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235 Build - Page 4

post #91 of 347
5/4/12 at 5:10am
For the inline fan Panasonic fans are well reguarded......


Your throw distance and size are pretty common with folks using the Panny 4000 and its not the brightest in its class.

Looking forward to your HVAC adventure as Im having the same issues......
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post #92 of 347
5/4/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

1) ..........Should my exhaust fan dump directly into the main HVAC return or rather into an adjacent room? If a 200 CFM fan is blowing into the main HVAC return which already has lower pressure because main fan is ON then does it effectively become more than 200 CFM overall (logarithmic math maybe)?........

It depends

First, will your HVAC always be on when your exhaust fan is running? If not, this may not be the best configuration as the fan will be pressurizing the line to the nearest registers in order to exhaust your room. Depending on the size and length of the those lines you may not get the full 200 cfm your fan is rated for. You also need to consider which rooms it will be exhausting into under those circumstances.

If your HVAC will be on, then the total flow will depend on the system. You will probably get some increase above the 200 cfm, but it will likely not be additive. As an example, if your HVAC would normally pull 300 cfm from that line, you will probably not get 500 cfm once you add the inline fan. At some point, the fan will become a restriction in the line rather than boosting your flow. IIRC, that fan can only create a certain pressure differential, and once that differential is exceeded, the fan can't do any more to improve the flow. If the HVAC establishes that pressure differential while running (remember that fan is a restriction in the line), then turning on the fan will not produce any additional flow.

Someone may be able to give you a definitive answer based on your duct sizes, etc. But suffice it to say, I'm subscribed and felt the need to post something
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post #93 of 347
5/5/12 at 10:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

It depends

First, will your HVAC always be on when your exhaust fan is running? If not, this may not be the best configuration as the fan will be pressurizing the line to the nearest registers in order to exhaust your room. Depending on the size and length of the those lines you may not get the full 200 cfm your fan is rated for. You also need to consider which rooms it will be exhausting into under those circumstances.

I have a dual stage furnace which means a low and high fan speed settings. I normally leave the furnace fan ON with the low fan speed during daytime hours to help even out temps throughout the house. I could make sure both fans are ON at the same time. I also read once that doing this could be bad for the main fan since it wouldn't have enough resistance .

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

If your HVAC will be on, then the total flow will depend on the system. You will probably get some increase above the 200 cfm, but it will likely not be additive. As an example, if your HVAC would normally pull 300 cfm from that line, you will probably not get 500 cfm once you add the inline fan. At some point, the fan will become a restriction in the line rather than boosting your flow. IIRC, that fan can only create a certain pressure differential, and once that differential is exceeded, the fan can't do any more to improve the flow. If the HVAC establishes that pressure differential while running (remember that fan is a restriction in the line), then turning on the fan will not produce any additional flow.

Someone may be able to give you a definitive answer based on your duct sizes, etc. But suffice it to say, I'm subscribed and felt the need to post something

When the HVAC first went in I showed them the future basement layout plans. From that plan they installed two 5" round ducts in the theater room area. There are currently no returns in the basement other than an open stairwell to the floor above. I did a CFM measurement of the current flow from those 2 ducts using the "highly scientific" garbage bag and stopwatch technique. I was only getting about 35CFM per duct on low fan, 50+CFM per duct on high fan. I wonder how much that would increase once a room is built and returns are installed? That's why I like the additional exhaust fan to both be able to boost the existing flow when supply dampers draw from main trunk/fan or use as the sole fan when flipping dampers to draw from adjacent room (in cases where furnace blowing heat in winter but room needs cooling).

Thanks for the feedback, nice to know there's someone tuning in
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post #94 of 347
5/5/12 at 10:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Your throw distance and size are pretty common with folks using the Panny 4000 and its not the brightest in its class.

Good to know. I haven't done much PJ investigation yet but I was hoping to put PJ in (or just below) the rear soffit. Seems to be more out of the way with my low ceilings.
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post #95 of 347
5/5/12 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

I have a dual stage furnace which means a low and high fan speed settings. I normally leave the furnace fan ON with the low fan speed during daytime hours to help even out temps throughout the house. I could make sure both fans are ON at the same time. I also read once that doing this could be bad for the main fan since it wouldn't have enough resistance .

Hmmmm.... I guess it's possible. I know running a pump too far out on it's flow curve is bad, but it's not a direct comparison to a fan. A three-phase motor draws less current as it approaches 100% of rated speed, so winding temps should drop (which would generally result in longer motor life), but these are two-phase motors, so I'm not sure if the same is true. I know they are less efficient at reduced load, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to increased current. I'd be interested to know what the failure mechanism is when running them under reduced load like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

When the HVAC first went in I showed them the future basement layout plans. From that plan they installed two 5" round ducts in the theater room area. There are currently no returns in the basement other than an open stairwell to the floor above. I did a CFM measurement of the current flow from those 2 ducts using the "highly scientific" garbage bag and stopwatch technique. I was only getting about 35CFM per duct on low fan, 50+CFM per duct on high fan. I wonder how much that would increase once a room is built and returns are installed? That's why I like the additional exhaust fan to both be able to boost the existing flow when supply dampers draw from main trunk/fan or use as the sole fan when flipping dampers to draw from adjacent room (in cases where furnace blowing heat in winter but room needs cooling).

I'm confused, are you saying the ductwork is already installed and connected to the HVAC? If so, what returns are you planning to install that might increase the flow? If you are referring to the registers that cover the openings from the ducts into the rooms, then the best you can hope for is to not lose flow. If they are too restrictive, then there could be a bit of a flow reduction by putting on the registers.

Sorry, I suspect I'm just being a little dense today
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post #96 of 347
5/6/12 at 12:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

I'm confused, are you saying the ductwork is already installed and connected to the HVAC? If so, what returns are you planning to install that might increase the flow? If you are referring to the registers that cover the openings from the ducts into the rooms, then the best you can hope for is to not lose flow. If they are too restrictive, then there could be a bit of a flow reduction by putting on the registers.

Sorry, I suspect I'm just being a little dense today

The basement is currently wide open (no walls, completely unfinished). However when the HVAC was installed during construction of the house they installed 2x5" round supply ducts connected to the main HVAC unit dumping into the area where the theater room will be built. There are no return ducts anywhere in the basement area. The only return ducts are currently on the higher floors (split-level cab-over design). The only way air is returning to the main HVAC ducting is by heading upstairs to the nearest return on the floor above via the open stairwell. My sketchup pics show my planned duct work once the room is completed. It will have the 2 return ducts (high/low) connected to the main HVAC ducting along with an inline fan to boost flow. The 2 supply ducts(high) will have dampers to allow for either adjacent room or main HVAC air to be provided to the theater room. I hope that makes things clearer? Thx
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post #97 of 347
5/6/12 at 3:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Yes theyre expensive. I just wanted to comment on your projector mounting in the rear soffit.

If your zooming, the projector lens elevation must fall within the projected image. It looks like your projector will be way up close to ceiling and in that case so will the top edge of your screen.

That is only true for the Panny since it uses digital shift on the panel. The JVC's and the Sony VW95Es, use actual lens shift, so they do not have that same limitation.
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post #98 of 347
5/6/12 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I'm not aware of any that have power lens shift and memory. I'd plan on the whole lens its only a couple inches......

First step is deciding on screen size, then calculating optimum viewing angle which will determine height of screen top edge and the mounting elevation....

JVC RS45, JVC RS55, JVC RS65 and Sony VW95ES all have power lens shift, power zoom, Power focus and lens memory. A memory can be set using a different position, zoom and a different focus. If no horizontal lens shift is used, the projector can be mounted up to 30% of the image height above the screen if using one of the JVC's and still do zoomed CIH.
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post #99 of 347
5/6/12 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


JVC RS45, JVC RS55, JVC RS65 and Sony VW95ES all have power lens shift, power zoom, Power focus and lens memory. A memory can be set using a different position, zoom and a different focus. If no horizontal lens shift is used, the projector can be mounted up to 30% of the image height above the screen if using one of the JVC's and still do zoomed CIH.


Is there a downside to having the PJ above the height of the screen if using one of these?
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post #100 of 347
5/6/12 at 4:22pm
I had a long reply typed out and the system timed out and logged me out without posting. Long/short is that your design will work. My only suggestions would be to reduce your supply grille velocities to about 150fpm. Another suggestion is to try to find a projector that vents or rejects heat in the same path as your return air (more efficient cooling of the projector). I assume you will have a lined cover panel over the projector with an opening for the lens to act like a hush box.

The reason I can think of circulating air to an adjacent space is for winter operation so that you can take advantage of the heat to heat the adjacent space.
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post #101 of 347
5/7/12 at 4:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


JVC RS45, JVC RS55, JVC RS65 and Sony VW95ES all have power lens shift, power zoom, Power focus and lens memory. A memory can be set using a different position, zoom and a different focus. If no horizontal lens shift is used, the projector can be mounted up to 30% of the image height above the screen if using one of the JVC's and still do zoomed CIH.

Thats good to know!

I sit corrected.
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post #102 of 347
5/7/12 at 10:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talented Amateur View Post

I had a long reply typed out and the system timed out and logged me out without posting. Long/short is that your design will work. My only suggestions would be to reduce your supply grille velocities to about 150fpm.

Timeouts...I know the feeling, even the 'back' button doesn't work.
Glad to hear I'm on the right track. I reconfigured my supply soffits to each have a cross-section of 100"sq and a 10"x10" opening to match (see updated sketch below). Any suggestions on a diffuser for that size hole? Assuming (and this isn't a scientific number) I get 200 CFM shared between the 2 supplies that should give me just under 150 FPM at each opening on the supply. Everything I've read before says 250 FPM is sufficient, why do you feel 150 FPM is necessary?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Talented Amateur View Post

I assume you will have a lined cover panel over the projector with an opening for the lens to act like a hush box.

Would a cover panel be too restrictive on the air flow given that my plan is to use that higher return to both vent the projector and provide the return air flow for the entire room back to the main HVAC duct?? I was hoping to select whether to use the higher/lower return based on the heating/cooling mode. If in cooling mode the damper on the higher return line would be wide open and the lower damper would be closed. If in heating mode the damper on the lower return line would be wide open and the damper on the upper return line would only be open enough to provide PJ ventilation. The final possibility would be to have both dampers wide open at all times if the FPM causes a single open return to be too noisy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Talented Amateur View Post

The reason I can think of circulating air to an adjacent space is for winter operation so that you can take advantage of the heat to heat the adjacent space.

We might have our wires crossed here. I plan on having the room's supply lines come from either the main HVAC trunk OR from the adjacent room. I suspect most of the time the damper to the main HVAC trunk will be open. The adjacent room air (70 degrees) might be used instead of the HVAC air (90 degrees in winter heat mode) to cool the theater when there are lots of people in there. If this is sensible then can the inline exhaust fan on the room's return ducts be connected to the main HVAC return trunk or should it dump into the basement?

Thanks Bruce!!


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post #103 of 347
5/10/12 at 8:06pm
Different diffusers/grilles provide different noise characteristic with different airflow velocities. If you want to play it safe, lower your supply air velocity some more. I suspect that the noisiest component to your theater will be the projector if you don't isolate it with a "hush-box" style of installation.

I was also going to suggest a small hole in your supply air plenum that can allow air to circulate around to the projector to remove the heat.

I have my supplies from my furnace and in the winter it does not over heat. Remember that, unless you have a very leaky house or poorly insulated, your furnace is not going to be running all the time and the heat from your theater will be dissipated throughout the rest of your home if supplies and returns are connected. Mine is set up this way and works well.

If you want, you can install a bypass damper downstream of the booster fan to dump air into the adjacent room that can make its way back to the furnace.
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post #104 of 347
5/10/12 at 9:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talented Amateur View Post

I was also going to suggest a small hole in your supply air plenum that can allow air to circulate around to the projector to remove the heat.

My 2 supplies are in the front of the room (both high) and 2 returns in the back of the room (1 high and the other low). I'm not sure I understand why or where I would want a hole in my supply for venting the PJ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talented Amateur View Post

If you want, you can install a bypass damper downstream of the booster fan to dump air into the adjacent room that can make its way back to the furnace.

So a damper downstream from the exhaust fan and 2 dampers upstream for selecting the upper or lower returns?

Thx
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post #105 of 347
5/13/12 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post


1) My 2 supplies are in the front of the room (both high) and 2 returns in the back of the room (1 high and the other low). I'm not sure I understand why or where I would want a hole in my supply for venting the PJ??

2) So a damper downstream from the exhaust fan and 2 dampers upstream for selecting the upper or lower returns?


1) If you install a front panel, you will reduce the airflow to your projector. The air that currently goes to your projector is drawn across the front face and will build up dust on the lens faster. If you have a dedicated supply duct (say 4") that wraps around your soffit and feeds the built-in ventilation fan(s) on your projector, you will have greater airflow to your projector, potentially better cooling and reduced dust buildup on your lens (in theory). The only downside is when the furnace is in heating mode where you will not realize as much cooling. It would likely be required to have a bypass. It gets complicated and ideally a dedicated cooling unit would be best. Let's just say that if you drew air from an adjacent space, it would be more effective. If you are fine without the hushbox idea then the whole point is mute.

2) Dampers in the return registers located in the wall to select upper return or lower return (or both) and a bypass damper downstream of the exhaust fan if you want to dump air from the home theater into the adjacent room.
LL
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post #106 of 347
5/23/12 at 6:01pm
Thread Starter 
I pulled the trigger on seating and went with the Fusion Jive chairs. I like the smaller footprint, sleeker lines, lower back height, tray table, armrest storage, 5 yr warranty and of course Roman's reputation for great service. I ordered 4 curved seats for the back row IOVOOVOI and 3 curved seats for the front IOVOVOI. Now I have to look into the mini buttkickers and amp to see how well they perform. Thoughts?
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post #107 of 347
5/23/12 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Now I have to look into the mini buttkickers and amp to see how well they perform. Thoughts?

I had the regular Buttkickers on the Berkline seats I bought from Roman 3 or 4 years ago, and I loved them.
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post #108 of 347
5/23/12 at 10:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBon View Post

I had the regular Buttkickers on the Berkline seats I bought from Roman 3 or 4 years ago, and I loved them.

Roman doesn't think the Jives will be big enough to house the regular buttkickers. He won't know for sure until he gets his first order of Jives from overseas (any day now....)
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post #109 of 347
5/23/12 at 10:49pm
Thread Starter 
I am considering the Panasonic FV-20NLF1 inline fan for my return duct. I found a cozy spot to install it about 9' away from the room where it would dump into the main return plenum to the air handler. Upstream from the fan would split into 2 separate dampered flex duct runs connected to upper and lower return grilles in the room. Does anyone know if I can connect a variable speed controller to this fan in order to tweak the air flow? http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/FV-20NLF1
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post #110 of 347
5/24/12 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

I am considering the Panasonic FV-20NLF1 inline fan for my return duct. I found a cozy spot to install it about 9' away from the room where it would dump into the main return plenum to the air handler. Upstream from the fan would split into 2 separate dampered flex duct runs connected to upper and lower return grilles in the room. Does anyone know if I can connect a variable speed controller to this fan in order to tweak the air flow? http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/FV-20NLF1

Nice choice in fans, I hope to implement one in my theater soon.

FYI, these guys are the cheapest I've found:

http://www.theenergyconscious.com/wea1153.html

I'm still undecided as to whether I'll dump the air into the return or into a room. I'm concerned with dumping mine into the return as I feel like it will just get pumped back into the room.....
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post #111 of 347
5/27/12 at 4:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Nice choice in fans, I hope to implement one in my theater soon.

FYI, these guys are the cheapest I've found:

http://www.theenergyconscious.com/wea1153.html

I'm still undecided as to whether I'll dump the air into the return or into a room. I'm concerned with dumping mine into the return as I feel like it will just get pumped back into the room.....

I'm thinking of having my main house fan on anytime the theater exhaust fan is on. This should ensure that air from the rest of the house mixes with the theater air instead of being pumped back into the room or into the nearest return duct.
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post #112 of 347
5/27/12 at 4:16pm
Thread Starter 
Has anyone tried these: http://www.soundisolationstore.com/q...-original.html
I'm still not sure if I will need recessed ceiling lights if I have soffit lighting. I think the HVAC in my rear soffit might stop me from putting in as many soffit lights as I would like. Hmmm.....
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post #113 of 347
5/27/12 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 235 View Post

Has anyone tried these: http://www.soundisolationstore.com/q...-original.html
I'm still not sure if I will need recessed ceiling lights if I have soffit lighting. I think the HVAC in my rear soffit might stop me from putting in as many soffit lights as I would like. Hmmm.....

Check out the Cinemar thread and do extended soffits with lights like Mario did. Thats what I plan to do.
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post #114 of 347
5/27/12 at 6:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Check out the Cinemar thread and do extended soffits with lights like Mario did. Thats what I plan to do.

Thanks for pointing me to that thread. I had heard of it but never taken a look. I actually have extended rear soffits to allow for soffit lights right next to an HVAC section. Given my lower ceiling height I'm doing all I can to keep my side soffit width and height as small as possible. Cinemar has more height to play with so he was able to have much wider soffits. If only I had another foot in height to play with
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post #115 of 347
6/9/12 at 5:24pm
Thread Starter 
Picked up my mini-buttkickers on the way back from my golf trip in Brainerd, MN
Now I need to figure out which amp I should buy to drive 7 mini's....any suggestions?
I think I'll run 7x12gauge speaker cables (home run to equip closet). This should allow me complete flexibility with wiring in series or parallel by patching within the equipment closet.....

bddc5118.jpg
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post #116 of 347
6/10/12 at 8:42am
I had 4 Buttkickers, I ran one 12 AWG feed from a Buttkicker BK1000 amp, and wired 2 pairs in series, and then connected the pairs in parallel. Worked great.
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post #117 of 347
6/10/12 at 9:43am
I would be interested in how you do this. I would like to hook-up 7 buttkickers too, but not sure how to do it.
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post #118 of 347
6/10/12 at 10:18am
Here is the Buttkicker config chart: http://thebuttkicker.com/buttkicker-configurations.htm

They recommend up to 4 buttkickers on one amp. So I would put4 on one amp and three on the other (requires at least 2 #12 AWG feeds, obviously). The 3-unit group would be wired in series, and the 4-unit group in series-parallel.
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post #119 of 347
6/21/12 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
I think I'll be going with the Behringer EPX400 to power the kickers.
Three in series on one channel (12 ohms).
Two pairs of series on the other channel (4 ohms).
I'll have to turn up the volume on the 12ohm channel to match the other.
If that doesn't give me enough power then I might have to buy a second amp.....we'll see.smile.gif
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post #120 of 347
7/10/12 at 11:54pm
Thread Starter 
Here's my first cut at the riser and stage dimensions. I hope this will be good enough for the carpet installer to determine amount of carpet needed. Next up, finalize my screen purchase and get schooled on installing GOM. Anyone know of an easy way to determine how much fabric I will need to order?

be5b0e6e.jpg
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