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Oppo-95 or Sony XA5400ES - Page 13

post #361 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post


Because I hear differences between the 3 transports in my setup via my Zektor MAS7.1 audio switch. So I am satisfied that I do hear differences.smile.gif

Transports don't have DACs.  A transport plus DACs is a player.

 

Arny said "all transports that meet reasonable quality standards sound the same" and you counter with arguments about players (with DACs), not transports.  


Edited by Kal Rubinson - 12/30/12 at 3:54pm
post #362 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

My opinion is based on something other than the dogmatic rigid zealotry that yours is based on.
Which one? Can you quote it?
post #363 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by diomania View Post

I see. So, you don't like to use a phrase like "In my opinion" or "I think". By the way, what is your opinion based on, fiction?

My opinion is based on something other than the dogmatic rigid zealotry that yours is based on.

How do you know that?

Are you the world's judge of dogmatic rigid zealotry?

What actual reliable evidence are you bringing to the discussion?

And BTW it takes far more effort to do reliable listening tests of DACs and transports than just borrowing equipment from dealers and hooking them up and doing some random listening.

Here is a link to detailed information about some DAC related tests that some friends of mine did:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0

What have you done that compares?
post #364 of 429
Am I the the world's judge of dogmatic rigid zealotry? Are you for real? Stop preaching.
post #365 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Am I the the world's judge of dogmatic rigid zealotry? Are you for real? Stop preaching.

You seem to like to call names like "zealot" and "preacher' as opposed to staying on topic and answering reasonable questions.

Just to jog your memory from less than an hour ago, why not try to provide some reasonable answers to these questions?

(1) What actual reliable evidence are you bringing to the discussion?



(2) It takes far more effort to do reliable listening tests of DACs and transports than just borrowing equipment from dealers and hooking them up and doing some random listening. Here is a link to detailed information about some DAC related tests that some friends of mine did:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0

What have you done that compares?
post #366 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

AVfile,
Following your suggestion and after some consultation I've decided to use a passive balanced switcher so both the Oppo and Sony can connect to the balanced input of the Cary 11a. When the Sony was the only CD/SACD player in the system, I used balanced analog for stereo and HDMI for surround.
db

Good stuff and I appreciate your analysis. Although people may have different methods doesn't invalidate their results. The measurement crowd / scientific types will no doubt object to different methods and assume everyone else is a newbie. School is for science and theory; real world is engineering which is all about approximation and assumption.

What's important is you tested the players in a manner and environment that you will be ultimately using them. Even if the setup (volume level) is flawed it is the "right" setup for you because that's what you will be hearing when the testing is over.
Edited by AVfile - 12/31/12 at 8:20am
post #367 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Good stuff and I appreciate your analysis. Although people may have different methods doesn't invalidate their results. The measurement crowd / scientific types will no doubt object to different methods and assume everyone else is a newbie. School is for science and theory; real world is engineering which is all about approximation and assumption.

I think most engineers would take issue with that statement - the engineering I'm familiar with deals in science, fact, and precision. Assumptions and approximations often lead to incorrect and potentially dangerous outcomes.
post #368 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

The measurement crowd / scientific types will no doubt object to different methods and assume everyone else is a newbie.
Is that your assumption?
post #369 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I think most engineers would take issue with that statement - the engineering I'm familiar with deals in science, fact, and precision. Assumptions and approximations often lead to incorrect and potentially dangerous outcomes.

My point is the RS meter, even uncalibrated, is perfectly capable of making repeatable RELATIVE measurements. It reads the exact same value every time at mid-range frequencies. So for level matching at mid-range frequencies it is just fine. Certainly within any possible range of adjustment on the preamp and therefore ultimate usage of the equipment when listening.
post #370 of 429
How did this overarching statement about engineering:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Good stuff and I appreciate your analysis. Although people may have different methods doesn't invalidate their results. The measurement crowd / scientific types will no doubt object to different methods and assume everyone else is a newbie. School is for science and theory; real world is engineering which is all about approximation and assumption.

Become this?:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

My point is the RS meter, even uncalibrated, is perfectly capable of making repeatable RELATIVE measurements. It reads the exact same value every time at mid-range frequencies. So for level matching at mid-range frequencies it is just fine. Certainly within any possible range of adjustment on the preamp and therefore ultimate usage of the equipment when listening.

The RS meter is not sufficient to level match components. It isn't accurate enough, particularly given the potential impact of room and position variances.
post #371 of 429
enough

move on please
post #372 of 429
Quite a diversion this thread took...

Last follow-up from my tests: I still cannot hear any difference between analog outputs and HDMI from my Oppo BDP-83 now that I have the analog outputs hooked up again. I did not try to do any special level-matching, just loosely matched relative levels at 1 kHz using my (gasp!) RS meter and a test CD. I find the lack of on-screen display quite annoying, but less so than losing the first note of a song.

I may not hear any difference because (a) my Pioneer has (had) among the lowest jitter on the HDMI inputs of any AVR; (b) the analog signal is converted inside the Pioneer as I use room correction (MCACC); and/or, (c) there really just is not enough difference for my ears of clay to hear.

Equipment:
Oppo BDP-83, HDMI and analog outputs
Pioneer SC-27
dbx 223 crossover, L-R design at 50 Hz to subs and mains
Emotiva XPA-2 (after the crossover)
Magnepan MG-IIIa
Rythmik F12 (a pair, in parallel with the MG-IIIa’s, after the active crossover)
Heavily treated room, about 13' w x 17.5' l x 8.5' h, speakers on 13' front wall
Frequency response tweaked from initial MCACC using Earthworks measurement mic and RplusD SW; about +/-6 dB (narrow) peaks using 1/12th-octave smoothing, 20-20k Hz
post #373 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Quite a diversion this thread took...
Last follow-up from my tests: I still cannot hear any difference between analog outputs and HDMI from my Oppo BDP-83 now that I have the analog outputs hooked up again. I did not try to do any special level-matching, just loosely matched relative levels at 1 kHz using my (gasp!) RS meter and a test CD. I find the lack of on-screen display quite annoying, but less so than losing the first note of a song.

Don-

 

Consider using both the analog and HDMI outputs at the same time.  If your AVR will permit, set it up on one to use HDMI for video and analog for audio.  If not, connect the HDMI directly to the display.

post #374 of 429
Hmmm... Thanks Kal, I will look into that. I am not sure my AVR is that flexible, but I might have another HDMI input on the TV. Currently the HDMI output is used for DVD/BD, and analog for CD on my AVR (Pioneer SC-27). I should be able to rig up something... I need to check the Oppo manual; perhaps I can get its GUI via the component outputs.

It sucks having to admit getting old enough to have problems reading the Oppo display from only 8' away...
post #375 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

It sucks having to admit getting old enough to have problems reading the Oppo display from only 8' away...

I fully appreciate your (our) situation.  Just bought a 24" LCD just for that.

post #376 of 429
Happy New Year! Kal.
post #377 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post

Happy New Year! Kal.

Thanks.  Hope its a good one for all of us.

post #378 of 429
Same to you Kal!

Also, I was able to use the composite video out from my Oppo so now I have on-screen display again. Thanks for your advice -- I should have thought of that, duh!!!

Incidentally, or rather coincidentally, a friend asked about an Emotiva amplifier review and I pulled one from Stereophile -- guess who's? smile.gif

In the spirit of music - Don
post #379 of 429
Looks like Sony is continuing to produce the SCD-XA5400ES player. Noticed it is listed on their site with estimated ship date of January 10, 2013:
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665537319&langId=-1&XID=O:remark_HAV_criteo&catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_Televisions#overview

Seems like this player has been compared to just about every popular SACD capable player out there. Would like to get comparisons between Oppo BDP-105 and SCD-XA5400ES.
post #380 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

Looks like Sony is continuing to produce the SCD-XA5400ES player. Noticed it is listed on their site with estimated ship date of January 10, 2013:
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&productId=8198552921665537319&langId=-1&XID=O:remark_HAV_criteo&catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&identifier=S_Televisions#overview

Seems like this player has been compared to just about every popular SACD capable player out there. Would like to get comparisons between Oppo BDP-105 and SCD-XA5400ES.

Has Sony ever sold a universal player? I would at least audition an SCD-XA5400ES if it was a universal player.
post #381 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Has Sony ever sold a universal player? I would at least audition an SCD-XA5400ES if it was a universal player.

If being a universal player is a hold out for you, you may be depriving yourself of some great musical moments.
post #382 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaby View Post

If being a universal player is a hold out for you, you may be depriving yourself of some great musical moments.

I don't doubt that the XA5400ES may be a stellar player, but I have some some stellar players (Denon DVD-5910CI and an Oppo BDP-105) in my current setup and auditioning the Sony for me at this point would be more about curiosity.smile.gif
post #383 of 429
I'm really curious how the Sony SCD-XA5400ES 2ch XLR OUT's compares to Oppo BDP-105 2ch XLR OUT's?
post #384 of 429
If you have the rack space, I highly recommend the XA5400ES and BDP-S5000ES combo. It's a shame the Blu-ray/SACD functionality wasn't combined together (like the old PS3 fat). With the XA5400ES the engineers were able to focus on two channel analog performance. Both SACD and CD are rendered flawlessly, particularly through the XLRs. (The S5000ES may lack 3D, but it has outrageously good picture quality, noticeably sharper than the PS3 and LG BH200 I have on hand). I know everyone is in love with Oppo, and there's little doubt they make the best universal players. In the realm of separates, the Japanese old guard still know what they are doing. I've been quietly slipping Blu-rays and SACDs into these machines without a single problem.

I've probably owned over 100 different electronic components over the years. These two ES models were designed by the Sony A-Team and it shows in the look, feel, and performance. I would consider them to be modern day classics. But the ES product line is shrinking, and the build quality in some cases has been shameful (esp. more recent BD models). The trend does not look good for 'the elevated standard', so if you want in on some of the last 'big iron' components, now is the time. Consider this: prices on eBay for both models have trended up in the last year. Interestingly, the Sony BDP-CX7000ES 400 disc changer was obviously discontinued too early, as prices have now skyrocketed to $4000.
post #385 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahester View Post

If you have the rack space, I highly recommend the XA5400ES and BDP-S5000ES combo. It's a shame the Blu-ray/SACD functionality wasn't combined together (like the old PS3 fat). With the XA5400ES the engineers were able to focus on two channel analog performance. Both SACD and CD are rendered flawlessly, particularly through the XLRs. (The S5000ES may lack 3D, but it has outrageously good picture quality, noticeably sharper than the PS3 and LG BH200 I have on hand). I know everyone is in love with Oppo, and there's little doubt they make the best universal players. In the realm of separates, the Japanese old guard still know what they are doing. I've been quietly slipping Blu-rays and SACDs into these machines without a single problem.

I've probably owned over 100 different electronic components over the years. These two ES models were designed by the Sony A-Team and it shows in the look, feel, and performance. I would consider them to be modern day classics. But the ES product line is shrinking, and the build quality in some cases has been shameful (esp. more recent BD models). The trend does not look good for 'the elevated standard', so if you want in on some of the last 'big iron' components, now is the time. Consider this: prices on eBay for both models have trended up in the last year. Interestingly, the Sony BDP-CX7000ES 400 disc changer was obviously discontinued too early, as prices have now skyrocketed to $4000.
thanks for your input!

I have purchased an Oppo BDP-105. Also using new Marantz AV8801 pre-pro. I plan to dedicate SCD-XA5400ES XLR OUT's to AV8801 XLR INP's, will use exclusively for CD's and SACD's (I'm sort of convinced this is the way to go, although I would still like to compare BDP-105 XLR OUT's. I will connect 2ch RCA OUT's to AV8801 RCA INP's). I will use the BDP-105 primarily for BluRay's, DVD's, DVD-A's, DTS-Audio's, HDCD's (will also experiement playing SACD's via-HDMI, supposedly very good performance).
Edited by WestCoastD - 1/24/13 at 12:39pm
post #386 of 429
You really should compare the 5400ES and 105 balanced outputs. I've done quite a bit of listening to both. The 95 got the XLR, the 5400ES HDMI and RCA. The Sony sits on a shelf just above the processor, so the unbalanced cables are short. Individual preference may be system dependent. I use is a Cary Cinema 11a (analog inputs set to bypass) to KEF 107/2 KUBE to Proceed HPA 3 (500 watts per channel into 4 ohms) to KEF 107/2s. Using the Cary remote, I could compare HDMI, balanced, and unbalanced outputs from the Sony by selecting the input. I preferred HDMI, with DSD pushed to the Cary DACs. The HDMI interchange between the Oppo and Cary seems to have more artifacts (clicks and pops) than the between the Sony and the Cary.

db
post #387 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

You really should compare the 5400ES and 105 balanced outputs. I've done quite a bit of listening to both. The 95 got the XLR, the 5400ES HDMI and RCA. The Sony sits on a shelf just above the processor, so the unbalanced cables are short. Individual preference may be system dependent. I use is a Cary Cinema 11a (analog inputs set to bypass) to KEF 107/2 KUBE to Proceed HPA 3 (500 watts per channel into 4 ohms) to KEF 107/2s. Using the Cary remote, I could compare HDMI, balanced, and unbalanced outputs from the Sony by selecting the input. I preferred HDMI, with DSD pushed to the Cary DACs. The HDMI interchange between the Oppo and Cary seems to have more artifacts (clicks and pops) than the between the Sony and the Cary
interesting, thanks. I've read mostly good things about Cary Cinema line analog performance. The DSD thing still confuses me, does the Cary actually decode DSD? Or does it convert DSD-to_LPCM?

I will definitely make an attempt swap and compare XLR OUT's on both units.
post #388 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

The DSD thing still confuses me, does the Cary actually decode DSD? Or does it convert DSD-to_LPCM?.

In my setup, the Oppo BDP-95 "decodes" DSD to analog; the Sony sends DSD via HDMI to the Cary DACs or uses its internal DACs for analog output. I don't think there is conversion to LPCM unless you set that as an option in the Oppo menu. The LPCM option in the Oppo menu provides bass management which DSD does not. But a Cary bug causes it to treat LPCM as DSD and provides no bass management. LPCM with analog output, on the other hand, does provide bass management. I use DSD with analog output, however, because my speakers extend to a usable 20 Hz and don't need to be supplemented by the subs for music. The DACs in the Oppo BDP-95 are superb -- analog is the reason for buying a 95 rather than a 93 or a 105 rather than a 103. It seems to me that the DACs of the Cary are superior to those of the Sony, and the HDMI interaction between the Cary and Sony is well behaved, so I use HDMI but leave unbalanced analog connected.

The Cary Cinema 11a is buggy, but is capable of fine sound quality, and the bugs that annoyed me are gone with analog input. It has the flexibility to set its analog inputs to bypass so analog input is not digitized. With the Cary analog inputs in bypass mode, the Oppo provides processing like speaker configuration and so forth; the Sony has only stereo analog output, so I rely on HDMI for multichannel and that invokes the full range of Cary processing.

db
post #389 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

In my setup, the Oppo BDP-95 "decodes" DSD to analog; the Sony sends DSD via HDMI to the Cary DACs or uses its internal DACs for analog output. I don't think there is conversion to LPCM unless you set that as an option in the Oppo menu. The LPCM option in the Oppo menu provides bass management which DSD does not. But a Cary bug causes it to treat LPCM as DSD and provides no bass management. LPCM with analog output, on the other hand, does provide bass management. I use DSD with analog output, however, because my speakers extend to a usable 20 Hz and don't need to be supplemented by the subs for music. The DACs in the Oppo BDP-95 are superb -- analog is the reason for buying a 95 rather than a 93 or a 105 rather than a 103. It seems to me that the DACs of the Cary are superior to those of the Sony, and the HDMI interaction between the Cary and Sony is well behaved, so I use HDMI but leave unbalanced analog connected.

The Cary Cinema 11a is buggy, but is capable of fine sound quality, and the bugs that annoyed me are gone with analog input. It has the flexibility to set its analog inputs to bypass so analog input is not digitized. With the Cary analog inputs in bypass mode, the Oppo provides processing like speaker configuration and so forth; the Sony has only stereo analog output, so I rely on HDMI for multichannel and that invokes the full range of Cary processing
interesting info, thanks. It is nice having a pure analog bypass mode as the Cary Cinema 11a provides (a true analog path). I understand the Oppo BDP-95 and BDP-105 really shine in this situation. I'm using a Marantz AV8801, not sure if it's pure direct mode has digital conversions?
Edited by WestCoastD - 2/7/13 at 2:23pm
post #390 of 429
I'm planning to connect DirecTV HD-DVR via HDMI and Mac Mini via asynchronous USB to an Oppo BDP-105 that will replace the BDP-95. I will use the analog output of the 105 as I do that of the 95. I have been experimenting with the LPCM option for SACDs, and I prefer it for certain recordings. Some posts have suggested the audio of the 105 is superior to that of the 95, but I'm not looking for that nor do I expect it. The HDMI and asynchronous USB inputs of the 105 are what I want.

db
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