Playing CD quality music from a computer

I'm skeptical that WMP is actually the problem, at least generally. If you'd like to continue using it, ensure that all of the dynamic range/EQ enhancements are disabled (some of them can do very odd things), and ensure you're using the latest version of WMP. You didn't provide any information about what you're actually using, hardware wise, from your computer - nor did you mention which version of Windows you have. That might help.

The HDA card should be beyond suitable - the only "issue" (if you want to call it that) is Windows XP and kmixer; Vista and 7 are free from that (I'm skeptical on the actual audibility of the SRC though). foobar2000 is not free of this either; it's part of Windows (unless you're using an ASIO solution).

Basically, my point is, there should not be "static" or other problems - it should be perfect. Unless something is configured wrong, or broken, or the input files are garbage.

Forget the sound card...are you driving those beautiful Maggies with the Onkyo? Get a nice outboard amp with some current for those things, man!!

You need to tweak your OS:

1. If the HDA has native ASIO/ASIO 2 drivers use them with J River Media Center (This is not a free product) or the like. Skip K Mixer ENTIRELY (yuck!)

2. Set XP's processor performance for background tasks

3. Use MSCONFIG (Start Menu->Run->MSCONFIG) and turn off all non essential services and start up items

4. If you can, and this is a dedicated PC for audio only (no pok(h)er sites and the such). Uninstall the Antivirus and kill any software firewalls.

Download and run DPC latency checker. Even on my modest Brazos based system I am holding steady at ~170.

Not to stir up a hornet's nest, but I find this advice to be potentially very destructive - especially the suggestion to remove the antivirus software. I'm sure you've got some "reason" about how that will improve the sound quality - spare me - there's no good justification to run a networked system that naked.

No nest to stir up. I run my 2.0 system that way. I initially set and tweak everything out. Files sit on a server else where and my upstream firewall has AV inbuilt.

Additionally the final working and tweaked system is imaged with Acronis. If I ever had a problem I am a simple image away.

AV software can be very heavy handed, especially the real-time scan, you can always add an exclusion (IF it supports file / folder exclusions that is). While I'm not recommending anyone exceed their technical competency I can also say I have an HTPC machine for the last 8 years (first XP MCE and now Win7) that I have ran w/o AV and never been compromised.

For my use the computer is a device that does one thing. The log in accounts are all restricted access. No admin priv's for normal usage, just installing updated apps etc...

98% of all Windows exploits are successful because accounts are administrative accounts. Windows does have some flaws but the biggest by far is the human in front of it with an administrator account.

Everybody is welcome to their opinion on the matter. If you don't have the chops by all means run with A/V and a Firewall.

I can agree with basically everything you've said here in terms of usage and problems. I'm still curious as to why you'd dump the AV application - are these machines quite dated by chance?

The HTPC is based on a Sempron 140 and 2GB RAM. The 2.0 is AMD Brazos E350.

They don't serve a critical need (servers of websites / email and such), I have their initial tweaked state imaged, I run them with restricted privilege accounts, you don't need a software firewall if you have a hardware firewall. They aren't multi/general purpose machines.

I can only speak from my experience and tell people that they shouldn't exceed their technical competency and expect good results. But we are all here to learn and share.

Your point is correct. Jinkuku tends to get his information from recording/audio editing forums where stuff like he said matters because you can loose capture data if latency becomes high or unpredictable. For playback, if one is not hearing audio glitches, the advice he gives is not merited. Playback apps as a rule, buffer a lot more data and hence, it is rare to hear a glitch, if at all. And if they glitch, the world won't come to an end whereas getting infected with a virus that then spreads to other systems in your home, including those audio shares getting deleted or corrupted, might .

Further, a firewall won't prevent you from bringing files over to your audio server using thumb drives, or stopping it from infecting other machines in your home where the firewall likely is not filtering anything. The type of firewall most people have is built into their router and has no anti-virus capabilities.

Yes, it is absolutely possible to run a machine without anti-virus protection. I have done this for 30 years including the machine I am typing on. To do that you need to recognize all signs of danger and that can be challenging. Exploits can hide in so many places. One typo to go and get a driver for your audio system could cause you to get infected if your are not careful. So please don't chase these modifications unless you have a problem with glitches. If you don't, use all the normal precautions you use every day.

Correct Amir, it is a scenario based on expertise. AV software is generally a problem in the recording studio and not so much for play back.

For me personally I know how to run w/o so I don't. As I have said by all means run with AV and a Firewall if unsure. I would just put out the point that you need a solution that allows for realtime exclusion of a folder or file type. Generally speaking IF (and it is an IF) you are going to have a problem it will be with the real time scan engine.

As far as routers with AV there are a good # of models from various manufacturers for under $200. If a person does want a minimalist home audio PC done in such a fashion it is possible with the right guidance.

The first step? Don't run user accounts with Admin privs on a Windows machine

Best practices also include not introducing other vectors for virus propagation like unknown USB / SD / CF / External HD's and the like.

I think we are both in agreement that it is not only technically possible but very doable if you have the right 'education' about it.

Then your network isn't setup correctly.Other systems will naturally have AV and maybe a firewall. Restricted accounts mean read only access to the share.

I rip my CD's on machine other than the playback (doesn't even have a CD player).


End users should minimize the vectors available. Again no media goes directly to my 2.0 PC. All through my laptop that does have current AV/MalWare/Software Firewall since I have to take it on consulting gigs and put it on unknown networks.


You shouldn't be doing any of this on the machine actual. I download all drivers (ASIO 2 and most recent version of PatchMix) on my laptop. Over to a network share. Then log into the 2.0 PC with Admin account and install.

While this may not be the simplest thing to setup, it is also not (to borrow a phrase) rocket surgery

Maybe a best practices FAQ if you want to run a dedicated audio PC with a minimalist install?

It is a lot of aggravation for a problem which normally does not exist . I absolutely would want to rip on my audio PC and do local housekeeping on it. I see no reason for so much extra work as to avoid having an AV on it. I also like to have the files on the local PC. It is one less thing to get wrong. The audio library easily fits on one hard disk or in some cases, one SSD. NAS is fine but is not necessary for building simple music servers.


Our local audiophile society has had a long standing project to build optimal configurations for Music Servers. Their motivation though is esoteric optimization in the hopes of improving fidelity. While the theory of what they speak holds in principal, I am not convinced the specific steps of reducing system activity does actually improve fidelity. Regardless, it is a fun and informative read on how far people go to make a very minimalist audio server: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...Server-Project

Well you can't keep painting everything with the same color and same brush. My music collection is about 750GB so no SSD. I have 4TB of storage on a server that is hosting six VM's so for MY scenario it fits. I am at my laptop most of the day so ripping CD's from it while working also fits.

Not sure where the aggravation part comes in. I always find installing and tweaking Anti-Virus more work than not... Rip from the laptop and the album is on the 2.0 PC, it's on my HTPC, it's on my wifes laptop in her office with a micro-component Pioneer system, it's on my laptop, and it's on both of our iPhones. And for all this I need to rip from the 2.0 PC?

I'm not asking anyone to go esoteric. Just adjust processor scheduling and follow best practices as far as user account privs. Best practices on share privs. If you want AV and a software firewall go for it. For the technically savvy it's a step one not need to take.

My motivation is keeping it simple.

The real aggravation is having a definition file for AV software come through and all the sudden servers are running 100% and workstations are blue screening

I think after the initial Win7 install (and updates) It took about 10-15 minutes to go through what I posted. I didn't do it for fidelity. I did it for process performance, UI performance (dumped most UI affects like Aero), and stability. I think I have restarted my 2.0 2-3 times since July when I first built it. I love just walking in and dialing up some music.

I said it would fit on one drive and maybe SSD. Your situation is 100% compliant with what I said. I don't know anyone who has more music than fits on one hard disk. At 99 cents a track a 3 TB drive would mean purchases of 120,000 lossless audio tracks or $120,000!


Who was discussing VMs and how is that requiring going from 750 GBytes to 4 TBytes?


I don't think we care what your needs are. You advised OP to do the following:


Much of that is unnecessary aggravation putting aside the hassle of then ripping on a laptop which these days often means one without an optical drive. A music server is supposed to replace the functions of a dedicated CD player. Saying it will do that but then let's not use it to play or rip CDs makes no sense to me. I realize it does to you but you were not the topic of the conversation, but rather, the advise you are going to others.


Fine. But if a person has one running, you told them they should disable it per above. That is what we are discussing, not what is work for you to find and install one.


Yes, because now you require multiple PCs to be on to do this. All the while the music server sitting there, fully capable of putting a CD in it and listening to it while it is ripping it. All to avoid some issue around latency you can't quantify has anything to do with audio fidelity.


Why not ask them to wax the case too while they are at it? Users should not mess with such things unless the application calls for it. And in this case, it clearly does not for the typical customer. If you are of the type in the WBF thread, then sure. Go all out. I myself run stock PCs and see no need to screw around this way.


I am very technically savvy and I don't see the need to do so. I have better things to do than cripple machines for no reason relative to the application.


If AV load is causing a BSOD, then you have far more serious issues than building a music server. You need to fix that first. And 100% CPU load is not an issue either given the advent of dual core CPUs and the fact that playing music requires far less than 1% of your CPU resources. Yes, if you want to be anal about it, go crazy as the WBF thread shows. But for realistic application of a music server, it absolutely is not necessary.


Best thing you can do to build a stable PC is to not install extra software on it besides the essentials. If you are still having crashes and having to resort to above "fixes" then you are hiding problems you must fix.

Again, keep in mind that we are commenting on your advice to OP and presumably others on what to do. I am simply saying that lowering a systems security bar in the hopes of improving its crash-worthiness in that manner is not merited.

Seriously, generally advicing against using AV in the scenario we're discussing here is just...wrong. The detrimental audible effects of AV with playback is basically non-existent provided you're using a half decent computer. The detrimental efffects of dumping the intricate task of manually locking up his home network to figure out all intricacies of setting proper security permissions and configuring his FW properly on the average Joe is totally overshadowing the positives here...

Dude, chill. I'm just saying it doesn't fit my scenario.

I agree. It's not for everyone. BTW if you think that putting an account on a server and reducing it's permissions to read only on a share is intricate then you are one best served by AV and locally instantiated Firewalls.

If you are using the computer for general web browsing, online game play, pron sites, email, torrent etc then I agree: run AV and a Firewall

If you are not savvy enough to run a dedicated machine for just audio playback and not able to visit AVS on another machine, then I agree: run AV and a Firewall.

If you are not savvy enough to change the gateway in the TCP/IP stack to a non gateway address (this leaves the machine functioning on the local subnet), then I agree run AV and a Firewall.

For me it's two less things to bother with installing and maintaining. It's doable, I and others do it. It's within our technical means. It's not for everyone. AVS is a sharing and learning community. If anyone would like to learn they can. It's a good academic exercise and gets back to the fundamentals of proper setup in a modern, networked, Windows environment.

If you don't get that the advice is conditional then you don't get it that it is conditional.

Last time I checked this isn't a forum of average Joe's BTW

And I personally don't give people a pass thinking that the ability to go to Best Buy, purchase a computer and get iTunes working makes them a computer pro. My Dentist thinks 'He's a computer guy'. He's such a computer guy that I just made $550 on Friday recovering his DC, restoring his AD database, Exchange, Shares etc after he decided to do who knows what.

[quote=amirm;21431601]
if that is unnecessary aggravation putting aside the hassle of then ripping on a laptop which these days often means one without an optical drive. A music server is supposed to replace the functions of a dedicated CD player. Saying it will do that but then let's not use it to play or rip CDs makes no sense to me. I realize it does to you but you were not the topic of the conversation, but rather, the advise you are going to others.[quote]

Look at all the Logitech products. No CD drive. People use machines that they don't necessarily listen to music on to perform the rip since it is a one time operation on said CD.


No, that is not what I said:

If you can, and this is a dedicated PC for audio only (no pok(h)er sites and the such). Uninstall the Antivirus and kill any software firewalls.

Stop talking in the absolutes (since there really aren't any) and pay attention. This is how you keep getting into trouble around here.


Different strokes for different folks and I think a thread going through a good many permutations and usage scenarios would be apt.

I am after low latency, good UI snappiness and in the sole context of the actual PC doing the playback as minimalist as possible. Just my approach. I have a network, I have storage, I have the technical ability to set it up correctly and lock it down, users, permissions etc...


Neither my HTPC or 2.0 PC are crippled, nor compromised. Everyone needs to adjust and setup for their needs/usage scenario.


Agreed, but I personally don't worry about it.


Yep, and FOR ME, I don't need to run AV/Firewall on those machines. No crashes, no instability. Just plain runs.


Agreed different strokes for different folks. But if someone wants to take a crack at a dedicated, properly configured and secured 2.0 PC I'm willing to lend my experiences.

Perhaps we come from different backrounds. I have many hobbies. HiFi is one of them, two others are freeride telemark skiing and flying 3D acrobatic model helicopters.

When it comes to skiing free heel is the ultimate rush IMHO. The only problem is that the bindings basically date back to the 1940s and don't have quick release. One mistake and you end up with a black and blue hip or not seldome a disjointed knee or other severe injury.

Flying aerobatics with model helis might sound like playing with kids toys but rest asured it is not. A, say, 700 size model heli is a very dangerous piece of macinery; 1.4 m (5 ft) rotor diameter spinning at high RPMs -the main blades will slice through flesh and bone like it's was a bar of lukewarm butter. Add to that that flying a model helicopter is far more difficult than flying a real helicopter...

I would never dream of advising my telemark student to go down the drops I can barely handle myself the first day. Same goes for heli flying. I basically treat the heli as a leathal weapon and would never dream of luring any newbies into unsafe manouvers before I am sure they will be able to control the situation no matter what failure is thrown at them.

Same goes for computer security advice...

The whole notion of the Logitech Squeezebox is to *eliminate* the PC as the client for playback. How on earth do you think that is in support of your scenario? Indeed, if I were to cripple the PC so much, I might as well get a Squeezebox and be done with it. Ironically, the Squeezebox doesn't need anti-virus.


And I am saying that is wrong. If your normal mode of operation is to use AV to protect your home PCs, you should continue with it unless it interferes with proper playback. Whether the device is a "dedicated audio" device or not, does not change the probability of it getting hit with a virus and spreading it to the rest of your home systems. If the thing has a CPU running Windows, it can be infected. There is no barrier to such things because you happen to use the device as a music server.


No, the only person getting in trouble is the one following your advice, removing security from their PC and have it get infected and then infect a bunch of other computer. And all this for no good reason you have been able to articulate.

That is the main point of contention. That you think people should mess with their start-up apps, AV, and such. Outside of that, I am not advocating everyone do things the same way. But there is certain hygiene that goes with proper maintenance of a computer at home that needs to be followed and we don't get to play fast and loose with them for no benefit.


There is that bit about waxing the PC case again . Why on earth is latency important in playback? There is ample buffering going on all around to make sure this plays. I have a HTPC at our vacation house which is constant recording video programming, playing a slideshow and handling my music playback beautifully. The UI is responsive and hell of a lot faster than me inserting CDs one at a time. If I bring a new CD home, I can listen to it while being ripped with a nice remote controlled UI.

You have not identified any benefits to being a minimalist other than hope and prayer that killing a couple of things makes things better. If you "don't have the chops" to put together a working and reliable PC this way, maybe you shouldn't build them to being with.


That's cool. Just don't advocate what you have done to others relative to AV, messing with start-up apps, etc. None of that is good advice unless a person really knows what they are doing in which case, they don't need to listen to you and I .


Your HTPC is crippled if it can't rip music. That is one of the basic features of a media center PC.

The Squeezbox is a PC of sorts. How is standard best practices of user account privs and proper share permissions 'crippling'? This I would like to see your explanation on.


AV sometimes is use in lieu of good, common practices. You worked at M$. You know the amount of breaches related directly to users running as admin accounts.


I have already articulated. I run two machines w/o AV and have had zero occurrence of infection. It's not blind luck that this has happened. I don't experience slow downs, it's one less product running and taking up resources. The machines are limited to their roles in my home.

We have a difference of opinion on the matter. Fine. Everyone can do what they want to do. All I can do is shrug my shoulders and queue up another play list and listen on.



No I don't think people should at whim mess with their configuration. In my initial post I even started laying out some guidelines as to the IF / WHEN. It's a conditional statement.


Latency as far as system responsiveness, UI, Windowing etc... The SSD has helped out very much in that respect too.


Actually I have the chops to put together a system that is reliable, stable, AND in one case been running 8+ years through two iterations with ZERO infection.


I thought one of the tenets of a forum like AVS was to get to information on certain subject matter that others are well versed in You know, get your learn on. Lord knows dcomp.vpn usenet feed helped me learn about Cisco gear back in the mid 90's.

If someone can't come to a forum like AVS and get all sides of the conversation, talk about general approaches, minimal/maximalist setups etc then what are we doing here?

I would rather have a constructive conversation. But that isn't going to happen. I understand your view point, it holds water in a lot of scenarios, just my personal experience doesn't allow me to believe it for ALL scenarios.


My HTPC can rip music I never said it couldn't. I just rip on my laptop since I am sitting at it anyways.

I would never rip music on a playback HTPC/device, nor would I store files locally on it. Much easier to have universal access to media when it is stored centrally. And why add ripping ability to a playback device if not necessary? I'd rather keep all hardware and installed software to a minimum to a small, cool, quiet, power mising, stable, and fast playback machine.

My mantra for good HTPC use is build a file holder to hold files, build a ripper/processor to rip media, transcode, host web apps, etc., and build playback devices to playback media.

You can of course do all on one machine, and for someone with only one display that might be a viable option, but that doesn't make it "the way" or make a simultaneously more distributed and centralized HTPC solution "crippled."

Also makes backup management easier when all the data is hosted at one server. The only backup I need make of the playback machine is after the final tweaking and I have everything the way I want it. If that machine has an HD failure I simply restore from image and am backup in 30 minutes.

My image for the Win7 2.0 playback computer is 12GB.


With PC's and NAS becoming more and more 'commodity' in their pricing you are seeing households with more than one machine. WHS is in a lot of houses now.


Agreed.

Does your mantra for a good HTPC include disabling anti-virus, changing kernel scheduler policy and stopping start-up processes? And oh, running DPC latency checker?

Mine does. And I don't need DPC latency checker "for sound" since I don't play music under Vista/Seven. I tried for couple of days, but thanks, no.