had when it faded to black.

I don't want to go with a dual projector setup, but I might. I could run the RS45 for 2D and the Epson for 3D pretty easily in my small-ish home theater room - by mounting the Epson just above the RS40. That's worth thinking about.
post #848 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I read Ron's blog and it was great. I suggested after seeing one of his posts a few weeks ago that he take a look at the potential difference in dark on light vs light on dark ghosting. He measured the difference, and it's profound for the JVC - 17%. (I never saw this second article before your post, Deja Vu. I made my suggestion after reading the first article. I don't want people thinking I lifted Ron's ideas. I've been talking about this difference for quite some time.)

Since I do have DirecTV service, it was nice to see Ron's feedback for using the DTV SbS 3D feed for both the JVC and Epson. I'd also like to hear people's opinion about the HW30 with this feed. Anyone?

On another point, a key factor between the 5010 vs hw30 which caused me to order the former is concerning the lens tele range. In my current HT setting I need 21.5ft throw, but in the future HT room only 11.5ft throw.
The hw30 has much less range than the 5010. For example a 8ft wide (110" diag 16:9) is limited to only 17ft back and the lumen brightness is not great for 3D at the max throw dist. It empahsis's the limitations of where the hw30 can be placed. Other than that, I was really leaning to the hw30.
post #849 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I don't want to go with a dual projector setup, but I might. I could run the RS45 for 2D and the Epson for 3D pretty easily in my small-ish home theater room - by mounting the Epson just above the RS40. That's worth thinking about.

I am turning my living room into a semi-bat cave now so I can have two separate theater rooms because it really didn't all fit in one room. Almost definitely my next purchase will be another DLP, maybe the Optoma hd8300 if I can find one in the refurb or used market in the next 6-10 months. I think hd8300 might be really good and overlooked, but I don't know for sure. The black levels are said to be better than the Panny 7000, and that is pretty good for a DLP. I am guessing it is pretty expensive though, but maybe I can find a deal or maybe another DLP will come out this year that catches my interest.
post #850 of 3271
Tom and I our measuring and calibrating the MenQ W7000 now. Before you ask it is firmware version 1.0 and no I don't know when BenQ will release an updated firmware of how newer firmware will be loaded, user in the field or by a service center.
post #851 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Joseph - I am keeping one of the JVC's this year because they look great with my dark sci fi. I was surprised to see how well the 5010 does, but the JVC image is more refined with a darker black floor. I am a little disappointed to see the bright corners, my RS50 was absolutely perfect in comparison and the 5010 black is very solid as well.

I can use the Sony like a TV and don't think about the lamp. it's so cheap and have lost less than ~5% in 150 hours, I have some faith these lamps will perform well for a while. I don't know how the 5010 lamp will hold up in comparison, they are too new to tell.

since each projector has distinct and measurable pros/cons, I don't see the point in folks try to declare one better than the other. I know this isn't practical for the majority of home setups, but I just pick the projector depending on what I feel like watching.

So what projector do you watch with movie that contains dark scenes and bright scenes? Or better put, do you prefer the JVC over the Epson & Sony if lamp life/failure was a non issue.

My biggest hangup with the Epson is the contrast loss. Everyone's opinion is different and I'm not sure what the real difference is. Regardless of what I have/get, if the finances agree I will be replacing it at the end of the year with a new model and my guess is with the same usage the JVC will be worth more. No 2D complaints about the JVCs but ghosting is the big offended. The Sony is a great overall projector but is lacking in contrast comparatively and no DI in 3D is a downer but not a deal breaker. The Epson's 3D sounds very good (especially given the dynamic mode) but the question remains how much contrast is lost to this one compared to the JVC and if only FI worked in 3D on this model.
post #852 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

There is a great hope in that manufactures are put on notice that front projectors quality standards have been raised by consumers (they must improve to survive the picture clarity of large front panels). It is to AVS science credit for letting Jason/Zombie publish objective, astute observations and allowing direct competitive comparisons. Further there have been notable, significant, accurate contributions from members here and from authors around the world. It is a first, remarkable level of achievement in that consensus was reached from throughout around the world. The repulsive 3D ghosting served as catalyst, with motion clarity coming in a strong second.
Congratulations go to everybody!

We welcome Consumer Reports who in also reporting on ghosting and motion clarity issues:
http://news.consumerreports.org/elec...d-display.html
They are overdue for a front projector ratings update!
post #853 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

Which showrooms did you see these projectors?

I've been trying to find them all around the Puget Sound area and can't seem to find any that has these 3 setup in a showroom.

JVC X30: Magnolia Bellevue

Epson 6010: Desco Olympia (2D and 3D) and via appt with Madrona Digital Bellevue who will meet you at their distributor nearby (2D only)

Sony HW30: Best Buy/Magnolia Tacoma (2D only), Best Buy/Magnolia Lynnwood (2D and 3D)

BenQ W7000: good luck! I'm headed down to So Cal next weekend and not even finding anywhere there to see it let alone in Seattle/Tacoma, this is using dealer locator on BenQ's website

BTW my HP screen was many years ago and was the 2.8 gain version (which is reported to be higher gain than that) so could be very different ball game from people with newer 2.4 gain HP. The limited viewing cone and having to place projector at eye level also very inconvenient and deal killers to me. I like 1.3/1.4 gain screens personally.
post #854 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

So what projector do you watch with movie that contains dark scenes and bright scenes? Or better put, do you prefer the JVC over the Epson & Sony if lamp life/failure was a non issue.

My biggest hangup with the Epson is the contrast loss. Everyone's opinion is different and I'm not sure what the real difference is. Regardless of what I have/get, if the finances agree I will be replacing it at the end of the year with a new model and my guess is with the same usage the JVC will be worth more. No 2D complaints about the JVCs but ghosting is the big offended. The Sony is a great overall projector but is lacking in contrast comparatively and no DI in 3D is a downer but not a deal breaker. The Epson's 3D sounds very good (especially given the dynamic mode) but the question remains how much contrast is lost to this one compared to the JVC and if only FI worked in 3D on this model.

I don't think there's any argument that the JVC is going to perform better than the Epson in 2D Cinema mode, watching quality BD content. I watched my favorite scenes from Underworld, Matrix & Blade several times on the various projectors, and I would grab the JVC first for these movies. I'll give the 5010 some credit though, because it looks very nice as well considering all it's other benefits.

it's a harder decision when trying to pick 1 particular projector. I think the benefits and drawbacks are pretty well defined at this point, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out the priorities and pick the model that fits the need.
post #855 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post


BTW my HP screen was many years ago and was the 2.8 gain version (which is reported to be higher gain than that) so could be very different ball game from people with newer 2.4 gain HP. The limited viewing cone and having to place projector at eye level also very inconvenient and deal killers to me. I like 1.3/1.4 gain screens personally.

after seeing the 2.4 and 2.8 side by side, I was surprised to see how well the 2.4 does with with the wider viewing cone. I did a low ceiling mount on a 2.4 recently and it looks nice, probably getting ~1.7 where it's located and you can definitely still see the gain vs a 1.0 screen. No visible texture on the screen is nice too.

from what you've seen so far, which of the projectors are you most interested in?
post #856 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Tom and I our measuring and calibrating the MenQ W7000 now. Before you ask it is firmware version 1.0 and no I don't know when BenQ will release an updated firmware of how newer firmware will be loaded, user in the field or by a service center.

Done yet... Lol.

What contrast ratios are you getting?

And lumen outputs?
post #857 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

My HP doesn't hot spot, either. I've never seen brightness or color uniformity problems in anything I've ever watched on the HP. It's as close to a "transparent" screen as I've ever seen - that is, it disappears and I just see the image.

I read Ron's blog and it was great. I suggested after seeing one of his posts a few weeks ago that he take a look at the potential difference in dark on light vs light on dark ghosting. He measured the difference, and it's profound for the JVC - 17%. (I never saw this second article before your post, Deja Vu. I made my suggestion after reading the first article. I don't want people thinking I lifted Ron's ideas. I've been talking about this difference for quite some time.)

Joseph -- You and a few others here are doing us all a great service. Keep up the good work and the fair and unbiased comments.
post #858 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

JVC X30: Magnolia Bellevue

Epson 6010: Desco Olympia (2D and 3D) and via appt with Madrona Digital Bellevue who will meet you at their distributor nearby (2D only)

Sony HW30: Best Buy/Magnolia Tacoma (2D only), Best Buy/Magnolia Lynnwood (2D and 3D)

BenQ W7000: good luck! I'm headed down to So Cal next weekend and not even finding anywhere there to see it let alone in Seattle/Tacoma, this is using dealer locator on BenQ's website

BTW my HP screen was many years ago and was the 2.8 gain version (which is reported to be higher gain than that) so could be very different ball game from people with newer 2.4 gain HP. The limited viewing cone and having to place projector at eye level also very inconvenient and deal killers to me. I like 1.3/1.4 gain screens personally.

Thanks for the locations/references. Will check out the Sony in Lynnwood.
If your interested, the University district Magnolia HiFi has the X70 in a showroom.

There's also an Xtreme Theater north of Lynnwood on 99 that has some projectors but not sure what they have since I haven't been there in a few months.
post #859 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

JVC X30: Magnolia Bellevue

Epson 6010: Desco Olympia (2D and 3D) and via appt with Madrona Digital Bellevue who will meet you at their distributor nearby (2D only)

Sony HW30: Best Buy/Magnolia Tacoma (2D only), Best Buy/Magnolia Lynnwood (2D and 3D)

BenQ W7000: good luck! I'm headed down to So Cal next weekend and not even finding anywhere there to see it let alone in Seattle/Tacoma, this is using dealer locator on BenQ's website

BTW my HP screen was many years ago and was the 2.8 gain version (which is reported to be higher gain than that) so could be very different ball game from people with newer 2.4 gain HP. The limited viewing cone and having to place projector at eye level also very inconvenient and deal killers to me. I like 1.3/1.4 gain screens personally.

My High Power screen that I am currently running with my Marantz is the older 2.8 gain version. Works very well with a low lumen projector like the Marantz. I have never seen any hot spotting with it. I have also used the HP with a Viewsonic Pro8100 and with a Planar PD7130. Never did see any hot spotting.
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post #860 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

after seeing the 2.4 and 2.8 side by side, I was surprised to see how well the 2.4 does with with the wider viewing cone. I did a low ceiling mount on a 2.4 recently and it looks nice, probably getting ~1.7 where it's located and you can definitely still see the gain vs a 1.0 screen. No visible texture on the screen is nice too.

from what you've seen so far, which of the projectors are you most interested in?

JVC X30. Never saw any ghosting on scenes I watched from Monsters vs Aliens, Ultimate Wave Tahiti and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs but did see some flickering here and there. I would rarely watch 3D, more just for some eye candy here and there and I think I can live with the X30's 3D for that purpose to get the best 2D performance among these IMO. My biggest concern with X30 is premature lamp dimming, the one I saw only had 87 hours on it.
post #861 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Sony has the higher pixel fill, if you sit very close to the screen I might lean you towards the Sony. The Sony has less gaming lag if you play games and care about lag (FPS gamers).

Have you seen an Epson LCD?

The Epson is edgier with more brightness in dynamic modes, much brighter 3D, but has no FI in 3D. The Epson has the darker blacks in some scenes from its more aggressive IRIS, but the Sony's IRIS is smoother looking.

The Epson should be a little sharper especially if you get one with good convergence, but a Sony with good convergence should be sharp enough as well.

If I were mainly watching movies and was sitting close or if I preferred the film look of LCOS, I would take the Sony.

If 3D brightness is your main concern and you have any ambient light issues in the room, definitely take the Epson.

I was considering the Epson for 3D only but since I sit at 1x screen width it sounds like it will be a no go. My current JVC looks just fine at my close distance.

Tom
post #862 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Tom, I'm @ 1.25 from the 142" and don't see any issue with pixel structure or SDE at this distance. I'll have to get a little closer to see if that changes.
post #863 of 3271
Tom and had a ball with the BenQ testing. The only small problem we faced in calibrating it for 2D Cinema and 3D was that the saturation control in the CMS does not have as many steps as one would like. One click changes it by about 3%, so if you were say at 98% saturation, one click would take you to 101% saturation, thus not allowing 100% to be nailed. Really not much of an error.

The unit is considerably louder in normal lamp mode than it is in economy mode but for my screen, 110" D 1.78, 1.3 gain, economy mode was really bright. The DI appears to be a 3x multiplier. My Samsung had a much higher native contrast because of its DC4 chip its its multiplier for DI was about 2. It will be interesting to see if the BenQ on off goes up with the coming software version. It is really sharp. Look for Tom's calibration report on his review website.
post #864 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

My HP doesn't hot spot! I've used a HP screen on and off now for 10 years - floor mounted projectors, ceiling mounted and now shelf mounted. I've seen hot spotting on other higher gain screens and it isn't pretty. The HP has made a believer out of me that higher gain screens can work and work extremely well. I've tried 4 other screen materials and have always come back. Now with 3D making inroads I personally feel this screen is a no-brainer. With the Epson projectors we might actually have bright 3D images. Bring it on!

Here's a great article by Ron on ghosting -- JVC vs. Epson.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/proj....html#more-424

Thanks for posting this and yes that's a great read and clears up a bit what is going on with the JVCs. And like you I'm sold on the HP screen and until projectors can provide brightness on their own without dimming there's nothing like the HP screens 2.8 or 2.4!!!
post #865 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

Tom and had a ball with the NenQ testing. The only small problem we faced in calibrating it for 2D Cinema and 3D was that the saturation control in the CMS does not have as many steps as one would like. One click changes it by about 3%, so if you were say at 98% saturation, one click would take you to 101% saturation, thus not allowing 100% to be nailed. Really not much of an error.

The unit is considerably louded in normal lamp mode than it is in economy mode but for my screen, 110" D 1.78, 1.3 gain, economy mode was really bright. The DI appears to be a 3x multiplier. My Samsung had a much higher native contrast because of its DC4 chip its its multiplier for DI was about 2. It will bed interesting to see if the BenQ on off goes up with the coming software version. It is really sharp. Look for Tom's calibration report on his review website.

Wow you must have been tired...

Is the review going to be on chroma pure or a different site.

If a different site can you provide the link.
post #866 of 3271
Zombie -- if possible could you please check out the Harry Potter movie Deathly Hallows Part 2 3D with the Epson. Others have complained about ghosting in this movie. I just watched it with the cheap 720p 3D Acer (with Nvidia glasses) and it looked really, really good (no ghosting, good shadow detail etc.)! If the Epson has problems with this sort of material then I'll pass. If it does well with it and its really "bright" then I'm in.
post #867 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Tom, I'm @ 1.25 from the 142" and don't see any issue with pixel structure or SDE at this distance. I'll have to get a little closer to see if that changes.

That would be great!

Thanks

Tom
post #868 of 3271
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Zombie -- if possible could you please check out the Harry Potter movie Deathly Hallows Part 2 3D with the Epson. Others have complained about ghosting in this movie. I just watched it with the cheap 720p 3D Acer (with Nvidia glasses) and it looked really, really good (no ghosting, good shadow detail etc.)! If the Epson has problems with this sort of material then I'll pass. If it does well with it and its really "bright" then I'm in.

I am not a fan of these movies, but I'll get it today for a tech demo. What scenes do you want me to check out? I am not watching the entire movie.
post #869 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I am not a fan of these movies, but I'll get it today for a tech demo. What scenes do you want me to check out? I am not watching the entire movie.

I sympathize! I don't like these movies either -- except this one. This is the only Harry Potter movie I actually liked and I thought the 3D was good (and I think it is converted). I have heard it is really tough for "ghosting" so it might be a good test for non-DLP projectors. I am very close to purchasing the Epson, but a little gun shy after reading so many discouraging 3D stories on this forum.

Thanks
post #870 of 3271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I sympathize! I don't like these movies either -- except this one. This is the only Harry Potter movie I actually liked and I thought the 3D was good (and I think it is converted). I have heard it is really tough for "ghosting" so it might be a good test for non-DLP projectors. I am very close to purchasing the Epson, but a little gun shy after reading so many discouraging 3D stories on this forum.

Thanks

I liked Harry Potter ok even if it was a bit sappy and overly kiddisome at times, but it gets old pretty fast. The one thing I can enjoy on Harry Potter is the incredible contrast of the camera work in dark scenes, it was really good camera work.

BTW, didn't like Conan at all, thought it was somewhere between kind of bad and just awful, the massive blunt traumas to the head was kind of funny I suppose.
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