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235 Build - Page 2

post #31 of 428
12/30/11 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Assuming total light control for the room why do you feel screen brightness will be an issue? My initial thoughts on something that might work are the Panasonic PT-AE7000 with a white 1.3 gain screen but haven't decided any of that for sure yet. I have now just discovered the concept of a baffle wall so I'm assuming that could help deal with that bass response issue? I wonder how much that would cost to have designed/incorporated? There are just too many different ways to blow that budget

I'm just getting into this, so I'm no expert - but I'll copy a bit of the conversation I had in my thread (see link in signature) with Mike Garrett (AV Science Sales 5) about screen size. Naturally, your numbers will be slightly different, and to a certain extent, my objection is based on a unity gain screen. If you're willing to go with a microperf AT screen instead of a woven screen - I don't think I am willing to - you'll have an easier time coming up with the fL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

In a room 12 feet wide, before double drywall or fabric frames, I estimate a maximum practical screen width of 10.5 feet (126 inches). This may be as little as 6 to 8 inches on either side of the screen (I really feel like this is pushing it). At 2.40 to 1, this screen is 52.5 inches tall. The total area of the screen will be 6615 square inches, or almost 46 square feet. (Can someone check my math here?) That's pretty big. Zoomed to that size, the actual projected light beam will be just over 62 square feet (around 6 feet tall). To get 12 fL on 62 square feet of screen, with unity gain, I'd need about 750 calibrated lumens. Adjusting for bulb life... well I don't know, I haven't done the research. What can get me that much light? And have I done the figuring properly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Your math for the Foot Lamberts is correct, but you need much more lumens and or a screen with gain. You don't want to start anywhere near 12FL with a new lamp. You would need a new lamp long before you put 500 hours on the projector. Short throw a JVC RS45 should give you around 900 to 1,000 lumens, high lamp, best image mode. The RS55 should be around 900 lumens, same conditions. The VW95 around 770 under same conditions. HW30 around 900 under same conditions. AE7000 around 550 same conditions. I would reduce the size of the screen if going AT, unless you are going microperf.

If you've looked at these projectors, you'll know they are mostly not in the same price category as the Panasonic, which is on my short list.

Regarding the bass issue I raised, I'm not sure exactly what a baffle wall means in this context or how it will change bass modal response and interaction.

Fred
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post #32 of 428
12/30/11 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlogan6797 View Post

Agreed. Build your walls THEN lay your subfloor. Just make sure to use pressure treated wood for your bottom plates in contact with concrete.

What's the reason for using pressure treated wood for the bottom plates of the framing?
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post #33 of 428
12/30/11 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post


What's the reason for using pressure treated wood for the bottom plates of the framing?

So moisture does not get into the wood to make the wood swell/mold etc.
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post #34 of 428
12/30/11 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

What's the reason for using pressure treated wood for the bottom plates of the framing?

This is usually code as well in many jurisdictions. Pressure treated also typically helps with the critter problem too (termites, carpenter ants) so it is a smart move to use it in all the basement bottom plates for the moisture issues previously mentioned and pest resistance too.

Regards,

RTROSE
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post #35 of 428
12/30/11 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbraden32 View Post

So moisture does not get into the wood to make the wood swell/mold etc.

Gotcha. Just making sure there wasn't a sound isolation adavantage!
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post #36 of 428
12/30/11 at 5:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rs691919 View Post

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, how badly do you want the wetbar in the theater? You could just have an under-counter beverage fridge and thus decrease the linear footage of the bar; then move the door up to the middle of the theater, move the screen-wall up, and delete the counter behind the second row of recliners.

That sounds like a good possibility. I guess with this approach I lose about 3' of countertop along the side in exchange for a door further from the screen. That might be tough on the WAF. I'm still trying to determine how much better the sound would be in the room between a good set of in-walls (Triad, other?) vs a deeper stage allowing me to put in floor speakers (and possibly a baffle wall). In both cases speakers would be hidden behind AT screen. Does anyone know how much depth is normally needed for a baffle wall or in the absence of one how much depth is needed? Here's the latest candidate layout giving me more room in the front if I were to add a deeper stage for floor speakers:

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post #37 of 428
12/30/11 at 6:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Nope. In-walls require pretty substantial backer boxes to be field assembled. I'd vote to avoid in-walls.

Unless the in-walls are put into a faux wall that is built right up against the sound isolation wall? Something I noticed in Dark Knight's pics:

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post #38 of 428
12/30/11 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post


That sounds like a good possibility. I guess with this approach I lose about 3' of countertop along the side in exchange for a door further from the screen. That might be tough on the WAF. I'm still trying to determine how much better the sound would be in the room between a good set of in-walls (Triad, other?) vs a deeper stage allowing me to put in floor speakers (and possibly a baffle wall). In both cases speakers would be hidden behind AT screen. Does anyone know how much depth is normally needed for a baffle wall or in the absence of one how much depth is needed? Here's the latest candidate layout giving me more room in the front if I were to add a deeper stage for floor speakers:

Triads inwalls perform the same as their inrooms, so no loss in quality or sound. They make an excellent product and get great reviews all the time. Most home HT 's use smaller LCRs vs floor standing speakers and just use a sub or two for the lower frequencies crossing them over around 80Hz.

As for baffle wall, jump into the triad thread and ask Paul.
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post #39 of 428
12/30/11 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trek737 View Post

As you probably already know the Panny AE7000 is an excellent projector especially for the price. According to Projector Central it can light up a 200" screen... it will have no problem with the size you are talking about.

Here is the link and a few quotes:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/pana...tor_review.htm

Hi Jim, yes this was the article I had read also. It seems I could run this projector in Normal mode (with well over 1000 lumens) and still get a very good quality picture.
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post #40 of 428
12/30/11 at 9:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I'm just getting into this, so I'm no expert - but I'll copy a bit of the conversation I had in my thread (see link in signature) with Mike Garrett (AV Science Sales 5) about screen size. Naturally, your numbers will be slightly different, and to a certain extent, my objection is based on a unity gain screen. If you're willing to go with a microperf AT screen instead of a woven screen - I don't think I am willing to - you'll have an easier time coming up with the fL.

Hi Fred, I haven't done much reading on screens yet to know the advantages of microperf vs woven. Given the AE7000's ability to put out 1300 lumens in Normal mode, wouldn't that be more than enough to easily surpass 12fl? The projectorcentral review claims the Normal mode on this projector surpasses many other projector's Cinema mode.
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post #41 of 428
12/30/11 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Hi Jim, yes this was the article I had read also. It seems I could run this projector in Normal mode (with well over 1000 lumens) and still get a very good quality picture.

I use the AE4000 with a 150" Carada 1.3 gain Brillant White screen, non AT and I love the picture. There are some on AVS that have even a bigger screen with the 4000 and they are very happy with the picture quality. So even though I have not seen the 7000, it is on my short list if and when I decide to upgrade. Technology with projectors has made leaps and bounds over the past 10 years, and if they are anything like computers they will do the same in the near future. This is a good price point to be able to upgrade with out taking a big hit... Of course unless you are a big hitter and money is not an object...

Best of luck,
Jim
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post #42 of 428
12/31/11 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Hi Fred, I haven't done much reading on screens yet to know the advantages of microperf vs woven.

The microperf screens are vinyl and have small holes punched in them to allow sound to pass. The major advantage is that the vinyl can be basically any gain or color, just like a non-AT screen. A woven screen, on the other hand, is difficult to make with gain greater than unity (1.0); in fact, I'm not sure there even are any high gain woven screens, at any price. The advantage with the woven screen is two-fold. First, acoustic transparency is more uniform (and I think with less sound loss overall) and the finer pattern or holes allows for closer viewing without seeing the holes and less likelihood of moire. (This is all of the top of my head, so anyone should feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, please.)

If the AE7000 really is very much brighter than most others, and you're taking into account the dimming that will occur over the life of the bulb, then by all means, go for it. I'm just not sure.
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post #43 of 428
1/1/12 at 7:10am
The theater door has to open inwards, to be code compliant.
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post #44 of 428
1/2/12 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post

The theater door has to open inwards, to be code compliant.

I noticed quite a few layouts where the door opens outwards. Do you think that is code in most areas?
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post #45 of 428
1/2/12 at 7:12pm
Very unlikely if it's a single egress option out of a room. It's definately worth a call to the local building department to enquire about.
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post #46 of 428
1/2/12 at 10:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

235, the wall as described is decoupled. No worries. No clips.

Ted, Would you say you disagree with this old post or has newer research changed this view?

Originally Posted by Anthony A.
i would like to know if my current setup is sufficient. this is in regrads to foregoing the use of dc04 clips tp decouple the exterior walls of the theater to the ceiling joists. right now, i constructed my walls 1/2" short of the ceiling joists and there is 1 nail every 4' around the perimeter of the room holding the walls in place. so total number of nails in the theater is like 20. so the only coupling of the exterior walls would be the nail that connects it to the floor joists. is this an okau practice or will it make all my efforts of double drywall, greenglue and independant floating ceiling futile?


The nails will not provide wall to joist decoupling. If you want this, you should replace them with the RSIC-DC04 clips. It is exactly what they were designed to do.
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post #47 of 428
1/3/12 at 6:11am
It would probably only cost you about $100-$125 in IB-3's to do it right. I'd find other areas to try to save on. JMHO
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post #48 of 428
1/3/12 at 7:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

It would probably only cost you about $100-$125 in IB-3's to do it right. I'd find other areas to try to save on. JMHO

Not so much a budget issue. It's just that the walls are framed, insulation is in, vapor barrier is up and that messy black sealant is all nicely done right around where those nails are now That's why I would like to avoid if there is little or no benefit.
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post #49 of 428
1/3/12 at 8:29am
Sorry, missed that in post #17. Back to Ted.

I also missed that you drew things with the wetbar INSIDE the theater (I saw it first and thought it was outside). Are you completely sold on that being inside? Reason I ask is that if you keep it outside it solves a number of things (for me at least if it were my room)....
Frame in the teleposts with a 2x6 wall, move the wetbar closer to the screen wall, put door at middle seats, close off rack opening with new opening outside theater facing wetbar.

The issues I see that approach addressing are:
1) Rack out of theater: less heat/distraction/better soundproofing
2) Bar outside/relocated: more accommodating for acoustic treatments in the area where the bar/door is now which is right around first reflection points (visually).
3) Door relocated by front row seating: better flow into theater and #2

Again, just me, but I would prefer bar outside as a "staging area". Suppose you want a popcorn maker, crockpot, mircrowave, hot dog warmer, etc. for you and or guests. Do you really want all that inside? I'd prefer them to go outside to get another beer or make a dog than distracting in the room.
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post #50 of 428
1/24/12 at 12:35pm
Thread Starter 
After taking in some most valuable feedback, here are my refined plans:

- Framing over the window. It's just a small window that stares into the neighbors wall. The compromises it brought in terms of sound isolation, lighting control and acoustics just didn't seem worth jumping through hoops to keep it.

- Left and bottom walls (both interior) are staggered stud walls on 2x8 top and bottom plates. Includes GG + DD + R?? insulation. I'm working on a sketchup of that wall that runs underneath the support beam and will be posting it soon.

- Moved snack bar outside of the room. This gave me flexibility to move the door near the middle of the room.

- I'm now assuming I won't be buying in-wall speakers because of sound isolation compromises and an assumption I can get better quality speakers for the same budget if I don't limit to in-walls. Deeper stage now in plans to accommodate.

- I shrank the 235 AT screen down to a measly 130" wide

- Removed the 3rd row sit-up counter (just too tight) and adjusted riser size.

- Put in approximate locations of pillars. Pillar and soffit design yet to come.

- The equipment rack no longer opens to the inside of the room. Although I'm considering moving it to the linen closet across the hall so that I could have a back-access panel from the bedroom closet.....opinions?

That's it for now. As always feedback welcome.


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post #51 of 428
1/24/12 at 1:40pm
How much room are you allowing behind the AT screen?

FWIW, in my ongoing build I only have 17" and have found a way to make it work. Front ported speakers, cylindrical sub, etc. If you're trying to squeeze out every inch of viewing distance possible you may be able to cut down the typical 24" to maybe 20". Based on my experience you really wouldn't want to go much shallower than that.

Just my opinion.

Looking forward to seeing more progress AND PICS.

Cory
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post #52 of 428
1/24/12 at 3:43pm
EDIT: HA! That's what I get for not getting to the end of the thread before replying! Now I look like a genius!!!

Another possibility for the bar is to reverse it completely - put the bar in the hallway, avoiding the noise/light and perhaps giving you a little more flexibility in placement. (I'm partial to that arrangement - folks make a trip to the bathroom, come back with a new drink, minimal interruption)

May be more natural to use for non-theater times (sports drinks for the fitness room, etc.), depending on how you think you'll use the downstairs area.

If you have the space/depth in the bar area, think about a regular refrigerator instead of an under-counter one - you can get a freezer and icemaker - and a more generally-usable appliance. As long as you have the space for it.

Jeff
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post #53 of 428
1/24/12 at 7:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by manthatsnice View Post

How much room are you allowing behind the AT screen?

FWIW, in my ongoing build I only have 17" and have found a way to make it work. Front ported speakers, cylindrical sub, etc. If you're trying to squeeze out every inch of viewing distance possible you may be able to cut down the typical 24" to maybe 20". Based on my experience you really wouldn't want to go much shallower than that.

Just my opinion.

Looking forward to seeing more progress AND PICS.

Cory

Thanks Cory,
I have 2' behind the screen. I'm hoping to tweak that down a bit once I choose speakers and determine acoustic treatments. I think I read that distance from AT fabric to front of speaker should be at least 4".
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post #54 of 428
1/24/12 at 7:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

EDIT: HA! That's what I get for not getting to the end of the thread before replying! Now I look like a genius!!!

Another possibility for the bar is to reverse it completely - put the bar in the hallway, avoiding the noise/light and perhaps giving you a little more flexibility in placement. (I'm partial to that arrangement - folks make a trip to the bathroom, come back with a new drink, minimal interruption)

May be more natural to use for non-theater times (sports drinks for the fitness room, etc.), depending on how you think you'll use the downstairs area.

If you have the space/depth in the bar area, think about a regular refrigerator instead of an under-counter one - you can get a freezer and icemaker - and a more generally-usable appliance. As long as you have the space for it.

Jeff

Hey genius I just finished writing my reply when I saw your edited post. The reason I flipped it to the hallway was for those exact reasons you listed. Funny you should mention the full-size fridge. That's a current point of discussion with the better half. She would agree with you but my current thinking is that we already have 2 full fridges in the house. I'm not sure why we would need a third. I also found some under-counter fridges that have a freezer/ice-maker built in. Maybe that will be the compromise, although they aren't cheap.
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post #55 of 428
1/24/12 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Funny you should mention the full-size fridge. That's a current point of discussion with the better half. She would agree with you but my current thinking is that we already have 2 full fridges in the house. I'm not sure why we would need a third.

Reserve that argument for the second subwoofer...

Quote:
I also found some under-counter fridges that have a freezer/ice-maker built in. Maybe that will be the compromise, although they aren't cheap.

The reason I went to a full-size fridge in my bar was for a different reason. Researching the glass-front "beverage centers", which I wanted, I found that they didn't get very cold (above 40F), and at the bottom of their range (40F), there are notes about "the compressor may run continuously". Yikes.

I had originally planned for a beverage center and an under-counter fridge/freezer. But since I was planning the space (new construction), I realized for a lot less money and energy use I could get a full-sized fridge, with freezer and icemaker...

Glad you got to what IMO is the right answer on placement, even if you didn't wait for me to suggest it.

Jeff
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post #56 of 428
1/24/12 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Reserve that argument for the second subwoofer...

Good point. Maybe a 3rd full-size fridge is a good bargaining chip for a 2nd full-size sub
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post #57 of 428
1/24/12 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

After taking in some most valuable feedback, here are my refined plans:

- Framing over the window.

- Left and bottom walls (both interior) are staggered stud walls on 2x8 top and bottom plates. Includes GG + DD + R?? insulation.

- Moved snack bar outside of the room. This gave me flexibility to move the door near the middle of the room.

- The equipment rack no longer opens to the inside of the room. Although I'm considering moving it to the linen closet across the hall so that I could have a back-access panel from the bedroom closet.....opinions?

These are my favorite of your changes.

About the insulation - I'd say the R value is insignificant. Just make sure to loosely fill the wall so that it is less likely to resonate like a drum.

On the rack - I think easy access just outside the door as you have it drawn is pretty ideal - but that's a theoretical preference, not one from experience.

What viewing distances does this give you?

Fred
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post #58 of 428
1/24/12 at 9:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

These are my favorite of your changes.

About the insulation - I'd say the R value is insignificant. Just make sure to loosely fill the wall so that it is less likely to resonate like a drum.

On the rack - I think easy access just outside the door as you have it drawn is pretty ideal - but that's a theoretical preference, not one from experience.

What viewing distances does this give you?

Fred

Current plan gives me 12.5' front row and 17.5' to the back row. With the 130" wide CIH screen the back row would likely be ideal for 235 viewing and the front row for 16:9.
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post #59 of 428
2/11/12 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
My first time using sketchup. Nice tool but getting all the details exactly right takes a long time. This first view shows the space for the room as it currently exists. The only difference is I already have fiberglass insulation and vapor barrier on the exterior walls. I did not include the window that I am currently planning to frame over. Although I might still read up about window plugs before I completely rule out saving it. If anyone has good examples of window plugs please post a link.

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post #60 of 428
2/11/12 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
My current plan for the interior walls are to have 2x4 on theater side ~3/8" gap then 2x3 on other side. I chose this setup because it gives me decoupled walls but still fits under the beam. This setup doesn't seem typical but does anyone see any problems with this? I also plan on moving the plumbing to the outside of the room (outside the 2nd drywall leaf). Still planning on DD+GG on inside and single 5/8" drywall on outside. That will be my next task on my sketchup obsession








In this next pic I noticed the base plate from the existing exterior wall is one continuous piece. I guess I should open up the vapor barrier and cut a slit in there to decouple?

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