AUDIOGON's new format - Page 16

You are the one that doesn't seem get it, as it was never about how they got the numbers, filtered or otherwise. The web page is meant to be for the US (main page states Audio Marts in United States), so why should canadian listings be included in the count ? If I wanted Canadian listings, I would look at the Canadian site.
Including counts of canadian listings under US main page is misleading IMO, particularly when only 47 of the claimed 800+ are actually in the US. Its like craigslist dallas having 1000 listings but 900 of them are actually listed in New York - thats is misleading.
You might be comfortable with such representations but I am not.
Edited by toslat - 6/28/12 at 2:36am

I agree with some of this WOM. Audiogon is digging their own grave, much like Netflix. Netflix is doing it by costing themselves out of competition, and an out-dated business model (a much more complicated matter than Audiogon's). A lot of people are mentioning how CAM/USAM are still free. Sure, everyone wants to keep a little more of their hard-earned money...but the fee wasn't really the thing that put me off AG. When it happened, sure...2% of some of these items can add up to a little chunk of change; but the way I looked at it is we had a pretty good run there for a while. What "service" comes at no cost in this world?

No...it was the functionality, or lack thereof. For all I know, AG never has an application error now...has stellar communications...the greatest, new members in the world, and TONS of listings; doesn't matter...the bloom is off the rose. It was sooo bad, for sooo long after the launch...I tuned-out (oh, and lost transactions and money!). If someone else offers me a similar experience, that's where I'll trade...if and when I start trading again (yes...I used to be a pretty regular gear-swapper. AG really put me out of that part of the hobby).

As for eBay...I get your point, to an extent. Yes, if you have a piece of "mid-fi" gear; something maybe the budding audiophile knows by name...you'll likely get a premium at eBay, because they are not as savvy as the traders at Audiogon. Like a Parasound amp comes to mind. That's pretty ordinary to the AG crowd, and they come up all the time. However...for the guy coming from an AVR, you'll get a couple in a bidding war...who are thrilled about the idea of a Parasound amp (no offense meant to Parasound owners...lol); and you'll likely get more than you could ever dream at AG. OTOH...I doubt you'd do as well with higher-end gear, like Conrad Johnson, et al. Just too expensive for the average eBayer. I could be wrong; never really tried selling hi-end stuff there.

I say Tomayto you say Tomahto.

I would have expected them to include all listings on their site no matter where in the world they are and I think most US users would not have a problem with including the 51st state in their stats. They have a handy little location code to the right of the item listing and you can filter by province or state if you want. It's not like you have to click on the ad to see where the item is unlike some other sites. I hardly think this rises to the level of misrepresentation or claims that they are not acting with integrity.

Netflix is only a three and a half billion dollar company now. Down from 10 billion two years ago. They've lost 55% of their market cap but the company still more valuable than my life.

Netflix underestimated the savviness of their average customer. The only reason I (and other subscribers) used their sub-par streaming services was because of the the bundle deal. They thought that streaming service was invaluable. Although I think they would have eventually went downhill as the disc dies, they could have had a nice run till at least 2015 with the disc rentals

In a way Audiogon may have had the same attitude. I remember the first day I saw the new Audiogon. I sent the like 3 messages saying that this ain't gonna fly, and i'm sure many others did as well. The customer is always right:)

Hi again all,

Thanks for the feedback on the confusion of the category counters toslat - we've just launched an update today to fix this problem.

If you're interested here's a slightly longer explanation:

http://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21

As always, feedback is always welcome, and I don't check this thread all the time, so if you leave feedback on USAM itself we might see it sooner.

Thanks again to all who are considering using the site. I know there are and will be hiccups, we work hard to make sure the whole thing is a smooth experience but there's always work to be done and we're going to do it .

You guys might also be interested to know that we've improved our categories a bit, which is another point of feedback that we received.

Honestly...what in the 'EF' did these guys do to this site!?!? Are they going backwards, or what??

I just bought 2 items in as many days (after a long absence, I decided to go trolling again). One transaction started off OK; regular contact with the seller...but then nothing from messages posted to him through Audiogon. The other; I made an offer, offer was accepted...but the ad never turned into a "sold". There's no "order" page, with which to make payment, contact seller, etc.

On top of which...email to Audiogon, have thus-far gone un-answered; and their "help" page is full of people trying to get help just completing their transactions. Still a mess; like I said...I think it's gotten worse, and I didn't think that was possible.

EDIT- Ah, perfect timing. The nice lady at Audiogon...and we all know her, because evidently she's the only one who works there now...just sent me an email.

Hi CD

It appears the listing was sold to 2 different users somehow. As yours was first, we cancelled the incorrect sale and re-did it for you. You should now see it in the Bought section of your Mypage and you can converse with the seller on the order page there.
(name withheld)

Audiogon Support

WoW; sold to 2 different buyers somehow! Amateur hour. I'd beware; I could have, as easily as not...lost this item. Honestly, criminal IMO.
Edited by CDLehner - 8/11/12 at 9:12pm

I am not even able to leave feedback for a recent sale.

Yeah, this is true. Just made 2 little purchases, and there is NO way to link direct feedback to a sale; all they offer at this point, is "general" feedback. In other words, you enter in a user name, a brand, a model...what you paid, and you type away.

Does anyone else see this as a HUGE issue, when it comes to fraud? What I wouldn't give to be able to tell these people how clueless they are!

If you do leave someone feedback, even if they never sold you anything, Audiogon will bill them.

What a joke!

I can't believe Audiogon now charges you $4.00 + 2% (up to $100). AudioGON got gready. They even charge you $4.00 to post a wanted ad. Not to long ago you could sell a $50,000 amplifier for $4.00.

2% is way too much IMHO. It's time for a rival classifeds site. I wonder if there is any interest in an getting an alternative site going?

-Brian
Edited by Bghead8che - 8/24/12 at 8:52pm

I agree the Feedback system sucks but I tried selling my Songtowers on all the "alternative" sites and only Audiocircle got me some nibbles. After a month or two went by, I put them on Agon and got way more traffic which culminated in a sale. Better to pay 2% and sell your gear than...

I also bought my current speakers and preamp there recently and no hiccups on the transactions other than trying to leave feedback.

Well, that's the classic conundrum...isn't it? Interestingly enough, I now consider Audiogon like the eBay of the audiophile world...and that's the reason; you have a BIG choice to make, between getting the most traffic (still?) and all the fees and bullsh*t.

I don't mind the fees so much. Sure, who wouldn't prefer the old days...when it was free, or $4.00 to list and that was all she wrote. The way I see it, we all had it pretty good there for a while, and it's simply time to pay the piper. No, what I mind is the bullsh*t! The site is dog-as* slow...still; probably because of all the ads, and monitoring sites they have. I've tried it with all 3 browsers; IE9, Google Chrome, and Firefox...just to see if one is optimized better than another. They all just spin and spin, and spin...waiting for uploads from the likes of AdChoice, or Lijit.com. It's ridiculous; yes, either the fees should be enough to support the site, or you should be able to opt-out of this deluge.

But worse than ALL of that, is the functionality of the transactions...and on a related note, the FRAUD and new crop of "users" the site has garnered since it's "change-over". We've already talked about the disastrous feedback system. I've written them about it; they don't get it. They simply say "it's on the old platform, that's all". When you're trading $1,000, $5,000, $10,000 pieces of gear with people, feedback is crucial; feedback is king! Feedback is life-blood! Without feedback that actually ties to a f*cking transaction, who knows what in the hell people are doing over there? Audiogon claims they verify all feedback; uh, sure.

And then...and not on an unrelated note...there's the FRAUD. OMG...browsing that site now, is like walking through the bad part of town after dark; you have to be oh so vigilant and on your toes. I could take 2 minutes, and list 10 auctions that look like obvious cons to me. Sure, the guys listing $10,000 Krells...with NO feedback; they're easy to spot (even though there's a LOT more than there ever were) and avoid. Then there's the people with like 2/3 pieces of feedback; they obviously sell a couple of legit...and maybe inexpensive pieces of gear; get some positive-looking feedback (or...just leave it for themselves; I doubt there's anything to prevent that now, the way the feedback is set up), and then go in for the kill with something expensive.

Then there's the guys, who have obviously hacked the system...during a time of vulnerability in the change-over (or for all I know, it's still on-going). They have good feedback; perfect even. Lots of transactions, for 100% rating; but they haven't traded since like 2005...lol. Yeah right And then the really smart ones: they've obviously hacked into an inactive account, like I just mentioned; but they know not trading since 2005 is an issue (maybe someone called them on it). So they combine 2 scams: do a couple of quickie, inexpensive transactions (or again, just leave themselves recent feedback) and try to rip people off that way.

Not to mention, I have been the victim of, or heard countless more stories of "insurance-type" fraud (item arrived "damaged", and buyer is demanding a refund...but doesn't want to file a claim with the carrier)...or attempts to ship items to addresses other than what's listed with PayPal, etc, etc, etc. I'm so cautious and jaded these days...even a buyer who wants to use his own shipping carrier, raises red-flags for me. What if they claim damage; you can't make them file a claim...it's their account!

Point is, what the hell can you trust over there these days? It's so bad, you have to look at just about everybody sideways; and what the hell kind of way is that to want to do business, or enjoy a hobby? I had 10 transactions a year, for 5 years over there; I think I had one minor issue. Since the "change-over"? 5 times as many problems in a couple of months, than I had in the previous 4 years (and again...more stories of others having trouble. I even know someone, who has a buyer demanding the original manual, that came with his $5,000 Krell mono-blocks...or he wants his money back, lol. Uh...they're mono-blocks; you plug in the IC, attach speaker-cables, and turn it on! lol. Not exactly "fraud"; probably more buyer's remorse, and the guy is trying to use a technicality to get his money back. It just speaks to the new class of people trading there now).

I guess you can tell; I'm just done, done, done. But I agree; it's still a challenge to find somewhere else to sell. Lots of sites are trying to take up the mantle; AudioCircle (not that they weren't there before, but hopefully more and more hobbyists are looking to trade there now), CAM and USAM (ditto...but again, the US-based site now). You can sell here at AVS, or other "message-board" sites. It's just my opinion; but we need to start weening ourselves off Audiogon, and make it Audiogon(e).
Edited by CDLehner - 8/26/12 at 11:01am

CD,

Nail on head. Great post. Agree 100%. It's dog eat dog out there right now.

And what IS up with the Agon feedback? It does appear that anyone can leave feedback without an associated transaction. That would completely devalue feedback entirely. And selling multi-thousand dollare equipment without trusted feedback is lunacy.

More AG shenanigans. I get an email, through AG a few days ago; guy wants to know if a pair of speakers I sold in February are still available? I was about to send him a courtesy email; like "sorry my man...long gone"...when I decide to check-out his user first. Registered in '05...no feedback! Don't even know the angle...but obviously something unsavory; spam, scam something. Scary; what a cesspool!

I bet they allow feedback to be left randomly to catch sales that happen outside of their system. Say someone creates an ad and gets an offer. He closes the ad and completes the sale outside of Audiogon to avoid the commission. Then the buyer leaves feedback and Agon charges him the commission.

So...Audiogon has taken a real beating in this thread; and rightly so. I've been as critical and outspoken as anyone...maybe even more-so; but I only write what I see and feel. However, that goes both ways; good and bad.

So I'd be disingenuous, if I didn't admit I see some improvements heading in the right direction. First, I like the look of the new feedback layout. For a while there, one of my notes was that it HAS to be in chronological order. For a while there, it wasn't; and it made it nearly impossible to follow (especially when, with the phishing scams and ID theft going on currently...one of the things I feel forced to do, is look for red-flags in feedback. You know...someone with good feedback, but hasn't traded in 7 years; etc). But Audiogon...if you're listening (and I hope someone is at least monitoring this thread for constructive criticism, even though it doesn't appear what-his-name posts anymore...which is a shame); the feedback has to be tied to something. A, you can't just let people "make-up" feedback (I see some, where positive feedback was left...because a seller supposedly let a buyer back-out of a transaction...lol. To be applauded, for his fairness; but hardly worthy of a score). B, feedback tied to an item...let's us see further into a member's trading history. If I'm buying an amp from this guy...does the fact that he's only sold speakers before influence me? If I'm buying a 5-figure piece, I want to know if this seller has only sold gear of $1k-2k before.

Also...I like the private messaging system. Sure, it needs some tweaks...and it doesn't appear to be a very "robust" TE...lol; but again, it's a step in the right direction. AG, you should also find a way to "mix" the featured ads on the front page. I tuned-in one day, and all like 8 featured ads, were for the same cable brand...lol. Don't let the commercial ads dominate the site; don't let a commercial seller, essentially buy the front page; it cheapens your site, and turns-off hobbyists.

Oh, and speaking of phishing; I got this email last week:

Dear user, Due to recent activity on your account, you will require a second confirmation of identity with us in order to enable further investigation of this matter. Your account is not suspended, but if in 48 hours after receiving this message your account is not confirmed we reserve the right to suspend your registration AudiogoN.
To prove your identity, Click here !

We apologize in advance for any inconvenience this may cause and we want to thank you for your cooperation.

Thank you for using AudiogoN
www.audiogon.com

The 'click here' hyperlink, went to a page that looked EXACTLY like the Audiogon sign-in page. Now, I'm in IT...and saw this scam a mile away; the website, was in fact appaudiogon...not app.audiogon, as the "real" Audiogon is. However, I am sure many, many, many...less savvy members could have/would have fallen for this; and this is likely, at least one of the sources...of the great many ID thefts that have happened since the site changed formats. In particular...members who have not traded in years, probably completely understand...why the new site might need them to re-register; and probably do so, without thinking twice about it. Beware! As I've said before; to me...a seller, where the member has good feedback, but hasn't traded in several years...sends up a serious red flag.

In conclusion, I think the new Audiogon just needs to remember who it's catering to. While once upon a time...when they were actually trying to communicate, and spin/damage-control the disastrous port-over; they claimed the "old" owners were still in charge...it doesn't appear so to me. It appears "computer" people...not audiophiles...took the site over, and are trying to run it without any thought for what actually gets traded there. It's not (fleec)eBay; if you forget your audience, your audience will forget you.
Edited by CDLehner - 9/8/12 at 6:03am

Hey guys,

I'm what's his name. :-) I've been hard at work trying to get features and improvements turned out with the rest of our developers and unfortunately wasn't checking up on this thread regularly. The phishing scams have been annoying. They've gone on for a loooong time, since the old site, and that's the primary reasons we had to rework the old direct user messaging system which just sent an email. The second you responded to something like that, the scammer would have your email and know that you were a user on the site. We usually get 5-10 phishing sites a week which is just a blip compared to what a lot of sites get, but it has been extremely annoying. These guys will normally send messages with stuff like "send me more pictures at suchnsuch@yahoo.com" to bait people into contacting them directly. I'm going to be writing up a long blog post about phishing scams and how to protect yourself. We've implemented some pretty strict email protocols since so if somebody does send a fraudulent email like that it shouldn't be able to come from @audiogon.com. We see lots of fake domain names imitating us (audiogonsupport.com, audiogon.co, audigon.com, etc.). The new direct message system will eventually allow you to respond directly to an email without even having to login as well as handle attachments for sending additional pictures, etc. That email you C&P'd above is a common one that is reported for these phishing sites and that is why we have a giant "Password Safety Tip — Remember, Audiogon will NEVER ask you to enter your password in an email unless you've clicked "Forgot Password?"" message on the top of the site. We've added notifications to your account whenever your email address was changed so that you can undo it and we're about to take it a step further with the security and let users set their accounts to lock if the login from a different geographic region than usual. We're also working on setting up an escrow service to allow you to have a greater amount of confidence when dealing with people who have low feedback. People really have no idea how dedicated some of these spammers and phishers can be. We've got systems upon systems and full time staff that do nothing but monitor for it. We're building a tool to make that more efficient for them behind the scenes. The only things that keep manual moderation even possible is that there is a listing fee. Without that, the cost to spam us to death would literally be zero.

I need to go back and read what has been newly posted since I last checked but regarding a couple of other details. The site launched too early. Far too early in fact. The biggest issue was that we couldn't flip the switch to turn the old site back on because it would have taken 2-3 months just to write the code to migrate data back in. The old site doesn't use a database, it uses flat files spread across 26 servers and writing code to map that data back into those files would have been a nightmare. Believe me, it was considered. The same people own Audiogon now that started it 14 years ago and they're good people. They weren't happy with the new launch either. Since auditing the code base over the last few months while working on it, there were some very experienced people writing code. Unfortunately, there was 1 guy on the team that consistently wrote code with exceptionally poor design and we've been balancing fixing it with new features. Some of that poor code is tied into lots of different parts of the site which makes fixing it more challenging because of all of the rewrites involved. Photo uploads for example (which we're almost done rebuilding and hope to relaunch in the next month). We're working to get it all repaired but we're balancing feature requests with time to construct and general site needs. There's a lot. The app errors that people still see on the site at times have a variety of causes. The ones in the "an underlying system that has to be rebuilt" category are the ones that are left and we've got an excellent programmer working on nothing but those now.

Regarding the feedback being tied to transactions - that is coming - soon. Because of the architecture of the old site we pretty much have to hand code every different type of data migration. Make no mistake, Audiogon is a huge 14 year old site. File formats have changed significantly over the years so it's a big project. For feedback, all feedback has to be manually moderated and the only hold up to tying it to transactions is setting it up to be submitted on the new site. The new site's administrative moderation tools are currently being built and once they are done we'll be dramatically turning up the sensitivity on our anti-spam monitoring systems so that anything that could potentially be spam will be manually monitored (listings and feedback alike). The old site still has the moderation tools in place, but it doesn't have access to the new site's transaction data and that's why feedback is "general" right now. Soon as that moderation system is in place on the new site, we'll have feedback w/ transactions back.

Everybody and I mean everybody here feels like we have a responsibility to the high-end audio community and we're working to get things back up to par and better. Mobile version of the site will be coming. iPhone/Android apps. A new interface to browse listings is coming soon as well as a the return of watch list with notes. Even saved-searches w/ email notifications. The site was going to HAVE to be rebuilt at some point for it's long term viability / stability. The code base wouldn't survive forever in it's old format because it expanded to a level of unmanageable. I've been a part of a lot of online communities over the years and I certainly understand what it feels like when a site that you're attached to gets changed. A lot of times the people that made those changes were oblivious to what happened. We know we messed up. The only thing that I can say about it at this point is that we're doing everything we can to make it better - from functionality, to security, to ensuring you can feel safe whenever you have a transaction on the site. There are some really slick features we have coming down the pipe over the next few months.

I'll review this thread over the next few days and see if I can answer some of the other questions that I know you guys have got. Need to get better about checking the thread but my heads usually so wrapped around code all day that I forget or just don't have time. Feel free to private message me on here if you have any specific questions.

^^^ Good stuff AB; as much as anything, it's good to have you back. I don't know if it's still going on, or the why of how it happened in the first place; but when you guys first ported over, and there were the blogs...our feedback was censored and/or ignored. That pissed a lot of users off. Sure, some will just carp, and carp...about fees, or bringing back the old site. I, for one, am over the old site; but I think by and large, we just want something that works.

Sure, we don't understand the challenges of the code or file-system; the behind-the-scenes stuff. But we can tell you what we need/want. How to make it work; well, that's what they pay you for, right?

I think an escrow service is a SPECTACULAR idea! And you need to get that feedback working better. Just keep an open line here, and we'll blast you with whatever is bothering us that particular week

Sorry to dig-up the old bones of this dead-and-buried thread; but for all of Audiogon's new-fangled ideas...can they, for the love of god, get a new host!! WhoTF hosts them; hamsterwheel.biz??

Half my clicks just spin, and spin, and spin; I have to click 2, 3 times (and no...not without waiting a suitable amount of time; I am NOT my Mom, lol...it's just I can now sense when the 'ole "system error occurred" is a'comin') to get to anything done.
Edited by CDLehner - 11/27/12 at 6:52am

Aramisbear, you still around? Care to explain all the "scammer alerts", popping-up ALL over AG these days? Are they coming from Audiogon, or are they coming from members? Look...I know you guys must get tired of hearing all the complaining; but seriously...are you telling me members are going into their own pockets, to alert other members about ALL the scams on Audiogon these days?

Besides that, it makes your site look like a damn, cheap billboard...on the side of the highway somewhere. How about a special section, where people can check to see if anyone is reporting id-phishing; do I have to think of everything for you guys? Honestly...it's been a year or better, right? Can't you guys get your stuff together?

Might as well jump in here with my $.02. I've been buying and selling on audiogon since 1999, I have a perfect 138 feedback score under this name. I've been very happy with my system for the last few years so haven't been upgrading or selling, but recently decided to try some of the new PS Audio Perfectwave power cables. I bought a couple, but they couldn't beat my Ridge Street Audio cables (it was going to be a tough contest), so I'm relisting them. These are the AC-10, which sell used in the $300-$400 range depending on the length. It took me 2 weeks to sell one of the cables, and its now been 3 weeks for the other, and the only bite I've had is a guy who offered me $200 for a cable listed at $300, which retails for $750. 3 years ago, I bought and sold a couple of the then-top of the line PS audio power cables, I sold them inside of 48 hours, with multiple requests. I mean its seriously ridiculous how little traffic there is now, and the quality of people has apparently plummeted as has been mentioned here several times.

A little story about how great the old audiogon community was: A few years I was going to buy some Ridge Street Poiema XLR cables for my ATC active speakers, this was a $1500 set of interconnects new, and the seller was looking to unload them for $400 or so. He also had 3 amazing Ridge Street Poiema power cables, all of which cost him $1,700 PER CABLE. He said he'd give me everything for $1,200. I told I really wanted to, but I'd just started my company and couldn't justify that kind of cash on audio cables. He said no problem, I'll send you everything now, and you can pay me $250 a month until we're squared up. I couldn't say no to that, so I took him up on it, and I ended up paying him back early just because it was such a generous and trusting thing to do. I also had another guy send me a free Rolling Stones DVD because who doesn't love the Stones, and he had an extra copy. Another guy I met up in person, and we talked music for half an hour and had a cup of coffee. That's how great Audiogon used to be, now I'm getting low-balled with ridiculous offers over an already very reasonably priced cable that stickers for more than 2x my asking price. A lowball in the good ol' days would have been 10% below asking, not 33%. The story about the guy wanting the manual for the krell mono-blocks is unbelievable.

The feedback system has to be the most ridiculous part. The fact that I have to go searching on how to leave someone feedback, and enter a whole new description of something is horrendous. I may be buying more on audiogon, but I have to be ready to keep it for a while, because selling things on there is now a whole new ball game, the days of high liquidity and fast sales are obviously long gone. Whats most ironic is that the one section that sorely needed an upgrade from a user's perspective is the forum. The forum is difficult to navigate, its a weird custom design, and could be so much better, yet it hasn't been touched, and is the same its always been.

Anyone else getting this lovely message?

I'm sorry; I know that I kind of single-handedly keep this thread going. And while it may seem petty to some, I think it's "important" to not forget.

Here we are...over a year since the thread was started; which means, well over a year since "the switch". AND THERE IS STILL NO decent feedback system! Feedback...the life-blood of an classified site like this; is still not tied to ANYTHING! ANY one can post feedback...of ANY kind...for ANY one.

I think the really sad thing here; is as bad as it is...it may still be the best we have. Man audiophiles suck! Why can't someone come up with a better site?

And the site continues to error out... but now "helpfully" displays an error message that attempts to divert blame to their hosting provider.

anyone knows the number of servers AG is running on? Is it just one box and the Heroku/Solr stuff?

looks like they forgot to renew the domain name...what a bunch of amateurs.

Looks like Audiogon is AudioGONE... I get a splash page, and when I use the search box, it gives me all kinds of random links as results....???

The demise of Audiogon really is a shame. I used to use it all the time. I would love to build my own version, I think it was a great business model...

Neah..they had a technical glitch..they are back now.