Oppo-95 or Sony XA5400ES - Page 11

DonH5O:
Thanks for your reply and further comments. As I mentioned, I have not noticed this problem with my BDP95 yet - owned it since August I think - and have had moderately heavy usage for music via USB, CD and SACD playback. For the most part, I've used the analog outs. So, either none of the CDs, .flac or .wav files in my music collection start sound at '0,' or the lag via analog is not noticeable. Any chance the lag is different for the BDP105 than for other models?

If I understand your description of the problem correctly, it is only the first track played that is affected? If you skip track one and begin on track 2, would you still have the lag (as then track 2 would be the 'first' track played)?

I don't yet have audio editing software with which to create a .wav file that begins at time zero to test, but I will be downloading something soon (I've been reading recommendations). If anyone can test the USB playback with a file that starts at time zero, I also would be interested.

NP. I was basically told the lag is the same all on models old and new (I was thinking of upgrading to a 105).

I am not sure the answer on the track 2 question but I think once it loads, the decoder is ready to go so there should be no lag. That jives with my memory of the way mine works (only track 1 exhibits the issue).

As I said earlier, it is very noticable on only a few CDS; I might notice if I listen for it on others, and on most it does not seem to arise. My assumption is that most disks have a little dead time before the music starts, and that is enough for the decoder. Especially for analog outputs; my case is worse because HDMI must also negotiate. I was told ~0.5s for HMDI, maybe "half a note" for analog. That is a significant difference. When I have time I plan to hook up the analog outputs again (would I had left them connected!)

Which brings up an interesting point: when I first got the Oppo I tested analog vs. HDMI to see if I could hear a difference. I could not, but I am pretty durn sure I would have noticed the start-up lag, so I surmise my initial testing did not use any CDs that had the issue. Unfortunately I pulled the analog patch cable to use elsewhere, and due to the size of my room there is ~no clearance behind to rewire. Just enough to sneak back and pull a plug; the Oppo is in a sealed compartment with airholes but not enough to get in and reconnect cables, unlike the AVR and power amp. Hindsight is just bloody great.

On my 95, I've gotten used to letting is start then hitting previous to actually get it to start at the beginning if the lag is bad. Most of the time its barely noticeable.

Yes, that usually helps, but not in the case that led me to ask Oppo and post the issue. Not enough help, anyway. And I want to re-iterate that the lag should be much less using analog outputs. And it depends on the disc, etc.

I haven't experienced it with analog though I may have a cd or two that would cause it. Like I mentioned, my amp turns on(takes about 5 seconds) when signal reaches its inputs, and that's only when the Oppo has started playing. And since it sounds so good I've never been anything but impressed with it. But if this drives one crazy, then I guess it's a no go.

DonH50, have you found any players that would be suitable? Cambridge makes some pretty nice ones.

Just Don will do (H = Herman, 50 = age when I joined, and now you know everything ).

I have not really looked, too tied up with other things (dress rehearsal tonight, concert Sunday, then got a last-minute gig that will eat up all next week with rehearsals and performances, plus usual work insanity, kid's school, etc. -- busy time of year!) And frankly I was looking forward to picking up a 105 and haven't had the heart to look. My next plan, now that I have a good test CD, is to hook up the analog outputs and see what happens.

I have several other players around the house I may also try. An older Sony DVD/VHS unit and really old Sony CD player I have do not exhibit the lag. I have another Sony BD player and a couple of cheapies around I plan to test, soon as I have some extra time. The alternative I was thinking about was the Emotiva player since it has gotten decent reviews and I have a bunch of Emotiva amps around the house. I was thinking of this Sony (the 5400), but really don't want to spend that much right now for a dedicated CD player (saving for a new DSLR, though my wife and kids think it's for the college fund, shhh!).

...or maybe the Oppo 115 will take care of it...

I realize this has all become a distraction to this thread, my apologies.

I replaced a Sony 5400ES with an Oppo 95 with the intention of selling the Sony. I'm having second thoughts, and I'm thinking about using the Sony as well as the Oppo. The Oppo uses the analog XLR stereo and 7.1 inputs of a Cary Cinema 11a (set to bypass). Would it be unfair to the Sony to use HDMI to the Cary? I've forgotten how HDMI from the Sony sounds, but IIRC it's pretty damn good. I'll be doing a listening session over the holidays in which we compare $50 vinyl (Jazz at the Pawnshop and Time Out) to their DSD counterparts. Thought it'd be fun to include the Sony, but the Cary has only a single pair of LR XLR inputs.

db

Of course, I could use the stereo RCA analog out from the Sony to the Cary, perhaps as a alternative to HDMI -- I have to consult the manual to see if both outputs are active.

db

All analog outputs are simultaneously active.  I understand there are some quirks to the Cary's treatment of DSD over HDMI.

Kal,

When I last used HDMI to the Cary, I recall missing a bit of initial music as addressed in the series of posts above and an occasional click when starting or stopping play. I attributed these artifacts to the implementation of HDMI used in the Cary. All these problems have been absent since I began using analog XLR stereo and 7.1. My original reason for using analog was that the Cary treats 88.2 as DSD whether DSD or LPCM, and provides no bass management. But I replaced a pair of KEF Ref 104/2s with 107/2s that have much greater LF extension, so I no longer need to invoke the subs for stereo. The Cary inputs are set to bypass so the Oppo provides bass management for 7.1. The eight RCA and two XLR cables that run between the Oppo 95 and the Cary turned out not to be the rat's nest I had envisioned.

db

The bass management problem is what I was thinking of.  

I haven't decided whether to sell the 5400ES, but when I reinstall it for comparison I may connect only its analog stereo output to a Cary input set to bypass, although connecting HDMI is easy and it can be deselected at the Sony remote.

db

I would keep both players. Go Sony XLR for stereo Cd/Sacd and Oppo RCA for HDCD, surround Sacd, DVDA, BD and the rest of it.
Edited by AVfile - 12/14/12 at 8:57pm

This weekend I connected the Sony using RCA stereo; the Oppo 85 is using XLR stereo. The Cary 11a inputs are set to bypass. If I decide to keep the Sony, I may change around which gets XLR as AVfile suggests.

As an aside, I listened to a $50 LP of Jazz at the Pawnshop for the first time since I installed the Proceed HPA 3 amp and KEF Ref 107/2 speakers with KUBE. I was greatly impressed. It seemed to have a greater sense of presence than DSD from the 95.

db

AVfile,

For short cable runs (18" or less) what's the value of using the balanced output of the Sony XA5400ES rather than that of the Oppo BDP-95? The Cary 11a has one pair of balanced analog inputs and a pair of balanced digital inputs. IIRC the balanced stereo output of the Oppo 95 gets special processing. I could buy a passive XLR switch so both the Oppo and Sony would have access to the balanced analog input of the Cary 11a if that were important for audio quality.

I've now spent some time comparing the sound of the Oppo BDP-95 and Sony XA5400ES using analog stereo outputs to a Cary 11a set to bypass. A wildly broad generalization is that the Oppo sounds a bit more detailed, the Sony a bit more relaxed. I've decided to keep them both in the system, so I'll have four sources for music, the two disc players, vinyl, and computer audio with a Mac Mini running Pure Music. As noted in earlier posts, the rest of the audio chain is Proceed HPA 2 & 3 amps driving KEF Ref 107/2 mains and Ref 102 center and surrounds.

db

The best of both worlds for your setup. The detail you hear (which I like) is referred to by some that don't prefer the Oppo as the Oppo being too bright. One mans detail is another man's bright. While I use the BDP-95 for all things musical 99% of the time there is part of me that still loves the Burr Brown implementation in my Denon DVD-5910CI from time to time.

Follow-up on the Oppo start-of-disc cut-off: Using Joy to the World by Empire Brass (EMI CDC-549097) and HDMI output, the first note is cut off. Using analog outputs, it is (just) there, confirming Oppo's claim that the delay would be less through analog outputs (no HDMI negotiation). There is still a short cut-off at the very beginning but that fraction of a second is silent in this CD (I am pretty sure). Most CDs (that I have anyway) have a very short silence at the very start so the initial cut-off is not noticeable; on some it is noticeable, and I just happened to pull a CD on which it was very noticeable when I brought up this issue.

The primary drawback for me (other than the hour or so spent getting the analog outputs hooked up) is that there is (obviously) no on-screen display, a feature I find very useful as I cannot read the Oppo's display from my listening position without my glasses (I do not normally wear them while listening). A minor annoyance.

I really hope Oppo's transport provider will fix this someday, or they can switch transports, but for now it's back to analog outs for me.

Sorry I am not familiar with the design of the Cary pre but since it has balanced in & out I assumed it is a true balanced circuit throughout. If so the balanced inputs should have the advantage regardless of cable length. I know that both sources have balanced outputs but I give preferential treatment to the Sony in this case because it is dedicated to 2-ch CD/Sacd while the Oppo could be dedicated to "everything else". Of course the best of both worlds would be both on balanced if you have the facility to do so.

The Cary 11a does use a true balanced circuit, so I suppose a passive XLR switch is appropriate to select either the Oppo or Sony as the source.

Further listening has confirmed my initial impression that the Oppo presents more detail. This is very evident in the drum solo of the Take Five track from Time Out by the Dave Brubeck Quartet. The sound of the strike on the side of the drum is sharp and percussive with the Oppo, more muted with the Sony. I'd guess the Sony may have a slight spectral hump in the lower mid frequencies that makes it sound more relaxed with a bit more forward staging of certain voices. It should be noted that the Oppo BDP-95, although it is capable of playing a variety of discs, differs from the BDP-93 in its analog circuitry, power supply, and SOTA DACs.

db

No.



The difference you've perceived is probably due to volume level differences. Try it again with them matched and see what happens.

We adjusted level for each comparison. Reducing attenuation 3 dB for the Sony seemed to equalize the sound level of the two players. The spectrum shown seems to show my guess about a mid frequency hump to be incorrect. During the comparison, we concurred with Kal Rubinson; our preference depended upon which disc we were playing. Also our comparisons were inconclusive. For example, I thought the Oppo sounded closer to vinyl when playing "Lady Be Good" from Jazz at the Pawnshop; my cousin, a pretty serious audiophile, thought the Sony sounded closer. All three sources were excellent, just a bit different. Unfortunately, we discovered that my turntable is not working for 45 rpm, so we couldn't compare the unplayed two-disc 45 rpm vinyl of Time Out with the excellent SACD. I've found I enjoy the Channel Classic recordings of Mahler Symphony 1 & 2 more when played on the Sony, but the SFO Songs with Orchestra more on the Oppo.

In any case, I've decided to keep both the Oppo BDP-95 and Sony XA5400ES in the system. For completeness, I plan to connect both to the Cary 11a via HDMI as well as analog. The desired input can be selected from the Cary remote.

db

Seemed to? If you heard the difference, it's probably due to levels not matched closely enough. Here's why:



Looks like you didn't read this thread from the beginning.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1385487/oppo-95-or-sony-xa5400es/120#post_21713319

Two comments: (1) I use a Radio Shack SPL meter. My doctoral training was in psychoacoutics, so I've had a lot of experience with General Radio and Bruel & Kjer sound pressure level meters and sound analyzers. Perhaps I should have used the term perceived rather than seem. (2) In any case, I'm pretty sure a dB difference in sound level would not account for the differences we heard, and I've done quite a bit of listening in lab settings using force-choice and confidence rating paradigms.

I worked with a couple of acousticians, both former presidents of the ASA., whose advice was to never measure home acoustic characteristics, because there are too many confounding variables. All of our free field measurements were in a deep anechoic chamber, not a comfortable place for listening to music. One of the acousticians was big on slap tests.

I had read this lengthy thread from the beginning, and reviewed your contentious exchange regarding the adequacy of a Radio Shack sound level meter. I can only guess at the cost of a B&K meter, and the ones we used were pretty cumbersome when the filters were attached.

db

It is well known that acoustical measurements do not have the relaibility or resolution required to match levels in a proper listening comparison of CD players or amplifiers or other electronics devices.


Where was that doctoral progam given? It sounds like you missed some of the basics.

I hope to God and I mean this very seriously, that you are BSing about that PhD training in psychoacoustics because the above statement should not last even 10 seconds among people who are knowledgeable about psychoacoustics.

I could either recant everything I wrote in the face of such incredible wisdom or standby my statements. I realize my former post sounded defensive, but i stand by everything I've written in the series of posts. My intent had been to share my observations on listening to the Oppo 95 and Sony 5400, not to engage in contentious debate. One guy sites a link to his claim that a Radio Shack SPL meter is inadequate for setting sound level, another claims no acoustical measurements are adequate and questions my doc and post doc work because I doubt the role a dB of difference in music level might have had on our observations. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Opinions, please. I've had enough.

db

Let me get this straight, you are sure about something that's only speculated but not confirmed? The measurements disagree with your conclusion and so do level matched ABX of contemporary disc players. A +- $10 voltmeter from amazon dot com would have sufficed. I'm sure you knew that after reading this lengthy thread from the beginning and my contentious exchange, right?

If that's what you want to do... My intent has been to share my observation of your observation and that's what I want to do. As you may have already noticed, it's just circling around and not necessarily continuous debate because someone brings up the same issue that's been brought up earlier in the thread despite his claim that he had read it from the beginning. If you meant "setting sound level" as in matching the levels between 2 disc players, it's been already noted why. If you meant "a dB" of difference as in 1db (one decibel) discrepancy between disc players, that's been shown to cause audible difference. You can even compare 2 of the same model players and set them at 1db difference and see what happens. See above.

AVfile,

Following your suggestion and after some consultation I've decided to use a passive balanced switcher so both the Oppo and Sony can connect to the balanced input of the Cary 11a. When the Sony was the only CD/SACD player in the system, I used balanced analog for stereo and HDMI for surround.

db

It has become quite tiresome to me reading this board. Too many evangelists who won't or perhaps it's their neurosis that prevents them from allowing one to have an opinion or a result that they disagree with. At any rate, thanks for sharing your impressions here, some of us still appreciate such posts and don't feel the need to start another pissing contest.