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Need help on first HT purchase!

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
Hey all, I am looking to put together a speaker system used for 50% movies/tv and 50% music for bass heavy loud electronica/dubstep parties.

It is going into a very large open living room 30ft/25 feet 9 ft ceilings it is all hardwood and is an open floor plan to kitchen and dining room. (lots of reverb due to hardwoods)

To give an idea of price range I have been looking at:
Polk audio monitor 60's
ED A2-300 sub
good receiver for around 300-350?
(Will purchase a center speaker down the road such as polk audio cs20)

Need advice, is this a good setup or is there anything that should be changed for better components at comparable prices? Is this subwoofer powerful enough to provide the low distortion, very low frequency rumbling bass that you can feel in your chest? Also having clear highs and mids are important ( I cant stand it when a sub sounds like a high frequency kick drum).

Open to any suggestions Regarding setup/ components etc. THanks
post #2 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skri///ex View Post

any suggestions Regarding setup/ components etc. THanks

Yep. Up your budget by at least 4X or sit really close to the sub

Gene
post #3 of 56
How far will you be from the speakers? Not sure how loud those Polks can go for parties. That's a lot of space to fill for just one sub. Your sub question would be better addressed in the Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers forum. You may be able to get away with it for movies if the sub is near field, but not for your dubstep parties. You will need at least two big subs to fill the room and even out response. One sub will not be up to the task and you may likely have nulls galore. No $350 receiver is going to give you dubstep parties level sound from anything less than high efficiency speakers in that room either.
post #4 of 56
Thread Starter 
The room is 30X20 however the area where people would be standing and enjoying the music would be 20X15x9. I dont mind if anywhere of of that space is a null zone or sonically uneven. So with that maybe it would be more manageable. Any other sub that would be bigger and louder at the same price point which would work better for the bigger space?

fyi I currently have a cheap sound bar with a tiny 35 watt subwoofer. The highs can be heard but the mids and subwoofer might as wel be non existent more than 3 feet away. I will post a picture of the room with the seating area for reference
post #5 of 56
Thread Starter 
Hope this worked... heres a pic of the living room. we push the couches back about 6 feet to make a more open dance floor in front of the television. Im open to any suggestions in order to fill that space with speakers loud to make a club type of atmosphere =)
LL
post #6 of 56
I would suggest you just go with a two channel system for the time being. It looks like you are not operating on a large budget, and if you spread that out over a 5.1 AVR and five speakers, the sound will really suffer. I would go for a couple high sensitivity speakers like Klipsch or Chase Home Theater or ED's Cinema series, and buy a used AVR or amplifier to power them. Alternatively you could look for active pro-audio speakers and hook them up directly to your TV, skipping the AVR altogether. That would provide the cleanest loud sound that you can get on your budget.
post #7 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by kini62 View Post

yep. Up your budget by at least 4x or sit really close to the sub

gene

lol!!!
post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I would suggest you just go with a two channel system for the time being. It looks like you are not operating on a large budget, and if you spread that out over a 5.1 AVR and five speakers, the sound will really suffer. I would go for a couple high sensitivity speakers like Klipsch or Chase Home Theater or ED's Cinema series, and buy a used AVR or amplifier to power them. Alternatively you could look for active pro-audio speakers and hook them up directly to your TV, skipping the AVR altogether. That would provide the cleanest loud sound that you can get on your budget.

I second this!!!

The hardest part of your project is filling that room with bass for your movies and music. In fact, I would start with the sub, then try to see hwo much you have left over for front speakers. You could probably go as low as Infinity P163's from Crutchfield for $85 a piece for the front three speakers and save the rest for your sub.

Oh, and about your receiver question, check out the Onkyo TX-NR609. That should be plenty!
post #9 of 56
If you could live with a 2.1, look at the HK 3490 2 channel stereo receiver. 120 watts with optical input and 2 sub outs. Then a pair of the HSU HB-1 bookshelves which have 92db sensitivity and handle up to 250 watts. Plus, they have a low end of 60hz, which works well since the receiver doesn't have bass management to set a higher crossover (you would adjust your sub to kick in at 60hz). Add in an Epik Legend or Rythmik FV12 (both are considered musical), and you could always add a second matching sub in the future.
post #10 of 56
The HK 3490 is a terrific receiver, it can also handle 4 ohm speakers so that really opens up your options as far as speakers go. The Hsu bookshelfs are very good speakers as well, incidentally I had an 3490 running some HB-1s at one point, and they played very nicely together. Depending on how loud the OP intends to crank it though, there may be more appropriate speakers out there, but the Hsu can get nice and loud. I don't think the Rythmik or Epik subs would be up to the task however, given the OPs tastes and budget. I think the OP's suggestion of the Behringer Eurolive from this thread is far more appropriate for what he wants to accomplish. If the OP doesn't need the feature set of a receiver, perhaps a simple amp like this one will suffice and will save him some money that could be used for some seriously loud, low distortion speakers. It might be worth the OP's while to look for some used Klipsch Cornwalls or Heresys or something like that. Craigslist, ebay, audiogon, and the Klipsch forum classifieds would be good places to look for great deals on stuff like that.
post #11 of 56
At this budget range, even the Behringer is a compromise. It's rated by Behringer down to 35hz--and note that's not a -3db point rating. Will it even hit 35hz with any usable output? (A Parts Express user review says not.) Meanwhile, dub step, hip hop, and other dance genre artists are implementing more content below 40hz--and even experimenting below 30hz.
post #12 of 56
The subwoofer you are talking about does not have anything close to enough power to do what you want; it only has a 200-watt amplifier. You want one with at least a 12" driver and at least 400 watts of power. That puny little sub won't even come close to doing what you want.

I suggest you try the JBL ES250-PBK which is on Amazon for $350 and will possibly fill the bill; that is a good price, but shop around. If it won't do it for you, the next step up would be a Rythmic 12" subwoofer for about $900. It might take a $900 Rythmic to do what you describe, but maybe you should try the JBL and if that is not enough bass you could buy a second one. IF one JBL ES250 isn't enough, two would almost certainly do it.

The Polk Monitor 60 is probably a good choice. The Monitor 70 would be a better choice if you can afford it, but the 60 is probably going to work OK, since you need a high-power sub anyway. One nice thing about those is that they are 8 ohms, which will not draw too much current from the receiver.

The Onkyo HT-RC360 is the receiver I would recommend. It should give you what you need (120 watts per channel) and is $310 right now on Amazon. The HK 3490 is also good but remember it is only 2 channels, so if you want 3 or 5 later it will not do that.

My listening room is about that size and to get the low (16 HZ) organ notes and real serious low bass I had to buy two $1500 Vandersteen subwoofers, so don't think you are going to get the kind of bass you want on the cheap.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Skri///ex View Post

Hey all, I am looking to put together a speaker system used for 50% movies/tv and 50% music for bass heavy loud electronica/dubstep parties.

It is going into a very large open living room 30ft/25 feet 9 ft ceilings it is all hardwood and is an open floor plan to kitchen and dining room. (lots of reverb due to hardwoods)

To give an idea of price range I have been looking at:
Polk audio monitor 60's
ED A2-300 sub
good receiver for around 300-350?
(Will purchase a center speaker down the road such as polk audio cs20)

Need advice, is this a good setup or is there anything that should be changed for better components at comparable prices? Is this subwoofer powerful enough to provide the low distortion, very low frequency rumbling bass that you can feel in your chest? Also having clear highs and mids are important ( I cant stand it when a sub sounds like a high frequency kick drum).

Open to any suggestions Regarding setup/ components etc. THanks
post #13 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

At this budget range, even the Behringer is a compromise. It's rated by Behringer down to 35hz--and note that's not a -3db point rating. Will it even hit 35hz with any usable output? (A Parts Express user review says not.) Meanwhile, dub step, hip hop, and other dance genre artists are implementing more content below 40hz--and even experimenting below 30hz.

This is true, it will be tuned a bit high. However, in its range, it will get very loud, much much louder than any equivalently priced home theater subwoofer. No home theater sub in the OP's price range stands a chance of doing what he wants. I would say its better to have strong bass 40 hz and up than weak bass throughout the entire range. A dubstep party in a large room will absolutely beat the hell out of any mid level home theater sub, and it won't even come close to achieving the desired SPLs.
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

This is true, it will be tuned a bit high. However, in its range, it will get very loud, much much louder than any equivalently priced home theater subwoofer. No home theater sub in the OP's price range stands a chance of doing what he wants. I would say its better to have strong bass 40 hz and up than weak bass throughout the entire range. A dubstep party in a large room will absolutely beat the hell out of any mid level home theater sub, and it won't even come close to achieving the desired SPLs.

You are right, if he's willing to sacrifice the below 40hz response (I listen to a lot of electronica and some dubstep, and I wouldn't). I think realistically, the best answer to his original post is Kini62's: that there is not a sub in his price range that will accurately reproduce the genres of music that he wants at the volume he wants. Maybe at double the budget, the Epik Empire might come close to meeting his expectations, given it's reputation for having good mid-bass slam.
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

I suggest you try the JBL ES250-PBK which is on Amazon for $350 and will possibly fill the bill; that is a good price, but shop around. If it won't do it for you, the next step up would be a Rythmic 12" subwoofer for about $900. It might take a $900 Rythmic to do what you describe . . .

Rythmik has some comparison data of the output of their subs at 20hz (see table on the right). While it's certainly true that the output ratios could be different at higher frequency ranges, it seems unlikely that any of the higher priced Rythmik 12" sealed subs will exceed the output of the lower priced FV12.
post #16 of 56
Thread Starter 
Thanks u all very much for the advice and ideas. I think I decided to go with floor speakers as they would be easiest to place on either side of the fireplace and wouldnt have to buy mounts.
Narrowed it down to either Polk audio monitor 70's or Infinity Primus P362.. Same Price

Regarding the subwoofer im leaning a little more towards the JBL ES250-PBK as recomended by commsysman than the behringer eurolive because I would be willing to sacrifice loudness for lower freq better qual bass and ive owned jbl in car audio in the past.
Ill prob pull the trigger in a week after a bit more research on the subwoofer end hopefully something will become obvious
post #17 of 56
What about the PA-150 for the sub?

Here's a review that states it's a great choice for loud music in a large room:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=48&mset=46
post #18 of 56
Thread Starter 
Any thoughts on whether Polk Audio PSW505 would be comparable to the JBL es250? I can get it for $254 seems like a steal
post #19 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skri///ex View Post

Any thoughts on whether Polk Audio PSW505 would be comparable to the JBL es250? I can get it for $254 seems like a steal

Not reccomended for your room - not enough power!
You will also need to sit close to the JBL.
post #20 of 56
Thread Starter 
yeah and apparently the 505 is sometimes on sale for under 200
post #21 of 56
I don't have any experience with the equipment that people are saying to use but I wanted to give you my two cents on a sub. I'm using a BIC F12 (12" / 475w max) and it has more than enough umph for the room it is kept in. The room is roughly 1,600 - 1,800 sq ft and has 12 ft ceilings. I'm sure a lot of people will recommend not using this sub but I don't have any issues hearing it, even up on the third floor. Maybe your budget would allow for two of them? Anyway, like I said I'm sure someone will give a reason why they wouldn't be ideal but I thought I'd give you a heads up.
post #22 of 56
I would ask on the subwoofer forum before purchasing the JBL ES250-PBK. I've never seen it recommended there.

On the other hand, if you search the subwoofer forum, you will find testimonials from people who own the Premier Acoustic PA-150 that bluef0x recommended. It's known for being high output.
post #23 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skri///ex View Post

yeah and apparently the 505 is sometimes on sale for under 200

You will need to choose your compromise - with your budget, you
will not get real low bass ( below around 30 hz) with a budget home
subwoofer - and will sacrifice high spl. With a pro sub you will maybe
hit around 40 hz - however, you can get higher spl impact. And, with
a budget home sub, you really need more than one sub in your room.
Decisions can be challenging - good luck.
post #24 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudfrog View Post

I don't have any experience with the equipment that people are saying to use but I wanted to give you my two cents on a sub. I'm using a BIC F12 (12" / 475w max) and it has more than enough umph for the room it is kept in. The room is roughly 1,600 - 1,800 sq ft and has 12 ft ceilings. I'm sure a lot of people will recommend not using this sub but I don't have any issues hearing it, even up on the third floor. Maybe your budget would allow for two of them? Anyway, like I said I'm sure someone will give a reason why they wouldn't be ideal but I thought I'd give you a heads up.

What do you use the F12 for and have you measured the SPL from the sub alone? Everyone's version of loud enough is subjective. Me? I have an 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 5KW amp and a Revel B15a 15" sub powered by a 1.4KW amp in a 2300 ft3 sealed room. Will be adding another 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 4KW amp soon. I can easily reach 120db down to 30Hz currently.

My cousin on the other hand, has a 8" Pioneer with maybe 150W in a great room that opens to his kitchen and hallway and upstairs balcony. Probably close to 45K ft3 if not more. He thinks that's plenty of sub for him even though I was offering to give him my dual 10" subs and a 3KW amp.

Not trying to put you down, single you out or put you on the spot, but the OP is looking to throw dubstep parties. Your post was helpful in that you did list your setup and environment. I'm thinking the OP will need to either re-evaluate his budget or consider building a behemoth of a ported sub like the F20.

I'm not even close to knowing a lot, but I do know that for the levels of SPL he's looking for he's going to need displacement and lots of it in that size room.

OP, how good are you with your hands and tools? Are you willing to put in some sweat to build something that should be better than most, if not all, commercial subs at the same pricepoint?
post #25 of 56
Your space doesn't seem to be a true 30' x 25'. It's open, but doesn't look like it would be that difficult to fill with sound. Subwoofer placement would be key here though. I would suggest throwing it into a corner to get the best "output".

Mudfrog, I too have the F12 and think it's a good sub. I honestly think it would work well in the OP's space. You may not be able to FEEL the bass as easily as other, more powerful subs, but it should absolutely work in his area.

In order to really get the "chest pounding" bass you want, you would amost need two very high quality/powerful subs to evenly fill your room.
post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

What do you use the F12 for and have you measured the SPL from the sub alone? Everyone's version of loud enough is subjective. Me? I have an 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 5KW amp and a Revel B15a 15" sub powered by a 1.4KW amp in a 2300 ft3 sealed room. Will be adding another 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 4KW amp soon. I can easily reach 120db down to 30Hz currently.

My cousin on the other hand, has a 8" Pioneer with maybe 150W in a great room that opens to his kitchen and hallway and upstairs balcony. Probably close to 45K ft3 if not more. He thinks that's plenty of sub for him even though I was offering to give him my dual 10" subs and a 3KW amp.

Not trying to put you down, single you out or put you on the spot, but the OP is looking to throw dubstep parties. Your post was helpful in that you did list your setup and environment. I'm thinking the OP will need to either re-evaluate his budget or consider building a behemoth of a ported sub like the F20.

I'm not even close to knowing a lot, but I do know that for the levels of SPL he's looking for he's going to need displacement and lots of it in that size room.

OP, how good are you with your hands and tools? Are you willing to put in some sweat to build something that should be better than most, if not all, commercial subs at the same pricepoint?

I think your setup is probably the closest to what the OP wants, performance wise. I was thinking build as well. Though I didn't really see anywhere in his room that he could put a DIY sub. Though when I think DIY sub, I think BIG.
post #27 of 56
No offense, but that JBL sub looks awful. It looks like a BIC sub but costs more than twice as much. It definitely will not be a deep bass trawler as well, contrary to those specs there is no way this thing is hitting 30 hz with any seriousness. I don't think the OP understands the difference between pro-audio subs and home theater subs. Pro-audio is what they use in clubs and concerts, they have to have a huge amount of output, and everything else is a lesser priority. Any comparatively priced home theater sub will only have a small fraction of the output, and sacrifices output to appearance, size, extension, features, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the Behringer sub had literally 10x the output of the JBL sub. Behringer claims 126 db at 1 m in groundplane tests for the Eurolive. I think the JBL would be lucky to hit 115 db at its peak frequency in the same tests.
post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

What do you use the F12 for and have you measured the SPL from the sub alone? Everyone's version of loud enough is subjective. Me? I have an 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 5KW amp and a Revel B15a 15" sub powered by a 1.4KW amp in a 2300 ft3 sealed room. Will be adding another 18" sealed LMS Ultra powered by a 4KW amp soon. I can easily reach 120db down to 30Hz currently.

My cousin on the other hand, has a 8" Pioneer with maybe 150W in a great room that opens to his kitchen and hallway and upstairs balcony. Probably close to 45K ft3 if not more. He thinks that's plenty of sub for him even though I was offering to give him my dual 10" subs and a 3KW amp.

Not trying to put you down, single you out or put you on the spot, but the OP is looking to throw dubstep parties. Your post was helpful in that you did list your setup and environment. I'm thinking the OP will need to either re-evaluate his budget or consider building a behemoth of a ported sub like the F20.

I'm not even close to knowing a lot, but I do know that for the levels of SPL he's looking for he's going to need displacement and lots of it in that size room.

OP, how good are you with your hands and tools? Are you willing to put in some sweat to build something that should be better than most, if not all, commercial subs at the same pricepoint?

I use the sub for movies and music. I don't listen to dubstep much but for what I need it's more than enough. I strongly feel it's the best bang for your buck sub under $200.

Your not putting me down at all, I'm the first to say I don't know a whole lot about speakers. I almost bought that $100 Polk 10" sub till someone told me to try the F12. All I know Is the sub is in a very large room and it gets very loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterofBlasting View Post

Your space doesn't seem to be a true 30' x 25'. It's open, but doesn't look like it would be that difficult to fill with sound. Subwoofer placement would be key here though. I would suggest throwing it into a corner to get the best "output".

Mudfrog, I too have the F12 and think it's a good sub. I honestly think it would work well in the OP's space. You may not be able to FEEL the bass as easily as other, more powerful subs, but it should absolutely work in his area.

In order to really get the "chest pounding" bass you want, you would amost need two very high quality/powerful subs to evenly fill your room.

I have mine in a corner so I'm sure that helps a little as well, not sure how much difference it makes but that's what I read is best for open rooms. The F12 was on sale for $125 on black friday (Normal price of $183 which is what I paid). The OP could possibly pick one up to use while he plans his dream setup.
post #29 of 56
I'm pretty much in the same boat as OP. Huge (6000+ ft^3) room, want a 2.1/3.1 system for 50% movies, 50% electronic music

I think I'm going to go with the BIC PL-89 floorstanders and a PA-150 sub. I'm also really torn between Onkyo RC-360 and 709 receivers. How big of a difference is Audyssey 2EQ vs MultiEQ?
post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluef0x View Post

I'm pretty much in the same boat as OP. Huge (6000+ ft^3) room, want a 2.1/3.1 system for 50% movies, 50% electronic music

I think I'm going to go with the BIC PL-89 floorstanders and a PA-150 sub. I'm also really torn between Onkyo RC-360 and 709 receivers. How big of a difference is Audyssey 2EQ vs MultiEQ?

MultiEq applies EQ filters to the sub and speakers; 2EQ does not. See the table at the bottom of this page.
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