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The Grove Theater and Basement Build - Page 3

post #61 of 1103
2/5/12 at 7:41pm
Double walls will take up the most space. Two 3.5" bottom plates and a 1" gap. Staggered stud is a 2x6 bottom plate so 5.5". I'm pretty sure all the information is on www.soundproofing.com

Plus some more people will probably post tomorrow with their opinions
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post #62 of 1103
2/6/12 at 7:22am
Thread Starter 
Here is an updated layout showing the new staggered stud wall locations. I basically just added them where I had drywall on the opposite side that was exposed to a living space. Hopefully this solves my problem and gets me closer to having truely decoupled walls.

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post #63 of 1103
2/6/12 at 10:11am
Glad to see you have gotten your project going! Good work so far! Makes me want to do mine over!
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post #64 of 1103
2/6/12 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post

Glad to see you have gotten your project going! Good work so far! Makes me want to do mine over!

Thanks. Your build will be the model I follow for mine. I love how your room turned out. Just wish I had another 2'-3' of width like yours.

You can't be ready to jump back into the madness already! Your room is nearly (because rarely is anything 100%) complete. Though I can understand the itch after you put so much time and effort into the theater. It's almost like you are missing something and have way too much free time now.
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post #65 of 1103
2/6/12 at 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

Thanks. Your build will be the model I follow for mine. I love how your room turned out. Just wish I had another 2'-3' of width like yours.

You can't be ready to jump back into the madness already! Your room is nearly (because rarely is anything 100%) complete. Though I can understand the itch after you put so much time and effort into the theater. It's almost like you are missing something and have way too much free time now.

Yeah it's tough investing so much time in something, which in the end is very rewarding, and then going to nothing. BIG will joke that I gave up on the outside once the inside was done, but that exterior door was painting, which is what I dislike most, and I dont see it from the inside when the door is closed hahaha. DURING the work however, the excitement keeps you going, even on some of the days where you just wish you were done already.

I think my itch will be satisfied a little once I start work on the bar area, but that's not going to be anything special, just a basic kitchenette area.

Still, you are doing great so far and you are putting a lot of thought and planning into it, which is always what you should do. I love the detailed floor plans. I think my best floorplan was just a pencil scribble with bad handwriting. No matter what space anyone has, they will always wish they had just a little more. I'd love extra width for some extra chairs and extra depth too but we do what we can with what we have!

I like to see you are doing a custom sub! BIG kept telling me how much he'd like to see me build my own speakers.
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post #66 of 1103
2/6/12 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
I have spent a lot of time on my layouts. I work with them everyday tweeking here and there. I use CAD everyday at work so I have access to and working knowledge of a very good drawing program. Can be a problem too because it occasionally gets in the way of my work.

The IB sub is something that I started reading about in the beginning and thought sounded like a really cool idea if I could find the space. Plus it is something that very few people have. I like that exclusivity. I just hope that mine works as well as others on here.

Decided to go with the 4Pi speakers because of the rave of those who have used them or heard them and also another part of the theater that I can put my stamp on. I don't have speakers now that I can use so I would either need to purchase or build. After looking at some of the options in my price range I feel the 4Pi's offer the best value/performance. I won't be doing the full blown versions with the JBL woofer (way too far outside my budget) but I did go with the B&C. Already have a few parts on hand so if my build slows I may fill the time building these.
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post #67 of 1103
2/6/12 at 2:40pm
Can you elaborate on the floor materials and build?:
  • What is the thickness of the foam board, and did you have to glue it down or put any plastic sheeting underneath it?
  • What is the thickness of the plywood on top of the foam board, and did you use any special moisture resistant or exterior type plywood, or just the normal stuff? Also is it tongue and groove?
  • I imagine you fastened the plywood down to the cement floor in some manner (else the floor would be wobbly/warped), can you provide some details?
For my upcoming basement finishing, I was planning to apply some kind of linoleum tile and then some throw rugs, but your method seems like it would be warmer. In my older house moisture is probably more of a concern than in yours, but I am thinking a floor such as yours, might allow for some wall-to-wall carpet, which would be nice. Thanks for any info.
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post #68 of 1103
2/6/12 at 5:12pm
Thread Starter 
Indio22

Not a problem, here is what I used.

1) I used the 3/4" foam board. I was trying to limit my loss in height and width and there wasn't enough of an increase in R value in 1" to make it worth the added expense. I used Loctite PL300 foamboard adhesive. It did a pretty good job of sticking if you were patient. Also, small tip I learned from this forum, make little circles with the adhesive. They will act like little suction cups when you press it to a wall or the floor. Otherwise it wants to slide around or not stick at all. And I put adhesive on every other row since the plywood is really what is going to hold the floor down. No plastic is necessary since the foam acts as the moisture barrier. This also means that you wouldn't use paper backed insulation or plastic if you put the foam on your walls like I did.
2) The plywood is standard 5/8" CDX. I would have liked 3/4" but again I played the cost vs. loss in height game. The 5/8" should give me plenty of material to attach my walls to. It is not tongue and groove. I almost pulled the trigger on some 3/4" T&G OSB. After messing with this extremely warped plywood I kind of wish I had gone with the OSB. The foam should keep the moisture off of it so both products would have worked just fine. I went the cheaper route and fought it a little more than I would have liked.
3) I bought a powder actuator nail gun. It was the lowest in the line (since I don't really have a use for it after this), the one you strike on top with a hammer. It worked reasonably well until I got about half way through and it started jamming up. That slowed me a little but it never broke which was good. The nails were 2 1/2" long I believe so that they went through the plywood, foam, and imbeded at least 1" in the concrete. I still need to go back and put a few more in because some pulled loose and others I must have just missed. Will wait until I get ready for flooring so that I can take care of any squeaks or high points.

This was the main reason I did the foam and plywood. I wanted to warm the floor and be able to put any flooring surface down there that I choose. I have a friend who only did his theater and it feels great. The rest he applied straight to the concrete and it is freezing on bare feet.

And by doing the entire floor first I don't have to worry about fitting my floor in after all the walls (making a million cuts probably). Now I can just frame my walls and stand them without having to worry about powder actuated nails or pressure treated lumber.

Hope this helps and thanks for checking out my build.
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post #69 of 1103
2/6/12 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanice View Post

Indio22

Not a problem, here is what I used.

1) I used the 3/4" foam board. I was trying to limit my loss in height and width and there wasn't enough of an increase in R value in 1" to make it worth the added expense. I used Loctite PL300 foamboard adhesive. It did a pretty good job of sticking if you were patient. Also, small tip I learned from this forum, make little circles with the adhesive. They will act like little suction cups when you press it to a wall or the floor. Otherwise it wants to slide around or not stick at all. And I put adhesive on every other row since the plywood is really what is going to hold the floor down. No plastic is necessary since the foam acts as the moisture barrier. This also means that you wouldn't use paper backed insulation or plastic if you put the foam on your walls like I did.
2) The plywood is standard 5/8" CDX. I would have liked 3/4" but again I played the cost vs. loss in height game. The 5/8" should give me plenty of material to attach my walls to. It is not tongue and groove. I almost pulled the trigger on some 3/4" T&G OSB. After messing with this extremely warped plywood I kind of wish I had gone with the OSB. The foam should keep the moisture off of it so both products would have worked just fine. I went the cheaper route and fought it a little more than I would have liked.
3) I bought a powder actuator nail gun. It was the lowest in the line (since I don't really have a use for it after this), the one you strike on top with a hammer. It worked reasonably well until I got about half way through and it started jamming up. That slowed me a little but it never broke which was good. The nails were 2 1/2" long I believe so that they went through the plywood, foam, and imbeded at least 1" in the concrete. I still need to go back and put a few more in because some pulled loose and others I must have just missed. Will wait until I get ready for flooring so that I can take care of any squeaks or high points.

This was the main reason I did the foam and plywood. I wanted to warm the floor and be able to put any flooring surface down there that I choose. I have a friend who only did his theater and it feels great. The rest he applied straight to the concrete and it is freezing on bare feet.

And by doing the entire floor first I don't have to worry about fitting my floor in after all the walls (making a million cuts probably). Now I can just frame my walls and stand them without having to worry about powder actuated nails or pressure treated lumber.

Hope this helps and thanks for checking out my build.

Appreciate the info. Ceiling height is also a concern of mine, but I am leaning now towards your type of floor for the insulating benefit. Just ordered a set of front home theater speakers, but my basement finishing does not begin for several months - so will be following along your build for ideas.
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post #70 of 1103
2/11/12 at 9:00pm
Thread Starter 
Worked a little today on the framing for the IB enclosure.





My first attempt at a staggered stud wall. Not too bad. Have a couple more to work on tomorrow.



Hope to have a little more to show for my day tomorrow. We shall see.
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post #71 of 1103
2/11/12 at 9:03pm
Looks great!

If that bottom plate is touching the support pole you might want to cut it out a little more to keep a 1/4" gap. That way there is no contact for sound to travel through. Also the same for the I-beam if it is touching. You want to minimize contact.

A couple things to consider as well after looking at your updated floorplan. You'll want to do the staggered studs on all theater walls that are not against the foundation. I noticed that the ones to the right and left of the door do not have them. Also are you going to soundproof the room that your rack is in like the rest of the theater? The hole for the rack will be a flanking path for sound. If you soundproof that room as well it would eliminate that path.
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post #72 of 1103
2/12/12 at 6:30am
Thread Starter 
I did make sure that I cut around the pole shown. Like you said, there is about a 1/4" on all sides and the top.

I am planning to treat the equipment room (with the rack) the same as the theater. I added a staggered stud wall between the equipment room and the main room and between the theater and the workout room. I do not plan on drywalling the area to the right of the entry where the HVAC room is so I think a staggered wall would be a waste. I do plan to leave a small gap in the framing between the door framing on the right and the framing that wraps around the front of the HVAC area. I will insulate the HVAC area but drywalling it would be too difficult.
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post #73 of 1103
2/12/12 at 7:08am
That's great that you're treating the room that the rack is in.

I would still try to do the staggered stud wall next to the HVAC room and put a piece of drywall on the other side of any theater walls in that room. You want a mass to air to mass system. So drywall on theater to insulation to drywall on the other side. Not completing this on all walls (even if there is not a finished space on the other side) will allow sound to leave the room and then travel up through the floor to rooms above. The drywall doesn't have to be pretty in the HVAC room. Just slap a few sheets up and seal the seams with caulk.
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post #74 of 1103
2/12/12 at 7:48am
Thread Starter 
How is it different though than the walls against the concrete? No drywall on the outside of those and it has a potential path straight upstairs through the floor?
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post #75 of 1103
2/12/12 at 8:28am
The walls next to the concrete are only an inch from the foundation. The foundation is close enough to act as the second piece of mass to complete the mass-air-mass system.
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post #76 of 1103
2/12/12 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
I see. I have barely enough space right now for staggered construction on that wall without cutting into my already narrow room space.

Could I use whisper clips on that side (HVAC side) with 2x4 construction and a single layer of drywall? That way I could proceed as planned and add mass later if I find it becoming a problem.
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post #77 of 1103
2/12/12 at 9:47am
Whisper clips work to decouple, but they need to be on the theater side so that they can get mass loaded with two layers of drywall and because it is better to decouple before the sound can enter the space in the wall.

You can't put the staggered stud wall there? It is only an extra 2" versus a regular wall. You could still have the theater space be the same width by placing the theater side of the wall at the same point as the regular 2x4 wall was going to be and having the extra 2" protrude into the HVAC room.

The wall with the whisper clips and hat channel on it will be close to the same depth as a staggered stud wall.
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post #78 of 1103
2/12/12 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
Yes, I am cutting it pretty close. The staggered wall plus drywall is an additional 2 1/2" that I hadn't planned for. I can probably squeeze it in there. May just have to cheat a half inch out of the theater space.
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post #79 of 1103
2/12/12 at 11:23am
I would definitely include it if you want to get the most out of your soundproofing. Especially considering the fact that your furnace will make noise in that room that you don't want to hear in the theater.
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post #80 of 1103
2/12/12 at 2:15pm
Thread Starter 
Very good point. Going to need to visit the lumber yard this week to get more 2x6's.

Glad to get this worked out before anything is build. Would really suck to have to tear something down to redo it. Thanks for the help aaustin.
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post #81 of 1103
2/12/12 at 2:19pm
No problem

Since we're on the topic of soundproofing what are your plans to ventilate the room, seal lights, outlets, etc? I don't know if this has been discussed yet but it's good to iron these things out too before the building gets to far. You don't want lots of unsealed holes in your room.
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post #82 of 1103
2/12/12 at 7:21pm
Thread Starter 
Still working on my ventilation plan. Probably need to bring in an HVAC company to help me determine what my current system can handle and what I would need to add to keep the basement comfortable. Maybe a dead vent for exchanging air between the theater/equipment room and the main room.

Lighting will all be in soffits so no holes in the drywall shell. Outlets will be in the columns or riser. Will work to keep outlets and switches internal to the room to limit holes.

Here are a few pics of the days work.

Finishing the IB enclosure...




Soon to house (4) 18" IB3's!!


And here is a shot of the framing layout and the HVAC concern. The line shown is about 5 1/2" to 6" from the trunk. Will probably just shift this line about a 1/2" to make room for the staggered wall and the additional drywall. A little concerned with the shelving unit near the entrance. That will be tricky but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

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post #83 of 1103
2/12/12 at 7:32pm
Framing looks great!

In terms of ventilation I would recommend the air exchange with the rest of the basement approach. That way you don't tie into the house HVAC at all and risk letting sound into where it can be distributed throughout the house.

Also what are your plans for the ceiling in the IB enclosure? I assume whisper clips and hat channel with double drywall plus green glue? That I-beam is going to cause a little trouble in terms of soundproofing that space. Considering the fact that you will have four big subs in there I would build a soffit around the I-beam. Build a 2x2 frame and hang it from a piece of channel reinforced with extra clips on both sides of the beam. Then cover with double drywall and green glue. Alternatively you could do the OSB and drywall method to eliminate most of the 2x2's. This will ensure that the beam is not a flanking path.
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post #84 of 1103
2/13/12 at 6:07am
Thread Starter 
Here is a drawing of the side view of the IB enclosure to show how I plan on finishing the ceiling.



I plan to hang a 2x4 ladder structure on one side of the beam with IB-3 clips. My framing on the theater side will complete the box around the beam. Then I will lay 2x4's on top of the outside wall and the ladder structure I hung to support the ceiling. Stockmonkey2000 did this for his IB enclosure and it worked out just fine. Then using 3/4" OSB I will skin the whole inside making it a solid structure. Then on with the GG and 5/8" drywall to finish it off.
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post #85 of 1103
2/13/12 at 7:03am
Awesome! That sounds great.

One last thing to consider. Most of the time when people build on concrete they don't worry about treating the floor, but since you did the foam board there could potentially be a flanking path there under your walls. You might want to consider doing another layer of plywood with Green Glue on the floor in the theater.

This is just an observation. Ted can give you a better answer on whether you need it or not.
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post #86 of 1103
2/13/12 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
I have/will use the foam on a roll under all theater related walls and plan to use acoustic caulk at all floor to wall transitions. Now that you mention it I will probably caulk all the cracks in the plywood flooring to help with sound transmission underneath. Not sure I could justify the added expense and loss of room height to add another layer of plywood though.
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post #87 of 1103
2/13/12 at 7:23am
I understand the problem of added expense.

I guess my concern is that you'll have 3/4" gap underneath all your walls that sound can potentially get through. To give you an example I built some backer boxes last weekend for recessed lights in my theater. Being the curious person I am I fired up a song on my phone, laid it on the floor, and placed the box over the top. The sound was definitely quieter but I could still here the words to the song clearly. I realized that there was a small gap between one side of the box and the floor due to the floor not being perfectly level. Cover up this gap and the sound stopped. So I guess the moral of the story is that a small gap all around the room perimeter could really kill sound isolation.

Like I said this is just an observation and it might not be a concern but given the fact that foam is not great when it comes to sound isolation it might be worth a second look and an answer from someone more knowledgeable than myself.
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post #88 of 1103
2/13/12 at 7:40am
Thread Starter 
I can see your point on the leakage and having all points sealed. Hopefully it won't be a problem in my case but I won't know until I get the room sealed up. Worse case would be that I had to add it later after the drywall and everything was complete.

Hopefully Ted will chime in with his opinion.
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post #89 of 1103
2/19/12 at 6:43pm
Thread Starter 
Here is the weekends progress. Pretty excited because I nearly have a completely framed theater. Still have to frame the equipment room and entryway (and the rest of the basement for that matter) but I feel good about my progress. On with the pics!!

Looking at the new front wall (from outside the theater room).


Standing at the entryway looking into theater room.


Looking at the front wall. Still have a wall to put up but need to do some framing around the drainage piping first.




Standing in the theater looking out the entryway.


I would like to try and get that wall on the floor up and installed this week.
Seeing the room take shape is exciting. It makes me want to keep pushing a little farther each time I am working down there.
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post #90 of 1103
2/23/12 at 7:12am
Thread Starter 
Was able to finish up that fourth wall (the one laying on the floor) last night (no boring pictures this time). Also boxed out around the plumbing drain in the front right corner. So I am now 99% complete with framing the theater room. Next step will be the equipment room/entrance this weekend. This part is going to be pretty tricky because there are a lot of obstacles to work around in this area.

I will be getting a few more supplies this weekend. Planning to get the OSB for the theater walls/ceiling and possibly the hat channel if I can find the right stuff. Then I will be working on framing out more walls throughout the basement, since I am trying to finish the entire basement at the same time.

One of these days I will have some exciting progress to report.
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