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The Grove Theater and Basement Build - Page 2

post #31 of 1066
1/10/12 at 5:42am
Thread Starter 
After playing around with the layout a little more (based on feedback I have received) here is the latest version.



The IB chamber is a little small at about 5x Vas for (4) subs but I still think it will be ok. I plan to stuff some insulation in the and try and bump that number a little. This layout also opens up a little room up front between the main speakers for additional subs if I find that the IB just isn't enough (hope that isn't the case but it never hurts to have room to expand ).

I shared half of the foot of space that I gained with the workout room and used the other to shift everything (screen and seats) forward in the room to get the second row a little farther off the back wall. I'm clear of the back wall by about 14" now. Not sure I want to sacrifice pushing things forward more at the expense of viewing distance (front row) from the screen. Current front row viewing distance is 11'-6" from a 130" wide screen.
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post #32 of 1066
1/11/12 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

Thanks for checking out my build (well, at least the prework). Very true, it has been pretty mild so far. I'm sure we will pay for that soon. The plywood is still cool to walk on but not near as bad as the bare concrete. I think it will pay off once I get all the other insulation in there and get the ambient temp up a little. Right now it floats around 63-64 degrees with just one small vent feeding the whole space. That's only a few degrees off what we keep the rest of the house so hopefully it won't take much to keep the basement at a comfortable temp. One thing I noticed that I didn't expect was that the humidity has dropped a few percent since I started. Right now I am just under 50% humidity.

I originally wanted to pull all the insulation around the top of the foundation and spray all the cavities but I don't really have the additional funds budgeted for that (after seeing what kind of money is going to be needed for other parts of the project ). Also thought about cutting up the pink sheathing and filling each cavity with that but that would be more trouble than it's worth I think. I have a large pile of insulation that I pulled off the top 2 feet of the concrete walls that I can use. Plan to frame the walls around the perimeter and then stuff more of this insulation into those cavities to help bring up the R value. Will have 6-8 inches of insulation around the top of the foundation so I think that should be sufficient.

Hope to get back at it soon. Currently finishing up a project that I started before the basement that the significant other would like to see finished before I get lost in a new project. Also, still shopping for the best pricing on lumber for framing. Looking forward to that stage of the project.

Vanice,
Sounds like the insulation and sheathing on the floor was a very good move!

Did you ever get a price for the spray foam insulation up top. Several on here did their entire basement and loved it (also indicating it was expensive).

Someone else had the top 2-3' sprayed and said it made a big difference for a modest cost. Not to nag this point but I wish I would have done the upper 2' of my walls, including the cavities between the overhead floor joists. The reason - I have a house that is now about 24 years old, and the seal between the foundation top and the 1st floor joists is marginal at best (think spiders and crawly things). I went all the way around with a vacuum and using the straw nozzle from cans of "great stuff" tried my best to inject a better seal between the foundation top and the wooden plate, in order to seal it up. Just saying what I would do different If I could start over
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post #33 of 1066
1/11/12 at 8:43am
Foam is best for thermal, worst for acoustic
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post #34 of 1066
1/11/12 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Vanice,
Sounds like the insulation and sheathing on the floor was a very good move!

Did you ever get a price for the spray foam insulation up top. Several on here did their entire basement and loved it (also indicating it was expensive).

Someone else had the top 2-3' sprayed and said it made a big difference for a modest cost. Not to nag this point but I wish I would have done the upper 2' of my walls, including the cavities between the overhead floor joists. The reason - I have a house that is now about 24 years old, and the seal between the foundation top and the 1st floor joists is marginal at best (think spiders and crawly things). I went all the way around with a vacuum and using the straw nozzle from cans of "great stuff" tried my best to inject a better seal between the foundation top and the wooden plate, in order to seal it up. Just saying what I would do different If I could start over

I never did price out what it would cost to have someone come in to spray those areas. I do know that it costs more than the free insulation that I have laying in a pile on the floor. You make a very valid point though about the house aging and insects finding more ways to get in. I have considered a similar path with the Great Stuff foam. Now is my only chance to "easily" do it. Might grab a can and see how far it goes. I have to finish the sheathing around the top of the foundation so while I'm up there I might as well pull the insulation and try the spray can. I know the wife would be happy if I seal all possible avenues for bugs to get in.
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post #35 of 1066
1/12/12 at 7:24am
I went around cleaning between these joist cavities with a shop vacuum. In the process I was surprised to see "slivers" of daylight leaking thru in many places (around builders "tar-paper/felt gasket"). I think i needed about 6~7 cans of the low expansion stuff, and with the small straw was able to do an "OK" job in sealing these gaps from the inside.
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post #36 of 1066
1/12/12 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
That wouldn't be too bad if I could do it in 10 cans or less. Definitely cheaper than having someone come in and spray the whole cavity with foam. I think the spray can and a lot of regular insulation will work pretty well. I'll give it a shot this weekend.
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post #37 of 1066
1/12/12 at 9:38am
vanice

I had a ton of air infiltration all along my rim joists. I bought some DIY kits and did it myself. As Ted said not good for acoustics but at the cost of heating our homes which is only going UP its a small price to pay for cost savings in the long run. I know you said you used some cans of foam but I can see from your pictures that the insulation is discolored from the dust and dirt filtering through. Nows the time to do while its all open. I did mine after framing the entire basement so I could spray and seal the rim joist board with the space above. Here is a photo note this is not in the theater and I filled these 3 spots alot more then the rest of the basement as the tanks were almost empty and want to use it up.



Here is the product I used and can say that it works great.
https://www.sprayfoamdirect.com/prod...hk,1/Itemid,1/
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post #38 of 1066
1/12/12 at 10:05am
Thread Starter 
I haven't actually sprayed anything yet. I will look into the spray stuff you referenced. The insulation is that color throughout so I think it was originally that color. My house is just over a year old so I hope there isn't that much junk flowing in from the outside. I am just trying to get the best rest I can without throwing a bunch of money at it. If I can get 80% of the results for a 1/4 of the price then that is the way I will go.
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post #39 of 1066
1/12/12 at 11:06am
You would think that someone by now would have come up with a product that works better then the little strip of blue foam they use to stop outside air from getting in. My neighbor is a home builder and says they use a couple thick beads of caulk on both sides of the foam before they put the top 2x8 plate on. He says that helps stop alot of air filtering in.


I went insulation crazy at my house I have every interior wall and ceilings done. really helps with sound control
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post #40 of 1066
1/12/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W00lly View Post

I went insulation crazy at my house I have every interior wall and ceilings done. really helps with sound control

I've always said if I am ever lucky (or unlucky) enough to build a home - that I would also go that way, good move !!
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post #41 of 1066
1/12/12 at 12:55pm
Thread Starter 
Agreed. I watched them do the house across the street (wasn't present when they did mine). Roll of thin foam insulation below the sill plate. I checked out the DIY spray foam. A little salty for my build I think. Don't disagree though that it is the 100% (or 99.5%) solution to keep the outside elements outside. I can hit the top and bottom of the joist cavity with the Great Stuff and then I have about 8"+ of insulation (the existing insulation plus pieces from the pile of insulation I have sitting in the middle of my floor) to fill each cavity. Will cut any drafts and I should have more than R15 with the insulation. I think this is the 90% solution and I am fine with that.
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post #42 of 1066
1/12/12 at 3:01pm
I only spray foamed half my rim joists the ones along the theater I did with r19 and then cut pieces of 2" foam and fitted them up between the joists so they joined the foam on the walls and then taped all the seams real well.

That was alot of work so I opted to spray foam the rest

If you look here you can kind of see how I did mine.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post10937120
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post #43 of 1066
1/20/12 at 7:59am
Thread Starter 
Question for the experts and those who have done it before.

Is there any benefit to using 3/4" OSB vs. 5/8" OSB as your first layer of double panel walls and ceiling? Will the clips handle the additional mass (without having to add a bunch more clips)? Would using a T&G OSB be a positive or a negative? I have been scoping out OSB prices and see that the T&G 3/4" OSB is only about $2 more per sheet than 5/8" OSB. Now 3/4" OSB without the T&G is even more expensive at about $4 more per sheet. That would probably be too much of a difference for me. So... the question is, 5/8" OSB or 3/4" T&G OSB??
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post #44 of 1066
1/20/12 at 9:16am
Go with 3/4" OSB. More mass at 80 lbs a sheet. 5/8" drywall is 72 lbs. 5/8" OSB is 67 lbs a sheet. We like the mass and your ceiling will hold it if properly installed and the correct clip / channel pattern is adhered to. If you anticipate any additional load, you'll need to change the clip pattern to accomodate
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post #45 of 1066
1/20/12 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
So going with the 3/4 is best but I will have to reduce the spacing of clips? Will I need extra clips around the perimeter if I plan to have the soffit structure attach to ceilings and walls post drywall? Does the T&G make a difference either way?
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post #46 of 1066
1/20/12 at 10:11am
Sorry, I meant if you planned additional load beyond 5/8" drywall, GG and 3/4" OSB you'll need to adjust clip patterns. If you simply have 5/8" drywall, GG and 3/4" OSB, you're OK with standard clip pattern of 24 x 48
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post #47 of 1066
1/20/12 at 11:21am
Thread Starter 
So my guess is the soffit weight really shouldn't be a factor since there are generally clips spaced closer together near the walls (and the wall is supporting part of the weight as well)? Just want to make sure that is I decide to go with 3/4" OSB that I won't be overloading the clips if I use standard spacing.
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post #48 of 1066
1/20/12 at 11:28am
Standard ceiling = standard spacing.

Soffits hanging from the same ceiling does not = standard ceiling.

You will need a dedicated support system for the vertical face of the soffit. The choice of the support system will depend on the size, weight and purpose of the soffit. This can easily become a dangerous scenario, and a ceiling failure could kill people.
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post #49 of 1066
1/22/12 at 5:30pm
Thread Starter 
As an engineer I am fully aware of the need for proper design. That is why I am reaching out to the experts so that I can get a better understanding. I tried emailing my layout to John but apparently the attachment didn't go through. That is why I am asking the questions here.

Worked on filling the cracks with great stuff today. Seems like it worked out pretty well. Found a couple of good size gaps. Also found a pack of lady bugs that I had to suck up with the vacuum. Gross.





Also fit up a piece of foam to finish off the full height. Still need to do this all the way around but needed to wait until the great stuff cured and I could get the insulation put back in place.

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post #50 of 1066
1/25/12 at 5:48am
Thread Starter 
Completed the reinstall of all the insulation that I pulled to spray foam last night. Also finished up almost all of the small foam sheathing pieces. Still have one area to finish but that is the area where I sneak my supplies in to the basement so it will have to wait until I get all long items to complete the basement in. May not have mentioned this before but I had to cut a hole in my rim joist between the garage and the basement so that I could get materials into the basement. I have a stairway that makes a 180 degree turn halfway down and it is impossible to get anything longer than 8ft around it. The hole made getting materials in so quick and easy. For those worried about me cutting a large hole in my rim joist, the wall above is not load bearing and just to be safe I constructed a header support. Probably not necessary but it allows me to sleep at night. Once I have all supplies in the hole will get sealed back up like it was never there.

Time to order some wood and start making this basement look like something. Also need to place my order for clips with the Soundproofing Company. Hopefully I'll be framing by next weekend.
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post #51 of 1066
2/1/12 at 6:20pm
Thread Starter 
Got a couple of deliveries today!





Planning to start framing this weekend. Pretty excited to see the plans on paper become a reality. Hopefully I'm not missing anything that I will need...
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post #52 of 1066
2/5/12 at 10:42am
Thread Starter 
For those that have installed the IB-3 clips what type of hardware did you end up using? I found #10 x 2 1/2" wood screws but they are not hex head. They have the countersunk shank on them. Seems that they will not seat properly in the clip. Any thoughts everyone??
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post #53 of 1066
2/5/12 at 5:36pm
Thread Starter 
Completed very little framing this weekend which was a little dissappointing but think I have a good base now to start rolling. Here are a couple of pics.

First wall portion!


Where I stand right now.


We spent a lot of time making sure we were square and level so that chewed up a lot of time. I hope it pays off as we continue building.

Got a couple of the IB-3 clips in. Everything seems to be pretty solid. Hopefully I'll be able to work on it some throughout the week.
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post #54 of 1066
2/5/12 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

For those that have installed the IB-3 clips what type of hardware did you end up using? I found #10 x 2 1/2" wood screws but they are not hex head. They have the countersunk shank on them. Seems that they will not seat properly in the clip. Any thoughts everyone??

I used 2.5" Deckmate screws.

Also, not sure if this was discussed because I just went through your thread quickly, but are you going to do anything to decouple the walls. Attaching to the floor joists above with IB-3 is good but you'll still have a physical connection between the drywall on the two sides of the wall.
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post #55 of 1066
2/5/12 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the suggestion. The wood screws I picked up seem to work pretty well. I was afraid the head on the screw wouldn't work in the clip but they fit well.
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post #56 of 1066
2/5/12 at 6:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaustin View Post

I used 2.5" Deckmate screws.

Also, not sure if this was discussed because I just went through your thread quickly, but are you going to do anything to decouple the walls. Attaching to the floor joists above with IB-3 is good but you'll still have a physical connection between the drywall on the two sides of the wall.

Are you asking if I am using clips and channel on the ceiling? Not sure I understand your question. I thought using the IB-3 clips decoupled my walls.
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post #57 of 1066
2/5/12 at 6:37pm
I understand you are using clips and channel on the ceiling.

IB-3 decouples the walls from the joists above to minimize vibration but with a standard stud wall you'll still have a direct physical connection from drywall on the theater side to the studs to the drywall on the other side. Doing two walls with a 1" gap (room within a room), staggered stud walls, or clips and channel on the walls will eliminate this connection.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...-construction/
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post #58 of 1066
2/5/12 at 6:53pm
Thread Starter 
Have not considered that. So I am still going to get sound transmission through the walls because there is no separation between drywall? I guess I could look at staggered stud walls between the main area and the equipment room and the theater and the workout room. Might be able to use clip and channel as well. Need to figure out my best option between effectiveness and cost.
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post #59 of 1066
2/5/12 at 7:00pm
Yes you'll still have that physical connection. Sound can go through into the next room.

In terms of effectiveness I'm pretty sure it goes double wall>clips and channel>staggered stud>single stud. I did staggered stud in my room as it was the most cost effective even though it is not as effective as double walls or clips and channel.

Also, walls that are next to a concrete block wall are already decoupled so you can do just a single stud wall spaced 1" from the foundation so that you have no contact points.
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post #60 of 1066
2/5/12 at 7:22pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the info. I will look into the double stud and clips/channel wall. Money is a factor but I also want to limit space loss in the rooms. I'll spend some time this week looking into how I can make some changes. Good thing this was brought to my attention before I got to far along.
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