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ANSI Contrast Ratio of VW95 / RS55(X70) - Page 6

post #151 of 320
12/30/12 at 2:37pm
I want a projector with 1,000,000:1 on/off and 1:1 ANSI. I'm happy.

Later Gators :P
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post #152 of 320
12/30/12 at 2:38pm
For as often as you post you seem too far sensitive to being questioned....nobody is attacking you but when you make questionable or erroneous statements you should expect some blowback.

I am at a loss as to how I turn on a light in my room but not have it hit my screen. I don't illuminate flashlights or other directional light sources in such a manner as to have them only shine on the back wall. Besides, even if I did it would increase the ambient light level which will hurt perceived on/off.

And yes, I realize a .1 lumen light source may not affect the reading off the screen by .1 lumen but some portion of it does - if it makes you feel any better make up your own numbers and you'll still see that on/off is still affected.

I think this has run its course.....nothing more to be gained here....
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post #153 of 320
12/30/12 at 2:40pm
Not sensitive to be questioned, but when it starts out as:

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm laughing not sensitive, just defending myself :P

It is a tiny tiny tiny fractional portion of those absurdly posted numbers, unless you shine the light towards the screen. It is far less than those measurements, more like 1/100 to maybe 1/1000th of that.

In many theater setups you get lighting shining in or away from the screen that is absorbed, or going out the back hitting a black wall, the amount of backwash in a 30-40 foot room is very minimal if at all. There is some on/off pollution, but not much (not even sure if it can be measured). ANSI in this case is affected exponentially more than Native on/off, and in most setups it is if you measure. So no not really seeing how I am totally wrong, possibly gave a poor explanation and was wrong when I said it doesn't affect it at all (ok), this was commonly stated by many though. Some light is going to hit back, fair enough, but whatever...
Edited by coderguy - 12/30/12 at 2:54pm
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post #154 of 320
12/30/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

ok, have fun..
I just gave an example, you are saying if you turn the lights on and the light is hitting the screen, it can't hit the screen, I've always known that. You can pretend I didn't know that, to try to make me look like I have no idea what I'm talking about, or I can go dig up 100+ posts on contrast in this forum I've already made. The fact is, I've posted 100's of times in here to tell people DON'T let light hit the screen, it ruins all contrast, no kidding. Yah I misspoke in the heat of the moment, earlier, but it was self-contradicted throughout my other posts when I have said many times "when even light is NOT hitting the screen". The absorption factor is so low in a halfway decent room from light washback that the on/off on the screen isn't changed much due to dispersion and absorption.
I also noted reflections ruins screen contrast, which is the same darn thing as if you were to shine a light on the screen (this is a big duh that goes out to everyone).
So nothing has really changed in my opinion, other than I got entangled in my own words trying to defend myself from 5 people attacking me at once. This was originally about ANSI contrast = intrascene contrast ("no it does not"), but was later changed to "wait for coderguy in his long explanations to make one slip-up then attack".
I could care less to be honest, argument isn't structured properly.

No, this was originally about you saying ANSI contrast is insignificate to picturequality and on/off is much more important, and I have never attacked you I only claim that you are wrong with your statements about ANSI contrast.
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post #155 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:02pm
We disagree politely then, I still believe that, even though ANSI likely has a small effect to POP in some scenes (always acknowledged that), the darker blacks are more important. That said, this doesn't mean I believe JVC is better than a Sony with higher ANSI, I just don't think we should pay much attention to ANSI.

Anyhow, I'm not even absolutely sure of how to offset the on/off ratio basing it from the dispersion of light, but obviously if you have a small amount of ambient light being absorbed away from the screen, you certainly aren't polluting much other than the ANSI pollution.
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post #156 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It is a tiny tiny tiny fractional portion of those absurdly posted numbers, unless you shine the light towards the screen. It is far less than those measurements, more like 1/100 to maybe 1/1000th of that.
Whatever man....it was a f**king example to illustrate a point.
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post #157 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:03pm
OK, fair enough...
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post #158 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We disagree politely then, I still believe that, even though ANSI likely has a small effect to POP in some scenes (always acknowledged that), the darker blacks are more important. That said, this doesn't mean I believe JVC is better than a Sony with higher ANSI, I just don't think we should pay much attention to ANSI.
Anyhow, I'm not even absolutely sure of how to offset the on/off ratio basing it from the dispersion of light, but obviously if you have a small amount of ambient light being absorbed away from the screen, you certainly aren't polluting much other than the ANSI pollution.

Ok, we agree that both on/off and ANSI contrast is important factor to produce a good picture?smile.gif
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post #159 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I want a projector with 1,000,000:1 on/off and 1:1 ANSI. I'm happy.
Later Gators :P

But with this statement you would probarbly disagree with me, with these numbers the projector would not give a good picture that´s for sure.
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post #160 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:09pm
It was a joke, I was waiting to see if anyone would take that bait, actually those numbers are impossible to come from any display device.
The device would have to be broken eek.gif

It would be a plain white screen with no image on it. One that could only turn on all white, then turn off all black (funny guys).
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post #161 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

No, this was originally about you saying ANSI contrast is insignificate to picturequality and on/off is much more important, and I have never attacked you I only claim that you are wrong with your statements about ANSI contrast.
I think you and I are in agreement but frankly now I'm confused as to who said what when where and how....rolleyes.gif

Personally I'd like a projector with high on/off CR and high ANSI CR. The first year I had my projector I had some velvet wall and ceiling treatment (about 4' from the velvet covered screen wall) and then I installed a lot more velvet. What a HUGE difference in pop. On/Off didn't change but ANSI sure did. I've also seen more pop from my x55 than I got from my RS55 even though the RS55 has more on/off CR. The reason is because ANSI CR did improve in this years JVC's. So IMO both are important......that said if I could only have one I'd take high on/off and that's sort of what we get with a JVC (I guess I'd have a DLP if I favored ANSI over on/off).
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post #162 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:18pm
You agree with him even though he said the opposite, he prefers the ANSI contrast of the Sony over the JVC.
That's fine, as it is purely a personal preference.

The actual original point was about that we do not have a comparable or reliable way to go by ANSI measurements as translated by eyes non-subjectively to know whether or not ANSI contrast increases can be seen to what degree at what points. By eye though, it is easier to judge individually for a person to know how much On/Off matters, more than how much ANSI matters. Anyhow, I own the RS-45, not sure what the ANSI is, guessing 300:1, so certainly not that much different than the Sony;s that were in my price range at the time (hw30).

Then it was said that ANSI always = intrascene unless measuring absolute black, this was incorrect because ANSI only = intrascene on a checkerboard (wow this was beat to death by me, sorry but this was what spawned the original arguments). Then I stated native on/off is not really affected unless light hits the screen directly, but I did make an error in how I explained that point, so I got a little bashing going on.

Time for the ADVIL.
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post #163 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:23pm
even after my light treatment I am not seeing any obvious difference between the 4810 and the RS55 in a direct A/B setup. Maybe it's because i'm running at -11 and the ANSI goes down when the iris is closed. I know the #'s that were measured, it wasn't far off the 200 # that Andreas commented on . This isn't a day night / difference than what the RS55 / X70 measured. (at least with a 3/4 closed iris)

The irony is, the HW50 imo had more 'pop' than both JVC's. this is likely why it's getting nearly unanimous top shelf reviews, it looks great out of the box. I don't know if it's because it has higher ANSI, it certainly doesn't have higher on/off. It's a 'sum of the parts' type equation I can't attribute to a single feature / measurement.

If Sony upgraded the VW95 with all the HW50 ugprades (better 3D, brighter 3D, RC, etc) that would likely have been my '1 projector' solution this year. Until then, I continue to run the dual setup until something better (at this price point) pops up next year.
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post #164 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It was a joke, I was waiting to see if anyone would take that bait, actually those numbers are impossible to come from any display device.
The device would have to be broken eek.gif
It would be a plain white screen with no image on it. One that could only turn on all white, then turn off all black (funny guys).

I know that!rolleyes.gif
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post #165 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:31pm
I know just sharing the Advil!
Peace...

The funny thing is I debated on selling the RS-45 to get the Sony hw50, because I needed an improvement in ANSI contrast.
Actually I did debate on it, because I wanted the 3D, but instead got the Benq w7000 because that way I get a boost in ANSI and get to keep to keep my JVC on/off.
No actually, I bought the Benq because I wanted 3D. So confusing today, isn't it.
Edited by coderguy - 12/30/12 at 5:24pm
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post #166 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You agree with him even though he said the opposite, he prefers the ANSI contrast of the Sony over the JVC..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I think you and I are in agreement but frankly now I'm confused as to who said what when where and how....rolleyes.gif
Now who is misreading?
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post #167 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:35pm
Everyone... but I'm almost out of advil.
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post #168 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I think you and I are in agreement but frankly now I'm confused as to who said what when where and how....rolleyes.gif
Personally I'd like a projector with high on/off CR and high ANSI CR. The first year I had my projector I had some velvet wall and ceiling treatment (about 4' from the velvet covered screen wall) and then I installed a lot more velvet. What a HUGE difference in pop. On/Off didn't change but ANSI sure did. I've also seen more pop from my x55 than I got from my RS55 even though the RS55 has more on/off CR. The reason is because ANSI CR did improve in this years JVC's. So IMO both are important......that said if I could only have one I'd take high on/off and that's sort of what we get with a JVC (I guess I'd have a DLP if I favored ANSI over on/off).

Yes we agree even though I prefer Sonys combination of ok on/off and higher ANSI than JVC excellent on/off and lower ANSI.

And I have never said the JVC X55 produces a bad picture(I tested it just a few weeks ago and gave it 5/6 on the dice), I would prefer it over any DLP any day.
Edited by Andreas21 - 12/30/12 at 3:45pm
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post #169 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

even after my light treatment I am not seeing any obvious difference between the 4810 and the RS55 in a direct A/B setup. Maybe it's because i'm running at -11 and the ANSI goes down when the iris is closed. I know the #'s that were measured, it wasn't far off the 200 # that Andreas commented on . This isn't a day night / difference than what the RS55 / X70 measured. (at least with a 3/4 closed iris)
The irony is, the HW50 imo had more 'pop' than both JVC's. this is likely why it's getting nearly unanimous top shelf reviews, it looks great out of the box. I don't know if it's because it has higher ANSI, it certainly doesn't have higher on/off. It's a 'sum of the parts' type equation I can't attribute to a single feature / measurement.
If Sony upgraded the VW95 with all the HW50 ugprades (better 3D, brighter 3D, RC, etc) that would likely have been my '1 projector' solution this year. Until then, I continue to run the dual setup until something better (at this price point) pops up next year.
FYI, both my RS55 and my x55 had iris settings of -10.
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post #170 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

even after my light treatment I am not seeing any obvious difference between the 4810 and the RS55 in a direct A/B setup. Maybe it's because i'm running at -11 and the ANSI goes down when the iris is closed. I know the #'s that were measured, it wasn't far off the 200 # that Andreas commented on . This isn't a day night / difference than what the RS55 / X70 measured. (at least with a 3/4 closed iris)
The irony is, the HW50 imo had more 'pop' than both JVC's. this is likely why it's getting nearly unanimous top shelf reviews, it looks great out of the box. I don't know if it's because it has higher ANSI, it certainly doesn't have higher on/off. It's a 'sum of the parts' type equation I can't attribute to a single feature / measurement.
If Sony upgraded the VW95 with all the HW50 ugprades (better 3D, brighter 3D, RC, etc) that would likely have been my '1 projector' solution this year. Until then, I continue to run the dual setup until something better (at this price point) pops up next year.

I tested the X55 side by side against the HW50 (have one myself in the childrens HT) and found it to have more "pop" than the JVC and the blacklevel was not so far away, and would prefer the Sony over the X55, but it was a close race.
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post #171 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

Yes we agree even though I prefer Sonys combination of ok on/off and gigher ANSI than JVC excellent on7off and lower ANSI.
And I have never said the JVC X55 produces a bad picture(I tested it just a few weeks ago ang gave it 5/6 on the dice), I would prefer it over any DLP any day.
I really hope the Sony 95ES replacement is JVC killer.....I'm tired of getting mediocre convergence and colorspaces that cannot be corrected.
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post #172 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I really hope the Sony 95ES replacement is JVC killer.....I'm tired of getting mediocre convergence and colorspaces that cannot be corrected.

I think it will be!smile.gif

And I look forward to take a look at it!
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post #173 of 320
12/30/12 at 3:55pm
Although room reflections affect ANSI CR to a much greater degree than On/Off CR, On/Off CR is affected by room reflections as well unless the off state is absolutely no light(which Digital can do that?)

Simply take the On/Off readings two ways and compare. One with the meter facing the projector lens, the other facing the screen. I bet the reading taken facing the lens will yeild a greater On/Off CR result.
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post #174 of 320
12/30/12 at 4:24pm
I have a JVC RS20 in a room where the rear wall is a dark slate grey as well as a rectangle painted on the ceiling to minimise reflections.

When the projector is fed a 0 ire signal and one stands by the screen and views the back wall where the projector is, one can see the wall quite clearly, this light is reflecting back to the screen raising the black floor. Block the lens completely and the back wall cannot be seen, (fully dark room)
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post #175 of 320
12/30/12 at 4:47pm
I use 2 HP screens!

One 2.4 and the other 2.8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Ncvn_Qtdg


At 0 IRE ones eyes iris/s open up fully, at 100 IRE close fully making the blacks blacker!

The eyes iris effect on black levels is quite amazing, during the credits bring up ones hands to block the light off the letters from directly entering the eyes and the black sourounding area gets less dark within a second and vise versa.
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post #176 of 320
12/30/12 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post

I think it will be!smile.gif
And I look forward to take a look at it!



Are you sure about a version 2 off the 95ES ? if yes, from whom/where ? ( if I may ask !? smile.gif )

I heard that there is NOT coming a V2 off the 95ES ( from Sony ) - sadly, because like Z10K, I think it would be a no. 1 allround projector ( with RC, 1700 lumens and even lesser crosstalk in 3D cool.gif ), anyway absolutly not just around the corner, but maybe they changed their mind ?

any info´s about it at CES ? ( if it is coming soon, it should be there )


dj
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post #177 of 320
12/30/12 at 5:49pm
smile.gif


Lets have some fun wink.gif


How big a visible difference is there, when you go from a on /off CR say....5000:1 to 10000:1 ?
or from 10000 - 20000:1 ?

And what about from 40000 to 80000 ( here probely only the highend JVC model owners can say something sensible )

dj
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post #178 of 320
12/30/12 at 5:52pm
Probably, I dont know about 40,000 to 80,000:1. Since the way our eyes interpret light is not linear, it is hard to say without me testing it. Never had a projector that can go that high. I do have a 1,500:1 projector here and a 35,000:1 projector here, and I can say that it's huge at that point smile.gif

I remember the Epson 5010, this is what 5000:1 native on/off, and 18,000:1 to 25,000:1 dynamic (depending on who's measurements you believe), I think still a nice bit of difference between the Epson and JVC but certainly not tremendous compared to 1,500:1 to 35,000:1.
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post #179 of 320
12/30/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It has always been said that it raises both the black and white floor by the same amount in relativeness. I know earlier someone tried to show some math to just add a number to the top and bottom fL to show that is how light is absorbed when it is reflected back evenly (hence to show the contrast can change unevenly), but I do not know (Sorry but I can't imagine it being that simple). I just agreed and tried to back-talk around my opinion, because people were getting quite nasty to me, but now I am just saying I don't know either way. At least we know for sure that ANSI contrast can be affected quite easily, but that was never disputed.
Now I will have to measure it, because there are many people claiming the reverse of what was previously thought to be standard contrast knowledge. I am still not convinced that if a small amount of even reflecting light is picked up, that it will have much effect to the native on/off contrast ratio, even if it did raise the black floor slightly. If you are right, there are MANY MANY people that have been wrong in this forum for years. It is not because of my own knowledge that I have doubts, it is because so many others have said the same thing.
I have black curtains on my walls, I can remove them and measure both ways. There are white walls underneath. I will post back next weekend (have to work tomorrow).

Look forward to you're results.

I don't think a screen(alone)will affect the On/Off ratio, sure with the HP the black level will be raised but so will the white level by the same proportion, thus the ratio will remain the same.

But I strongly feel room reflections getting back to the screen will raise the black floor deminishing the On/Off ratio. A good case for room light absorbtion treatment.

When instrument measuring ANSI or On/Off the eyes iris action is not generally considered. I find a bright image frame in mixed image scenes(with the HP), will close the eyes iris making black levels blacker, while appearing to keep the brights bright and providing more 'POP' and depth as in the credits example. With a less bright image this is effect is reduced as the eyes iris opens up somewhat and reduces the perception of the darker black level perceived in the previous example.
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post #180 of 320
12/30/12 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

smile.gif
Lets have some fun wink.gif
How big a visible difference is there, when you go from a on /off CR say....5000:1 to 10000:1 ?
or from 10000 - 20000:1 ?
And what about from 40000 to 80000 ( here probely only the highend JVC model owners can say something sensible )
dj


This a good one.

My RS20 developed an optical block failure, and was replaced tith a RS35 optical engine. I use HP screens(had one then) and ran the iris at -15. The 50k:1 vs 70k+:1 yielded a far more dynamic picture, same globe. Sure it was a comparison by memory but the difference was quite stunning and obvious.
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