New to Vinyl - Built-in or External Phono Pre-amp for new TT?

My mom wants to get back into her vinyl collection, and she usually comes to me with all of her AV-related questions. I know next to nothing about vinyl and TTs, but after doing some research here and elsewhere I pointed her to a Denon DP300F TT with Ortofon 2M Red cartridge at needledoctor.com. The Denon has a built-in phono pre-amp, however I've read conflicting information on whether it will be adequate.

She'll be using a pair of Dunlavy SC-III loudspeakers that I gave to her with a Pioneer VSX-1121 receiver (which does not have a phono input) - the Dunlavys are incredibly neutral and sensitive so they're quite capable resolving very fine audio detail. Given that, would using an external pre-amp from say phonopreamps.com yield a percievable increase in AQ or will the one built into the Denon be sufficient?

Thanks to both of you for the information - it seems that you're both in agreement that any extra money would be better spent in a better cartridge rather than in an external pre-amp.

What about one cartridge makes it better than another? Are there any places where I can go to look at the measured FR differences between various cartridges? Thanks for helping me increase my (currently zero) knowledge on this subject - it's making me consider looking into vinyl for myself as a lot of the music I like is available in that format.\\

**Edit: How long should I expect a cartridge to last with good care and light to moderate usage?

That's what I was worried about. From looking at the spec sheets, there seems to be little that separates the Ortofon 2M Red from Blue (or Bronze or Black for that matter). I'll freely admit that I may not recognize seemingly insignificant differences as being significant due to my lack of TT-related knowledge.

I'll be up front in that I don't buy into a lot of the esoteric audiophile stuff that lacks some sort of measurements (or at least sound audio science) to keep their claimed performance grounded in reality. I'm not saying that more expensive cartridges can't be better, but I'd like to know why they're better before shelling more money out (or convincing my mom to do so) for a "better" one.

Thanks much for the feedback - and good luck if you ever decide to jump the upgrade gap to the Blackbird, that's a pretty penny! What kind of upgrade program does Sumiko offer?

The reason I chose the automatic table was mostly for ease-of-use for my mom. She wears glasses (or should, she rarely does) and I figured it would be easier for her to have an auto table than to try to fumble with finding the starting point on an LP in low light or whatnot. Plus she wouldn't have to worry about moving the tonearm after the album is over - i.e. it would give her more life on her cartridge. However needledoctor.com mentions the added mechanisms required for an auto-table can potentially increase vibration and/or decrease sound quality. I guess I'll have to try to do a little more reading on reliability and impact on sound - and of course any comments here would be appreciated. Plus I could always ask my mom if she'd mind a manual vs. auto TT.


I did some more poking around and found some documentation from another company that explained a little of what you explained above. I certainly understand how the shape of the stylus tip can allow it to trace the groove of the record in a particular way, thus affecting the resulting sound. I really wish I could sit down and listen to different cartridges on the same system to listen to the difference for myself to see which I prefer. I'm sure I'd be far more discerning than my mom, but at this point I'm more curious than anything else.

Thanks again for the great info so far from everyone, please keep it coming! You guys have been incredibly helpful

Thanks for the suggestion! Again, being that this is my mom, she probably wouldn't like the "look" of that one (even though I think it's cool). I'll run it by her and see what she says though, it seems like a great value.

For manual TTs, I was also looking at the Music Hall MMF-2.2 - anyone have any experience with that one?

My mom is 52 (and often acts 20 years younger than that!) sorry to be vague on that part. My concern for the manual TT was more regarding her eyesight than anything else - I had a chance to talk to her for a bit today and she said manual would be just fine given that she grew up with manual TT and only had a brief stint with automatic tables.

I found a lightly used Music Hall MMF-5 (with a Goldring 1012GX cartridge) locally for $425 (shipping/PayPal included), I'm going to see if I can give it a listen/take a look in person. I know it's not the 5.1, but for the price do you guys think it represents a good value compared to similarly priced new TT's (assuming the owner has taken good care of it)?

I decided to go with the Music Hall MMF-5 on Audiogon - for the price I got a lot more than what I'd get new. The TT alone is probably as nice or nicer than what I'd get for the same money new; the cartridge on there goes for $500, and it's in very good condition so it's a great deal overall. I'll have to get an external phono amp but that won't be expensive.

Thanks again for all the help and advice from everyone, I greatly appreciate it. I'm sure I'll be back with more setup-related questions later

Since the MMF-5 needs a phono preamp, I picked one of these up as well for my mom:

http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750lcpp.html

Lots of good reviews, and for the price hard to beat. I'm getting excited to help her set this up and give her vinyl a listen. Most of her albums were purchased in the 60's and 70's (some older than that) but have been in storage for most of the time and are in exceptional condition!

Thanks for the reminder, I passed that along to my mom so she could go to needledoctor.com to get everything.

Quick question - the TT arrived in great shape, it looks essentially new, so my mom and I are super excited to get it set up to listen to some of her LP's. Do I need to check the alignment/tracking/balance on the tonearm/cartridge before playing an LP? I'm confident the previous owner had it set up correctly, however I don't know if the alignment could have been disturbed by the shipping process, and I don't want to excessively damage any of my mom's LPs due to any of those parameters being off. I also don't want to mess with any of it if it doesn't need to be messed with. Suggestions?

To be honest I haven't seen how it was shipped yet. I know for a fact he did pack the platter separately, and he secured the tonearm so it wouldn't move during shipping. I can ask my mom whether the counterweight was removed - given the care that the previous owner took to pack everything securely, I wouldn't be surprised if he did. When I re-attach the counterweight will I have to use one of the scales I've seen to make sure the tracking weight is correct? And I'm assuming I'll want to check the cartridge alignment with one of the protractors I've read about as well? I know this is probably all very basic stuff but I'm starting from scratch here, so you really can't get too basic with your replies

Very useful info! I'll take a look at the user manual for the info above, which sounds pretty straight forward. I'm assuming one would use an RCA -> 1/8" stereo phono plug adapter to port the output from the phono preamp directly to the computer's sound card for use with the analysis software?

I don't mind taking the extra time to do this, I'll spend just as much time calibrating my video chain with the requisite gear, so doing the same for the TT makes clear and reasonable sense.

I will definitely head over that way and take a look, thanks for the suggestion!


Easy enough. Using the test tones and taking measurements will be familiar to me; how to affect changes by making adjustments to the TT will be the new part, so I'm sure I'll have more questions as that time comes.