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Pioneer CLD-D704 Info / Troubleshooting

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
I am looking for some info / advice on troubleshooting a Pioneer CLD-D704 Laser Disk player. (Disclaimer - I have searched, read, and followed some of the tips that I could find )

Background - I am the original owner of the unit. It has never been abused or mistreated that I know of. It has not been used for about 5 years (in storage, indoors, in the original box and packaging. We have about 25 titles and so it has not seen a great deal of use while it was working.

Symptom - As described in other posts the unit will eject the tray and allow me to load a disk. The tray / mechanism retracts and the disk is parked in (what looks like) a ready position. Pressing the 'Play' button the disk spins up and then after circa ~10seconds (maybe slightly less) displays "0" on the panel and the motor/ spindle winds down to a stopped state. Once the disk has stopped spinning I can readily eject the disk. (and try another one)

Steps I have taken (and observations)
1) Removed the cover and located the 'rubber cushion' located on the lower motor spindle (Pioneer p/n VEB123) as described in a previous post.
(* I dressed this with some contact and head cleaner and returned it to a rubbery state that is non slip or has a slightly sticky feel to it.
2) I can successfully load and play a cd in the unit (also a test described in another post)
3) The disk (&/or motor) seems to 'freewheel' to a stopped state and does not appear to have an 'electric brake or stopping mechanism (not sure if this is normal?)
4) I did observe the the unit waits for the disk to wind down before it will open the tray and this may be why some others who posted are experiencing a delay in ejecting the disk on this model once they press the 'stop' and /or 'eject' buttons.
5) The tray mechanism moves appropriately with no abnormal noises or sticking.
6) The optical mechanism will rotate from the 'a' to 'b' side corresponding to the pressing of the "A" / "B" on the front of the unit. In both cases (A or B) , pressing the play button will spin up the disk but it will not play as described above. (i.e stops after a few seconds)
7) I cleaned the optic lens with the same contact and head cleaner on a q-tip (also something read from another post) and checked for cleanliness with a magnifying glass.

Any suggestions for next steps or sourcing a service manual would be appreciated. I am hoping this is a known problem or something that is easy to diagnose with some tips from the experts on this forum.

Thanks for reading and feel free to reply if there are additional details I can provide. (I am able to provide some pics or video of the unit if that will help)

Many Thanks, RJD
post #2 of 20
The fact you mentioned it plays CDs is a great help in diagnosing the problem.

For the breaking; LD players apply torque in the reverse direction to stop the spinning. If there was a break mechanism it would wear out quickly do to the force of the spinning disc (just like old reel to reel players). The electronics is monitoring the RPM sensor looking for the spindle motor to stop. Once the acceptable slow RPM is detected the reverse torque is removed and the spindle motor free spins with what ever rate the LD is spinning. It is usually never 100% stopped but very slow so that putting the LD on the tray will not scratch the LD surface, this is the concern, you don't want to drop a spinning disc on the tray as it will jump up and start banging around inside the player. So before putting the disc in the tray the electronics does another RPM check. Now if the LD was slipping the RPM sensor says the LD is still spinning too fast so I cannot put it on the tray. It waits for it to slow down to an acceptable rate and the the eject finally occurs. So if you are not getting immediate start of the eject cycle after the break is released then you have some slippage.

Now for your problem. There is also a capacitor that commonly shorts that blows an IC fuse on the main board. It can cause your problem. As it only affects LD playback as it is in the video circuit. CD playback ignores the video circuit. You have to remove the boards and replace the parts. Since you are in Canada it would probably be expensive to ship to the US to me to fix. Do you know someone that can test the cap and solder on the mainboard to replace the parts?
post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the reply Kurtis.
I am pretty handy with a soldering iron, have access to a Fluke 87 DMM, and would be willing to give it a try. Would you be able (and willing) to help me identify the correct board and locate the capacitor and IC Fuse that are of interest?

If it helps ... with the disk tray facing me, and the lid removed, I count 4 significant circuit boards in the CLD-D704. (let me know if I have this right or you can follow)
A) on the left rear (bottom) would be the power supply board (VWR1200-D)
on the right side there are three boards.
B) Rt side - bottom (horizontal) that appears to be the Video Board (all the video out (S-vid and Composite) and digital output connections are part of this assmbly)
C) Rt side - vertically oriented (VNP1420-I - with a silver RF shield mounted on the side of the board facing inwards) Not sure what to call this board or what it does)
D) Rt side - top (horizontal & inverted) that appears to be the Audio Board. (all of the Audio Outs and AC-3 RF are part of this assmbly)

Which one of these is the main-board that contains the capacitor and IC fuse that you have referred to? Is there an easy way for you to point me at these components so I can give them a test?

Thanks again

p.s with respect to the braking - my player does not seem to initiate or engage any reverse torque and my perception is that it is simply freewheeling down to a slow / stopped state. This takes about 46 seconds (+/- 1sec) to spool down to a stopped (or slow enough) state that will allow the next command to be executed. (by next command I mean, a re-attempt at 'play', a switch from the 'a' to 'b' sides or an 'eject' / 'open' disk tray input on the front panel). Based on this behavior, it would appear that the RPM sensor on my unit is able to determine the stopped state of the spindle and adjust any sequencing logic that would dependent on the spindle being in a stopped state. ( since the player will not initiate any action until the disk has stopped rotation.) Not sure if this is the expected behavior for this unit but thought it worth clarifying for your consideration. Do you know / are you aware if;
a) a ~46 second spin down is in the range of normal or excessive? b) is there a known problem or easy way to diagnose / establish if the reverse torque is being applied by the motor and, if not, why? c) If the ~46sec spin down time is not normal, would your experience suggest that this a separate symptom of the same issue (i.e there is a common denominator) or is it more likely that there exists two distinct problems?

Thanks again for your guidance on this.
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
I noticed that this thread has had circa ~300 views since it was first posted only a few days ago. Since it would seem that there is some passive interest I thought I would provide an update.

We have concluded that the braking issue, or more accurately, lack of braking / reverse torque being initiated, is a secondary symptom that is caused by the disc failing to be read in the first place. As such the disk spins up to speed, the player says "i don't recognize you" and initiates a freewheel spin down of the disk as the player returns to a quiet state.

The root cause appears to be the known failure of the capacitor and fuse in the video circuit that Kurtis pointed out in his previous response to this thread. This is the repair path currently in-flight.

The complexity of this repair is significant and should be carefully considered. You should know that it involves gutting your player to get at the main board with the suspect components (1 -> 2 hrs) , confirming that the suspect parts are faulty (30 min -> 1 hr), sourcing and acquiring the new components ( x days - still don't have them yet, should get them tomorrow ), de-soldering the old components and replacing with the new (est 1 -> 2hrs) and reassembling the player (1 -> 2hrs). This may also require you to purchase some equipment that you don't have in your DIY kit (such as a pcb solder removal tool etc.)

My regret is that I do not have a way to get this unit to and from Kurtis from where I live (Ontario, Canada) without extreme difficulty and shipping costs. If I lived in the U.S my player would have gone to him and would probably already have been fixed and returned to me. I would be watching movies right now instead of updating this thread. I believe that there may be a few experts like Kurtis on this forum and if you are lucky enough to have one of these folks near you then I would strongly encourage you to leave this repair to those experts. It is definitely worth it.

I will post a last update with the results once I have executed the repair.

Cheers All
RJD32
Thanks Kurtis for your help and the incredible patience you have shown working with me thus far to get this sorted.
post #5 of 20
How close are you to Detroit assuming you have a/or friend(s) there? I hope you pardon my humble suggestion. It worked for me once!
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Thank you Zenyatto for the thought. (Reply sent via PM).
post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 
I am pleased to share that the repairs to the video circuit have been completed and my CLD-D704 has been returned to service. My daughter and I were able to enjoy Alladin (CAV Letterbox version) as a test disk last night.

Summary notes - (things for others to consider)
- Make sure that if you are going to take over your wife's sewing table as a technology repair work bench that she is okay with it and the time that it will not be usable by her. (almost justified the cost of shipping)
- Although I did disconnect all three boards from the right side of chassis (this is required) I elected to not disconnect the boards from each other (they are connected by pins and ribbon cables etc). This facilitates re-assembly but it means that you have to carefully move the cluster of loose boards as an assembly to get at the solder points.
- Where the capacitor was soldered to the main-board , there appeared to be a yellowish / varnish substance on one of the solder joints. This was only on the + leg of capacitor and the negative lead looked clean. I can only presume that this occurred during the board assembly at the plant during manufacturing.
- The replacement capacitor was not too difficult to locate and took me a few hours and visiting 3 different electronic component stores. Kurtis will normally upgrade this component better than the OEM when he repairs this circuit but I was not able to locally source the 'Low ESR' (Equivalent Series Resistance) version he recommended.
- The IC Protection circuit requires an IC component that I was just not able to get locally in either its original form or as a cross-referenced substitute. (it does appear to be easily available in the US) Once again Kurtis stepped up and suggested an alternate approach that provides the same level of protection as the original IC but is not as pretty or professional looking.
- Locating the correct points to unsolder on the back of the board and correlating them to the components you need to remove on the front was a challenge (read P.I.T.A) that I did not expect (I got lucky the four times I needed though)
- I am getting old To the point, soldering on the back of a main board with solder points that are a dime's width apart requires a steady , steady , steady hand. (once again I got lucky the four times I needed)
- Patient reassembly took a little under an hour and this was better than I had expected.

If anyone has any questions about my experience feel free to send me a PM and I will share what I can.

Once again I would recommend you send your unit to an expert such as Kurtis if it is demonstrating the symptoms describes in this thread. I would be remiss if I did not thank him , once again, for his assistance and support. Without his experience and guidance I would not have been able to make this repair.

Cheers All.
post #8 of 20
Any possibility of sharing the specific details of the repair. Part number, value, board.
What was the deal with the protection IC?
post #9 of 20
It is just a way for automated processes to add a fuse for protection of specific areas on a circuit board. Like this one. When it blows the video section will not work but the unit will still act as a CD player. If the fuse was in the power supply the whole unit would not work. Also by adding FUSE protection IC's you can design the current value for specific sections. If you have a larger fuse for the entire board then you can draw more current before the fuse blows and the possibility of damaging good parts greatly increases.
post #10 of 20
I guess if I had the 704 Service Manual I might have noted that you were talking about one of these IC Protectors. Or is it one of the SMD form factors.



If you don't mind saying, which cap(s) typically go, so I can look and see if I need to order some.
post #11 of 20
Thread Starter 
The capacitor of interest is a 1000uf. The low ESR version is a higher quality component and recommended (and what Kurtis uses for this repair. I was not able to source one locally) . On the main board (and presumably in the service manual) it is referenced as "C493". As I recall, it is one of the larger (in terms of physical size) capacitors on the board. There is a section of the board, whithin a couple of inches of this that is labeled ICP-N5. In / around this area is IC410 which is a circuit protector that will need to be replaced. It does indeed look like the picture you show (above).

If it is a viable alternative for you I would recommend sending the unit to Kurtis or one of the other professionals on this forum. I would have gladly done so had it not been for the shipping costs. In my case shipping would have been more $ than what Kurtis would have charged me for the repair.

Hope this helps.
RJD
post #12 of 20
Thank you.

My background is very much like yours. I bought my player new, used it until DVD's really took off and then put it in storage. The last time I took it out it was making clicking noises trying to open the tray so I put it away until yesterday and started searching to see what problems were documented.

I don't see any typical signs that C493 (1000uf 10v 85*C) has leaked or otherwise gone bad but I have two good choices in my parts bin for replacing it. Some Nichicon HN series and some Rubycon MBZ series 1000uf 10v 105*C caps that I've used for computer VRM caps before. I'll order up some ICP-N5-T 250ma N type fuses so I have them on hand if I need them and a new grip ring for the spindle since mine is old and off centered, binding the hub's spring return..

If I really needed this working again and there wasn't a high chance of it being destroyed in shipping I'd consider sending it to Kurtis. Searching has shown him to be the internet expert on these units. I'll start another thread for the specifics of my problem with the transport and tray jamming rather than go off topic here.

Thanks for the details on what you did to fix your issue. I'll consider changing the cap as a preemptive service.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiette View Post

Thank you.

My background is very much like yours. I bought my player new, used it until DVD's really took off and then put it in storage. The last time I took it out it was making clicking noises trying to open the tray so I put it away until yesterday and started searching to see what problems were documented.

I don't see any typical signs that C493 (1000uf 10v 85*C) has leaked or otherwise gone bad but I have two good choices in my parts bin for replacing it. Some Nichicon HN series and some Rubycon MBZ series 1000uf 10v 105*C caps that I've used for computer VRM caps before. I'll order up some ICP-N5-T 250ma N type fuses so I have them on hand if I need them and a new grip ring for the spindle since mine is old and off centered, binding the hub's spring return..

If I really needed this working again and there wasn't a high chance of it being destroyed in shipping I'd consider sending it to Kurtis. Searching has shown him to be the internet expert on these units. I'll start another thread for the specifics of my problem with the transport and tray jamming rather than go off topic here.

Thanks for the details on what you did to fix your issue. I'll consider changing the cap as a preemptive service.

This failure does not have anything to do with the tray not opening. The symptoms for this is CD's will play fine but LD's spin up but never sync up and play.

If you have clicking sounds trying to open the tray you have mechanical alignment issues.

Also if you have the video issue the caps you have are fine.
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post

This failure does not have anything to do with the tray not opening.

Thanks, I caught that right away. Since I knew I would have to take the player apart anyway the comment that "this was capacitor that commonly shorts and blows an IC fuse on the main board" sounded like something I should check and fix while I was in there.

For anyone else looking for this cap and the IC Protection fuses: The fuses look like transistors below my fingers and the cap is the large one to the left of the motor.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post

If you have clicking sounds trying to open the tray you have mechanical alignment issues.

No question. Something was jamming the pickup sled from retracting to the stop on the lower side (B?) and the drive gear was jumping. It looks like there may be more than one issue, the tray gears don't have any clear timing relationship but I can see at least one has timing marks and it looks like a plastic "arm" that is next to the spindle unloaded is deformed, likely from being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Thank you both for you help. I've replaced the 1000uf cap and will keep looking for the tray timing information.
LL
post #15 of 20
Here's the bent part I was referring to. I assume this piece should be straight and flat.

What causes it to move left and right in the slots below it?





post #16 of 20
The part that is bent is the piece that switches between the CD or LD tray ejecting. You can remove it and it will only eject the LD tray which works fine. You can try to straighten it or replace it if you want the tray switch to work.

As for the timing. Just have it in the open position and put the tray in squarely, That is all the newer series needs for alignment.

If you replaced the capacitor then I wouldn't worry about the fuse. The old one is not oil filled so it won't leak it just shorts over time. Having the 105 degree part will make it last much longer
post #17 of 20
The old cap was fine so I wasn't worried about the fuses being blown. I checked them to make sure there was continuity between the pins while changing the cap to be sure.

I put everything back together and it seems to be working fine now, thank you. I did have to roll the pickup sled onto the shuttle and power cycle it before it would load and spin up a disk. Prior to that the tray would work, the pickup would home but it wouldn't ty to spin up the disk.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiette View Post

The old cap was fine so I wasn't worried about the fuses being blown. I checked them to make sure there was continuity between the pins while changing the cap to be sure.

I put everything back together and it seems to be working fine now, thank you. I did have to roll the pickup sled onto the shuttle and power cycle it before it would load and spin up a disk. Prior to that the tray would work, the pickup would home but it wouldn't ty to spin up the disk.

You should clean the rubber surface on top of the spindle motor, if it is not already slipping on some LDs it will be soon.
post #19 of 20
I did. Those are before pictures
post #20 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtis Bahr View Post

The part that is bent is the piece that switches between the CD or LD tray ejecting. You can remove it and it will only eject the LD tray which works fine. You can try to straighten it or replace it if you want the tray switch to work.

This is very helpful advice. My D703 has been plagued with a jamming tray for a long time. I just removed that whole lever assembly, required unscrewing 2 small screws and unhooking a spring. Now no more jams!
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