We even buy a Pre/Pro? - Page 2

For the average to above average home theater enthusiast, I just don't think anything other than a decent receiver is needed. Unless you're driving really inefficient speakers or have a 2,000 square-foot theater in your house, I just don't see the point. I have a moderate sized living room with high, vaulted ceilings. I've owned a Denon 4810, Denon 3310, Yamaha RX-A2000, Onkyo 705, Onkyo 809 and currently own a Pioneer SC-35. I run two Focal tower speakers, a Focal center channel and two Focal bookshelf speakers in the rear and all of those receivers rocked the speakers, clear and freaking loud. I can turn them up to deafening, uncomfortable levels and still have room to go higher. The sound stays clean and crisp, none of the receivers have ever shut down or gotten hot, other than the 705, which Onkyo has always been known for on older models. But, each of these receivers slammed hard. I just can't imagine anyone other than someone with a HUGE room or inefficient speakers needing a huge amp. With how much more room I have to go on volume, I could easily rock a living room or theater room tiwce the size that I do now. idk....

That's definitely a different scenario as it's a different digital to analog stage. Seems odd there's such a difference in the DAC stages that the soundstage is affected.

As I recall (and I may be confused,) there was a theory that the soundstage perception is tied into some high frequency information. So if one method was preserving high frequency information in the signal, and the other was losing it, that seems like a possible explanation. I would hope DAC stages are better designed than to lose HF because of the (now) high bit rates possible in modern digital audio.

commsysman: Have you looked at the Marantz SR7005 - from what I understand it's essentially the same thing as the AV7005, just adds amplifiers. I have no idea how it performs on a bench. Hit the link in my signature, there's a few receivers in there that are under $2000 that meet their goals (or are very close). Sony STR-DA4600ES is a prime example; but as M Code points out - Sony has forced the distribution channel to change for that product (you can't buy it online, and for $1500 you can pick up an outboard amplifier and AVR; see the rub?). ::EDIT - Found the SR7005 reviewed: http://www.hometheater.com/content/m...-labs-measures and here's the AV7005 and MM7055: http://www.hometheater.com/content/m...-labs-measures - not a "big" difference in 5ch mode, harder to compare 7ch mode (the AV7005 solution will add another amplifier, while the SR7005 has to draw even more up from its power supply - it manages 75x7 though).

As far as "why do we need separates" or "pre/pros" - I mostly agree with the separate amplifier argument, but I don't agree with needing an SSP to drive it. Denon (and formerly Yamaha) makes a few receivers that will absolutely deliver the sun, moon, and stars - they also happen to cost many thousands of dollars (the AVR-5308, for example). You can buy a much more robust five-channel amplifier and AVR (or SSP, I guess) for the same price, get more power, and so on. At a point there's a "price break."

Regarding over-priced SSPs; I think it's simply because "they" know that someone out there will pay for it. Expensive flagship AVRs fit into that same realm as far as I'm concerned (honestly, $40,000 for a Levinson processor? $6000 for a Denon receiver? Neither of them really *does* anything revolutionary).

The only reason I would think buying a pre/pro over a receiver would be for balanced pre-outs...something that would help alot pairing with power amps as they tend to pick up AC line noise quite easily.

What if your front three had an MSRP of $17K and let's say for the heck of it they could be handled powerwise via an AVR? Would you? Would you be interested in stereo performance? Or are they all the same?

Rick

Wait, are you asking basically "if the speakers are expensive" (ignoring any specs, just "expensive" (and I assume you're correlating this "expensive" with "high quality")) would separates come into the equation? That's illogical. There's plenty of expensive speakers that can be driven by less-than-extreme amplification. Klipsch is the first example that comes to mind.

You can find last years Integra 80.2 or Onkyo 5508 for about the same price as a new Marantz and they do come with the latest Audyssy xt32. If you want to look at the latest Integra, the 80.3 is excellent for about another $800

Feature wise, the best pre is using the pre-outs on a denon 4311ci. At least for home theater. It can do 11.2 with a 2 channel or more external amp used to drive the front 2,3,5,... 11. It comes with audyssey xt32 and dual sub calibration.

Actually I would say it's tied with the Onkyo 3009/5009. But you can get it on sale for $1300 from time to time. The Onkyo's never seem to go on sale.

I don't have an opinion on how it performs sound wise as a pre.

The primary reason pre's cost so much is that with modern day AVR's the pre portion is way more expensive than the amp portion. When you add everything up including licensing costs, the amp is typically only 10-20% of the final production cost. I don't think low volume has too much of an effect. At least with Onkyo and Marantz since they use the same components as the AVR's and I would guess they're made on the same assembly lines.

I bought a Onkyo CD player back in, I think 1985. I bought it from Circuit city because it sounded better than everything else they had. I had read and was told that all CD players sound the same since it's all digital, bla bla bla...

I purchased by first DVD player in 1999. I thought CD's would sound great on it since it was basically a very high end CD player at it's heart. I was wrong. The onkyo blew it away. Since then, I've bought maybe 5 dvd players and 3 blu-ray players. None of them sound as good as the Onkyo I bought 26 years ago. I've learned to trust my own ears over what anyone says or writes. I still use the Onkyo on my main sound setup. It doesn't have a remote, but I don't mind pushing the buttons on the front. It sounds so much better than anything else I've owned. I don't know why and I don't really care.

Question. If 2 different CDP units are outputting different voltage how could they possibly sound the same? How do you compare CDPs? If it is just doing listening comparisons then how can you tell which one truly sounds better?

price to performance, hard to beat an onkyo 885/886 pre/pro.

That's a heckova lot of models all within just a few years. Considering these things should last 5-10 years, surely you cant have really been happy with any of them?

You can adjust the volume on the amp.


Strictly a judgement call. There's no right or wrong. You pick the one you like better.

I always get a kick out of reviewers talking about the soundstage of a recording that was done in a studio where there was no acoustic environment because the musicians were in isolated booths wearing headphones.

There can't be a "soundstage" unless the recording was done in an environment where the natural echoes of the sound environment are captured in a way that allows the ears to pick up on the location and sound of everything.

If you want to hear some really fine examples of great recorded ambiance that allows the musicians and the environment to be reproduced well, get any of the recordings done by the OPUS3 company in Sweden. They are all just friggginn wonderful...lol.

Another one that was done in a studio, but very nicely so you do get the feeling of the environment and the musicians in it, is the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Will the Circle Be Unbroken-Volume 2".

To hear the original soundstage, anyway, the original recording has to be miked right and recorded right and in a minimalist way, with little or no remixing that confuses microdynamics and acoustical cues from the recording environment.

At least 90% of recordings don't have it because the recording was not done in a way that preserves the acoustic information needed to bring it back to life.

And, given a recording that has the information on it, you still need very good quality sound equipment to bring it back to life.

Get the current model Marantz AV7005 from Audio Advisor for $1599. They can tell you any details you want to know on it.

On the AA website, find the processor and click on FEATURES and look at the Audessy details first.

If the Audessy it has does a good job, do you really give a damn what month it came out?

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I do have separate amps for my speakers so output power is not a concern.

I would consider my hometheater middle to upper end. Paradigm Studio speakers, SVS and Elemental subs, Plasma and a Projector.

So a quick search of Amazon finds the Marantz AV7005. And also a Pioneer elite receiver for the same money. I have looked at the Marantz and struggled because it is last years model ect. somebody mentioned the Audessy isn't the latest ect..


2 HDMI outputs
HD audio
Room EQ of some sort

I worked for a dealer, got a lot of them for free or next to nothing. I really can't say anything bad about any of them. The only real difference in each of them would be features or little bells and whistles and some minor power differences. I'd get them for ridiculously cheap, use them for a month or two, throw them up on craigslist and make a ridiculous profit and get another one. Since I'd get them for so cheap, it was fun to get to try every brand and play around with them. I didn't mind always swapping them out because I never had much money into them. I got the Denon 4810 for free (MSRP of $3,000). I put that up on craigslist and got $1,500 for it within 2 days. Sadly, the business I worked for ended up closing and my last model was the Pioneer, so that's what I'm currently running and it's a great, beefy little receiver!

!!

Incorrect...
The most expensive component within an AVR is the power transformer, as the power supply voltage/current capability required for a 7, 9 or 11 channel AVR is far higher than that for a Pre-Amp controller. Additionally other sections of high cost within the AVR is the heat sinking & amplifier components including output devices required for a multi-channel amplifier section.
The below list should help you to better understand the factory FOB cost structure of a typical AVR selling for $499-599(SRP):
1. Power transformer 15%
2. Power supply caps 5%
3. Heat sink material 5%
4. Amplifier components including devices 9%
5. Chassis metalworks, top cover 5%
6. Controller & PCB 5%
7. Video processor/HDMI & PCB 8%
8. Audio processor & PCB 5%
9. Front panel display, controls & PCB 5%
10. Royalties 8%
11. Other components 6%
12. Factory overhead/profit 24%

The above information comes directly from a BOM (Bill of Materials) for a major name brand AVR often mentioned on this site. The total % of the power supply, amplifier components, heat sinks is 34%.. And if one calculated just the this portion without the factory overhead/profit and royalties the % to total of the power supply + amplifier components + heat sinks is 50% of the AVR's component costs..

Just my $0.02..

AH HA HA!!! Eh, they had been in trouble for the last few years. Things didn't always operate that way. But, once the writing was on the wall for the last year or so, they didn't care, and so that's why the stuff came to employees so cheap.

If an AVR could handle the front three easily (high sensitivity) I see no reason why to go with a dedicated power amplifier. I think this is irrespective of speaker price...

And I picked the lesser of two evils, a high powered AVR--the Yamaha RX-Z11, which according to hometheater.com puts out 160W x 7 at clipping.

Of course. One has to choose the right recordings to permit useful comment.

I don't question the cost % breakdown, but I think attributing the entire cost of the power supply and heatsinks to the amplifier section is stretching your argument. If you add up the cost of the pre sections alone, it adds up to 31% while the amplifier boards cost 9%. I was referring to the cost of the amp boards, not everything required to power and cool the AVR .

Would you mind auditioning a 4311 and let me know when you put it on craigslist?

I was going to argue the first statement, but since you proved it wrong yourself by referencing "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" (a good friend was one of the engineers on that mix) I will cut you some slack.

Talented sound engineers can create magic. Its too bad many studios don't have them.

Why cant their be a $400 pre/pro?

Take for example a Denon AVR-1712 that MSRP's at $399, retain all features but simply remove the amp section and add preouts. I bet it would sound great as a preamp, and it would fool many if not most in a double blind test with a $1500 pre/pro. The 1712 is kind of an extreme example, but perform even simpler surgery on a Denon 3312 and you could have one heck of a pre/pro for less than $1000.

Why cant this be done? How does subtracting components make something more expensive?

Because the market is so small that the cost of maintaining an additional SKU is considerable.

If Denon came out with a pre/pro similar to the 3312 for $899 I think it would sell pretty good. Companies like Outlaw, Emotiva and anyone else that makes decent low priced amps would filling orders like crazy.

Mebbe but, if their market research/analysis indicated this, don't you think someone (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc) would do it?

Companies don't go by " I think it would sell pretty good." They'd be out of business in short order.

You need to demonstrate a profitable market before you enter it.

The 3312 already performs fine as a pre/pro. The denon 4311 blows away the marantz av7005 and sr7005 with external amps connected. I only connect massive amps to all 11.2 channels with xt32 and everything else I want. I and 99% of the non-pro market has no need for xlr connections. All this for $300 less than the Marantz. By the way denon and marantz use 99% the same parts except the front face plate. I even bought a yamaha receiver last year for $400 that had full preamp (single pin) in and out (867). That thing works great as a pre/pro. I can convert rca to xlr and boost the preamp signal for dirt cheap and make any pro amp work with any mainstream receiver that has pre out.