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McIntosh MX-121 - any thoughts? - Page 14

post #391 of 554
5/15/12 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

The 121's Pure Direct mode bypasses all digital processing, but I don't know if it can take an analog input and avoid all A/Ds and D/As entirely. Whaddyathink, Kal? Do these Macs have a true analog-only mode?

Dunno. I would have only 2nd or 3rd hand speculations.
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post #392 of 554
5/15/12 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

Mac-to-121 is the best scenario, as I mentioned, and that's what I use, but for quick and easy listening I needed to understand all that Airplay was doing. My post which follows the one you quoted answered those questions.

Seen that and not all the info is 100% correct or will change soon, apple is changing this all the time. Now if you use it inside the 121 changes are it won't be updated much (again i assume its the bridgeCo card) but we expect several changes in the next few months where apple extends what airplay is able todo for audio, video and possibly 'transmitting' apps.

Not trying to be a smartass my goal is just to say its hard to say airplay can or will do x,y or z because it depends on sending node, receiving node and versions.

Daniel.

PS: i find airplay to a appletv1/2/3 all have their +/- (yes use them all) when hooked up to my avp/poa. I find the bridgeCo card kinda useless in most ways.
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post #393 of 554
5/15/12 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

Cool, congrats! I just did the same thing but got the 5 channel amp since I'm only running a 5.2 setup...

Congrats to you. I am only using 5 channels for the HT but I have a zone 2 for outside. Probably overkill for outside but it also gives me the option of 7.1 in the future.
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post #394 of 554
5/15/12 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbig View Post

Congrats to you. I am only using 5 channels for the HT but I have a zone 2 for outside. Probably overkill for outside but it also gives me the option of 7.1 in the future.

Well, for the same price might as well get the 7 channel one. I actually like the look of the newer amp, even though its not the traditional Mac look. I'd like to see one in person.
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post #395 of 554
5/15/12 at 5:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Seen that and not all the info is 100% correct or will change soon, apple is changing this all the time.

Which info isn't correct? And what will change soon? I'm looking for the status quo, not speculation about future upgrades.

It's shaping up that iTunes will soon offer high-resolution audio (a waste of bandwidth and HDD space), so it's not surprising that they'd also raise the ceiling for Airplay. I've heard nothing concrete, however.
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post #396 of 554
5/15/12 at 5:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Dunno. I would have only 2nd or 3rd hand speculations.

I wish the manual was more clear about this. I'm now curious.

The convertors are great, so I don't much care what the answer is, but I'd still like to know.
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post #397 of 554
5/15/12 at 5:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

I wish the manual was more clear about this. I'm now curious.

Most manuals are obscure on this point. For example, you won't find mention of it in the MX150 manual and, typically, the Onkyo/Integra manuals have the words but express themselves poorly (intentionally?).
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post #398 of 554
5/16/12 at 4:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by elbig View Post

I just ordered the mx121 and the mc8207. I'm upgrading my home theatre. I am really looking forward to setting it up.

congrads elbig - you gotta let us know how it goes once you get it set up :>)
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post #399 of 554
5/16/12 at 1:24pm
Hi guys, I got my MX121 a month ago and the MC8207 this Saturday. I am extremely happy. Finally my Kappa 600 speakers have power enough to play as they are supposed to. I am a little interested in learning how mookie b made the manual adjustments. I am very happy with the Audyssey set-up but I could care for some more low frequency bass on the front L and R speakers. I cannot see that it is possible to adjust the EQ after an auto setup. Do you have any ideas on how to do this?
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post #400 of 554
5/16/12 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

Hi guys, I got my MX121 a month ago and the MC8207 this Saturday. I am extremely happy. Finally my Kappa 600 speakers have power enough to play as they are supposed to. I am a little interested in learning how mookie b made the manual adjustments. I am very happy with the Audyssey set-up but I could care for some more low frequency bass on the front L and R speakers. I cannot see that it is possible to adjust the EQ after an auto setup. Do you have any ideas on how to do this?

It's not in front of me, but when you go into manual isn't there a way to copy the base audyssey curve?

I didn't use audyssey at all so I'm not sure off hand...
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post #401 of 554
5/16/12 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

I am very happy with the Audyssey set-up but I could care for some more low frequency bass on the front L and R speakers. I cannot see that it is possible to adjust the EQ after an auto setup. Do you have any ideas on how to do this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mookie b View Post

It's not in front of me, but when you go into manual isn't there a way to copy the base audyssey curve?

If you copy the Audyssey curve into the manual EQ, you can boost the bass but that would cost you most of the subtlety of the Audyssey EQ since the manual GEQ is comparatively crude. OTOH, there might be an available bass tone control for the fronts or you might try raising the crossover for the fronts and boosting the sub.
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post #402 of 554
5/16/12 at 3:00pm
I go on large fronts and do not use the sub in stereo. What I would accomplish is more bass in stereo mode.
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post #403 of 554
5/16/12 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

I go on large fronts and do not use the sub in stereo. What I would accomplish is more bass in stereo mode.

Then your only real solution is finding the bass tone control option. See the bottom of page 34 in the manual.
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post #404 of 554
5/16/12 at 3:21pm
Thanks, it is already set to +6, however I think that the settings made by Audyssey are overriding the manual tone control. I'm more into trying to adjust the EQ as described on page 29, but I wanted to make an adjustment of the auto settings made by Audyssey. I think that mookie b are on the spot by copying the curves. I shall try that and se if it is possible for all channels.
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post #405 of 554
5/16/12 at 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

Thanks, it is already set to +6, however I think that the settings made by Audyssey are overriding the manual tone control. I'm more into trying to adjust the EQ as described on page 29, but I wanted to make an adjustment of the auto settings made by Audyssey. I think that mookie b are on the spot by copying the curves. I shall try that and se if it is possible for all channels.

Sure, it is possible to do that for any/all channels but, gad, you are already at +6dB and that's not enough?

As I said before, the manual EQ, even if "copied" from Audyssey, is a crude tool and cannot actually emulate Audyssey. For example, Audyssey can change not only the output level at many different frequencies, it can change/select those frequencies freely and it can adjust the "q" of those adjustments. The manual EQ has a very limited in that it consists of only 9 fixed frequencies which are distributed evenly over the spectrum with too few in the critical low end. It does not permit one to vary the choice of frequencies nor the very critical "q" of the filters. All it permits is the adjustment of level at those 9 frequencies but with undefined "q."

In fact, crude is generous; primitive might be more accurate. It is primarily useful for letting the user see something about what Audyssey is doing.
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post #406 of 554
5/18/12 at 2:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

Thanks, it is already set to +6, however I think that the settings made by Audyssey are overriding the manual tone control. I'm more into trying to adjust the EQ as described on page 29, but I wanted to make an adjustment of the auto settings made by Audyssey. I think that mookie b are on the spot by copying the curves. I shall try that and se if it is possible for all channels.

Turn of Audessy. Or at least change it to bypass L/R . Only use Audessy for movies. For stereo music it removes to much bass. Don't try to set it manually either. And for god sake don't crank it up to +6. Buy a cheap receiver if you want to use trebble and base. For these fine equipments it's sacrilege to use it. At this high level of hifi you don't need that.
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post #407 of 554
5/18/12 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

Turn of Audessy. Or at least change it to bypass L/R . Only use Audessy for movies. For stereo music it removes to much bass. Don't try to set it manually either. And for god sake don't crank it up to +6. Buy a cheap receiver if you want to use trebble and base. For these fine equipments it's sacrilege to use it. At this high level of hifi you don't need that.

It's my understanding that the Audyssey system analyzes the room and boosts where frequencies are shy and attenuates where they are excessive. Meaning that, in theory, it can't inherently have too much bass, it can only have what the room calls for. It's common for the average room to dip +6 db, and often more, calling for a +6 db boost.

Regarding the level of hi-fi: the quality of your listening environment is entirely separate from the quality of your equipment. Audyssey is mainly, though not exclusively, correcting for your room, not any deficiencies within your gear. (I realize that I've argued the opposite on this very thread - that ancillary gear plays a role in room correction, which is true - but, in general terms, this is Audyssey's job). The absolute best gear on this planet, or any others, will still be contorted and distorted by the response of your room.
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post #408 of 554
5/22/12 at 12:41pm
Thanks for all suggestions, I have now had the time to try out different settings. Audessy works perfect for movies and there is no lack of bass from the front L/R then.

What happens in stereo mode is above my understanding, but the bass correction goes to a level where you miss bass in certain kind of music. Could have to do with the fact that I have a 60 sqm larger room with concrete floor and walls. I have now tried out a manual EQ setting that works out fine in stereo.
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post #409 of 554
5/22/12 at 8:05pm
Thread Starter 
In my search to find a way to circumvent as much of OS-X's audio tampering as possible, I found Amarra, which is a plugin for iTunes. It has shown a lot of promise. The company is secretive about the "hows" and "whats" of this plugin, blanketed by some terribly pedestrian marketing, so I can't say exactly what it does, but in using the demo for several days I've noticed obvious improvements on three different systems. By comparison, iTunes withOUT Amarra is veiled and softer with a thinner sound stage. Turn it back on and you notice an immediate improvement. High frequencies are more refined. Bass is somewhat tighter.

The installation is simple and it lives behind iTunes so you won't know it's there.

I was familiar with the existence of this software a while ago but its price tag was insane. Today, the basic version is only $50. The full version is $190. There's a free 15-day demo. Here's a link to the basic version:

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_hifi.html

And the full version:

http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_player.html
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post #410 of 554
5/24/12 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweking View Post

Thanks for all suggestions, I have now had the time to try out different settings. Audessy works perfect for movies and there is no lack of bass from the front L/R then.

What happens in stereo mode is above my understanding, but the bass correction goes to a level where you miss bass in certain kind of music. Could have to do with the fact that I have a 60 sqm larger room with concrete floor and walls. I have now tried out a manual EQ setting that works out fine in stereo.

Are you sure that you are sending lfe to both main and subwoofer? Or only to subwoofer?

You should choose LFE in subwoofer mode. Not LFE+Main. LFE+MAIN means it sends both LFE + and Main speakers LFE to subwoofer. Not good if you have large frontspeakers.
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post #411 of 554
5/24/12 at 6:05am
I found one annoying thing with the web-interface. Something they probably missed and hoppefully can fix with a update.

You can't choose surround mode. All inputs are default set to auto, but I don't want auto for Airplay. Because auto chooses direct instead of stereo that I want. Because with stereo you can use audessy and tone control. So I tried to change surround mode using the web-interface but it's not there. Had to use the remotecontrol instead.
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post #412 of 554
5/24/12 at 5:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dancoh View Post

I found one annoying thing with the web-interface. Something they probably missed and hoppefully can fix with a update.

You can't choose surround mode. All inputs are default set to auto, but I don't want auto for Airplay. Because auto chooses direct instead of stereo that I want. Because with stereo you can use audessy and tone control. So I tried to change surround mode using the web-interface but it's not there. Had to use the remotecontrol instead.

Not all functions are repeated on the interface. It would be nice, however.

When you set a surround mode it should stick with that input, so once your Airplay input is set properly you can forget it. Is that not the case?
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post #413 of 554
5/26/12 at 2:11pm
I'm getting more and more frustrated with my MX121. I can't decide if I want to use Audessy. It makes such a big difference. Without Audessy it's more bass but at the same time it's not as clear. And I really like volume eq for movies it really makes the surrounds and the movie come alive, but it does something stange with the bass. It gets very in your face with volume eq. But then turning it off makes the movie plain and flat. Annoying! I hade Audessy on my old Denon but it was nothing like this. It just removed the worst bass.

And then there is something that has me worried. Listening to music or watching tv in stereo, my right front speaker is noticebly louder. The distance from my listening position is the same to both speakers. And Audessy set channel levels to -9.5 for left and -9.0 for right. But it's not until about -5.0 that I feel it being centered. I have used a SPL and left and right are exactly at the same DB level. But stil when it is in stereo right speaker is louder. Anyone else experienced this? I am begining to feel I found a bug or fault with my MX121.
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post #414 of 554
5/26/12 at 3:21pm
Dan,

I hate to suggest this, but when was the last time you had your hearing checked? Defects can sneak up on us since they're usually very gradual.

I trust you've eliminated some of the external causes of left/right balance problems like damaged speakers and wall reflections.

As for the bass response, have you done a "bass crawl" to optimize your subwoofer's position? The less work it has to do, the better Audyssey can do. And what level is Audyssey's subwoofer setting? If it's not near the center of its range -- about +/- 3db or so -- then it won't be able to apply its full correction when the volume is turned way up. In particular, if it's at about -11, it's at its maximum attenuation and you need to turn down the gain substantially on the sub itself. (25% or less of max is typical.)

Also, do you have Dyn Eq enabled? It's the modern equivalent of the ancient loudness control so that bass gets properly amplified at lower sound levels and attenuated at higher ones.

Edited to add: if all else fails, call your supplier. You might have a defective unit. If that's the case, I'm sure McIntosh would be anxious to make it right -- and find out where their QC failed.
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post #415 of 554
5/26/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Dan,

I hate to suggest this, but when was the last time you had your hearing checked? Defects can sneak up on us since they're usually very gradual.

I trust you've eliminated some of the external causes of left/right balance problems like damaged speakers and wall reflections.

As for the bass response, have you done a "bass crawl" to optimize your subwoofer's position? The less work it has to do, the better Audyssey can do. And what level is Audyssey's subwoofer setting? If it's not near the center of its range -- about +/- 3db or so -- then it won't be able to apply its full correction when the volume is turned way up. In particular, if it's at about -11, it's at its maximum attenuation and you need to turn down the gain substantially on the sub itself. (25% or less of max is typical.)

Also, do you have Dyn Eq enabled? It's the modern equivalent of the ancient loudness control so that bass gets properly amplified at lower sound levels and attenuated at higher ones.

Edited to add: if all else fails, call your supplier. You might have a defective unit. If that's the case, I'm sure McIntosh would be anxious to make it right -- and find out where their QC failed.

I would like to start with saying that I meant dyn eq not dyn volume. Dyn volume sucks. But dyn eq really makes everything jump alive. But makes the bass a bit to dominating at some soundtracks. Not all. Some movies sound terrific. Where others it's to much.

Regarding sub level you might be right. It is at -12 . The thing is, the volume on the sub is really low. It's at 25%. There's not much I can lower it. But I will try to change it and do a new calibration. Might help. Doing a "sub crawl" as you call it. Is not possible. I don't have a dedicated home theater. It's in my living room. This is why I have room correction.

Regarding my hearing it's absolutely fine . If I connect a regular stereo preamp with no Audessy or anything left, right is totally fine. No, it's something related to the MX121. Granted I am extremely sensitive to noises and the slightest disturbance. But this is more than that. And as I stated even if my ears are wrong a SPL is not. And it shows the exact level for both speakers at tone test. What I haven't done that I will do next is pop in a calibration DVD and check levels. To compare with MX121 built in tone test. Should be interesting.
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post #416 of 554
5/26/12 at 4:07pm
Well, Audyssey is almost as sensitive as you are to noise Is there any chance an air conditioner, refrigerator, passing car, or other noise source was present intermittently while the calibration was running? That could mess things up.
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post #417 of 554
5/26/12 at 4:14pm
Oh, and you did leave the room while it was running, I hope. A person blocking the sound getting to the microphone can mess things up, too.

Audyssey's sub setting being at -12 means that it is pegged. You do need to turn down the sub's gain some more.
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post #418 of 554
5/27/12 at 10:49am
Thread Starter 
There are different schools of thought. Some believe that if you're going to be in the room while listening you should be in the room and as close to the sweet spot as possible when calibrating. Others believe that the mic cannot be placed properly with a body near it.

I've calibrated while in and also while out of the room and haven't noticed any appreciable difference in 2-channel systems where the speakers are straight in front. In surround environments, you'll very likely be in the way of the rears and you'll affect their response. In surround studios where the rear monitors are raised, we place people where they're likely to be in a session and then calibrate. That's real-world.
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post #419 of 554
5/27/12 at 10:50am
Thread Starter 
I hope you get it sorted out, dancoh. Has your dealer been helpful? It's what they're there for.
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post #420 of 554
5/28/12 at 12:55pm
Just to give you my readings for comparison: FL -7db, C -10.5db, FR -5db, SL -4.5 and SR -4.5 and finally the sub -10.5db. The parameter check gives almost exact distances to my main listening position. I understand the compensation for the front right since there is a curtain and a book shelf beside the speaker. I would say that it has made a perfect set-up form surround sound. My problem is as earlier described the bass in stereo.
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