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HK-3490 or TX-8050

post #1 of 23
1/7/12 at 10:00pm
Thread Starter 
Hello,

I have been reading on various forums for a few days now and I don't know if I have run into a case of paralysis by analysis or not. I have an old Sony HT Receiver hooked up to my Record Player and a MP3 player. It is continually cutting out. I can firmly press various spots on the front panel to get it to kick back in, but it is truly annoying.

Anyways, I have been look at the HK3490 and the TX-8050 as a replacement, since I am not using any Home Theater functions (as I won't ever have a TV set up in that room) I figure a Stereo receiver is a better choice. Is this a valid train of thought, or are there AVRs out there in the same price range I should consider even though I am only hooking up two speakers for the forseeable future?

With all things equal, is the potential quality of sound produced by these two receivers going to make most folks happy? Am I overthinking this? Is it likely that either receiver is a good choice?

I probably would like the networking features of the Onkyo, but I could work around that with my MP3 player or even a network media player (like a WDTV or Popcorn Hour) and a small monitor. If the HK was that much better, I would probably just go for it since it is a little cheaper.

Build quality and life expectancy of either unit has spooked me into looking for an extended warranty, so I am not sure those qualities would lead me to one or the other.

Anyways, I appreciate you taking the time to read my post. I am curious to know your opinion.

Thanks.
Alex
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post #2 of 23
1/9/12 at 4:20pm
Thread Starter 
Based on all the PM advice I received, I went with the Onkyo. Thanks everyone!
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post #3 of 23
1/9/12 at 10:37pm
Wow! Quick turnaround. I would have recommended the HK 3490, but I'm hopeful you'll be happy with the Onkyo. I think the decision to get a stereo unit was the right one in any case.

Best of luck.
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post #4 of 23
1/17/12 at 4:03am
At a slight risk of hijacking this thread, what is the best solution to running this with a sub. Neither receiver has a built-in crossover that I can find.
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post #5 of 23
1/17/12 at 11:01am
You're correct that those are full range signals going out on those sub outputs. The intent is that you'll mate them with the now ubiquitous active sub with its own crossover and amplifier. Then you simply use the sub's built in crossover to set the frequency at which the sub begins to operate. Usually this is a rotary dial, sometimes a switch or series of swtiches, for various crossover points. Typical values might be from 40 Hz to 150 Hz, and you decide where you want the sub to become active producing low frequency sound below by the point you choose.

You cannot connect these sub outputs to a passive (nonpowered) sub, except by way of an external amplifier. In that case, the sub will get a full range signal, which is not a good idea, unless you have an external crossover you can use.
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post #6 of 23
1/17/12 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

You're correct that those are full range signals going out on those sub outputs. The intent is that you'll mate them with the now ubiquitous active sub with its own crossover and amplifier. Then you simply use the sub's built in crossover to set the frequency at which the sub begins to operate. Usually this is a rotary dial, sometimes a switch or series of swtiches, for various crossover points. Typical values might be from 40 Hz to 150 Hz, and you decide where you want the sub to become active producing low frequency sound below by the point you choose.

You cannot connect these sub outputs to a passive (nonpowered) sub, except by way of an external amplifier. In that case, the sub will get a full range signal, which is not a good idea, unless you have an external crossover you can use.

So just to make sure I understand you correctly let me build a path that the music takes. The sound leaves my motherboard through digital coaxial, then the hk 3490/onkyo tx-8050 runs the sound through the DAC, then it amplifies the full range signal which is run with speaker wire to the back of the sub, meanwhile I connect the amp to the sub with subwoofer cable through the sub line out. Then the sub runs the amplified signal through a crossover and also amplifies the sub line in signal. Am I getting this correctly?
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post #7 of 23
1/17/12 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06 View Post

So just to make sure I understand you correctly let me build a path that the music takes. The sound leaves my motherboard through digital coaxial, then the hk 3490/onkyo tx-8050 runs the sound through the DAC, then it amplifies the full range signal which is run with speaker wire to the back of the sub, meanwhile I connect the amp to the sub with subwoofer cable through the sub line out. Then the sub runs the amplified signal through a crossover and also amplifies the sub line in signal. Am I getting this correctly?

I'll edit just a bit.

1. The sound leaves your motherboard through digital coaxial.
2. The HK 3490 runs the sound through its DAC.
3a. It sends the full range signal through its pre-amp to its internal stereo amplifier and through its speaker connections via speaker wire to the main speakers;
--AND--
3b. It sends a full range, unamplified signal to the sub out RCA jacks that you connect via an RCA cable (or two with two subs) to the sub(s) with subwoofer cable(s). The sub takes the unamplified signal through its internal crossover and runs it into its own amp to amplify the sub line in signal.
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post #8 of 23
1/18/12 at 3:18am
So there is no way to run the main speaker's signal through the sub's internal crossover?

In that case how do I set up a good sounding 2.1 system with either amplifier? I just know that my Cambridge s30 bookshelves can't handle a full range signal. I should mention that I have a DAC available, if that makes any difference.
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post #9 of 23
1/18/12 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06 View Post

So there is no way to run the main speaker's signal through the sub's internal crossover?

In that case how do I set up a good sounding 2.1 system with either amplifier? I just know that my Cambridge s30 bookshelves can't handle a full range signal. I should mention that I have a DAC available, if that makes any difference.

Depends on the sub.

Some have line level inputs only, some have line level inputs and outputs, and some have speaker level inputs and outputs. With the first type, you cannot pass the signal back out to anything else. With the other two types you may be able to, depending on the sub's capabilities.

What sub do you have (or are considering)?
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post #10 of 23
1/18/12 at 12:15pm
This sub amp has both line level (listed as "low level') and speaker level (listed as "high level") inputs and outputs.

http://www.apexjr.com/ApexJunior.htm

This sub amp has a low level input but no output, and speaker level inputs and outputs.

http://www.apexjr.com/MS8A.htm

This sub amp only has low level inputs and outputs.

http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

You get the idea; there are many configurations. Any sub that has speaker level ins and outs will do what you're asking, but then that begs the question of why you'd need the HK 3490, since you'd only be using the speaker connections on the back of the receiver and would not need the line level sub out jacks. You could use any receiver, including the 3490 but you can find less costly two-channel receivers that will work this way.

Your signal path would be the receiver's speaker posts to the subwoofer speaker level ins, through the sub's crossover, where the LF is sent to the sub's amp and the HF is sent out the speaker level outs to your speakers (NOT back to your receiver).

A sub that has both line level ins and outs might work, if the receiver you choose has pre-outs and main ins, as the 3490 does.

Your signal path would be the receiver's pre-outs to the subwoofer's line level ins to the sub's crossover, where the LF is sent to the sub's amp and the HF is sent to the line level outs back to your receiver's main ins where it's sent to the receiver's amp and out the speaker connections to your speakers.

Got it?
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post #11 of 23
1/18/12 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Any sub that has speaker level ins and outs will do what you're asking

Do they? I've always wondered if those types of subs have a high and low pass filter, or merely pass through the full range to the main speakers. For example, the oaudio bash amplifier and the MS 8A specifically says "Lowpass Crossover" in the specs at the bottom of the pages. I don't think they will do what the OP is looking for because there's no advantage in hooking the speakers through the sub if there is no high pass filter. The OP would be better off just running the speakers directly to the receiver and using the sub out from the receiver to the amplifier--passing through the sub instead might introduce additional distortion to the signal (even though minute).
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post #12 of 23
1/18/12 at 7:00pm
I guess then my question is, what is the point of either receiver if they don't have internal crossovers? My other question is, simply what equipment do I need to properly run a 2.1 stereo system? Hopefully I can buy said equipment for less than 300-400 USD.
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post #13 of 23
1/18/12 at 8:52pm
If you want bass management, look for a Denon 1612. In a recent review, "the AVR-1612's left channel, from DVD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 103.9 watts and 1% distortion at 118.5 watts."

Plenty of output in 2 channel.

Otherwise, with the 2 channel receivers, you just set the sub's crossover at the low frequency roll off of the S30s. Probably somewhere in the lower 50hz range would be a guess.
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post #14 of 23
1/18/12 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06 View Post


In that case how do I set up a good sounding 2.1 system with either amplifier? I just know that my Cambridge s30 bookshelves can't handle a full range signal. I should mention that I have a DAC available, if that makes any difference.

This receiver has analog bass management - Outlaw
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

However, if you want to save money - get a Denon surround
receiver.
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post #15 of 23
1/18/12 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Do they? I've always wondered if those types of subs have a high and low pass filter, or merely pass through the full range to the main speakers. For example, the oaudio bash amplifier and the MS 8A specifically says "Lowpass Crossover" in the specs at the bottom of the pages. I don't think they will do what the OP is looking for because there's no advantage in hooking the speakers through the sub if there is no high pass filter. The OP would be better off just running the speakers directly to the receiver and using the sub out from the receiver to the amplifier--passing through the sub instead might introduce additional distortion to the signal (even though minute).

Well, the counter to that would be what would happen without a sub? All the info would go to the stereo pair anyway, and simply not be adequately reproduced. We hook up speakers with 60 Hz to 18 kHz capabilities and speakers with 30 Hz to 26 kHz capabilities to the same receiver outputs all the time, and it's up to the internal, passive crossovers to handle the full range signal.

Manufacturers cannot anticipate--only recommend occasionally--what speaker response characteristics will be used with their products. They expect the speaker manufacturer to build crossovers that work with their speakers.

So in a practical sense, if a 25 Hz signal is sent to a speaker that is -10 dB at 38 Hz, it's not going to be reproduced, at least not as a 25 Hz sound.

Your point about no high pass filter in a sub is well taken, but in the end it makes no difference to the stereo pair. It would have received that input anyway. What does change is that the low pass filter allows the subwoofer to more accurately and adequately handle the low frequency sound that is going to be lost in the stereo mains.

The trick is to get the low pass filter in the sub to come into play at the Hz where the mains start to roll off at the bottom end.

Yes, it's not ideal, but we're not talking about an expensive, high end system here, just a good system to listen to computer music files.
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post #16 of 23
1/18/12 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06 View Post

I guess then my question is, what is the point of either receiver if they don't have internal crossovers? My other question is, simply what equipment do I need to properly run a 2.1 stereo system? Hopefully I can buy said equipment for less than 300-400 USD.

Maybe you can't with what you've got or want to get.

In a spare guest room I have a 2.1 system as follows:

HK 3490 bought refurbished from Harman for under $300.
HK The Bridge iPod dock for free with HK 3490.
JBL L100 speakers I bought new in 1970 for $546 (but could be any bookshelf).
JBL HTPS400 THX 1000W subwoofer bought off ebay for $250.
Technics SL-QD33 turntable bought for a few hundred $$$ a long time ago.

The L100s run full range driven by the two channels of the 3490 receiver's amp. Their response is down -3 dB at 50 Hz. The HTPS400 is connected via RCA cable to the 3490 sub out, and the sub's low pass filter is set to about 60 Hz, where the transition from mains to sub is pretty seamless.

So I can play vinyl and MP3/AAC/Apple Lossless files on one system, nearly full range from 23 Hz to 19 kHz no problem.

In your case, it may in fact be cheaper to buy an older HT receiver and simply use the stereo section of the pre and amp and leave everything else idle. You can, as has been written, get some bass management along with that, and since you're not using the multichannel capabilities, you won't be bothered by the out of date surround features.

In fact, I'm using a very nice but outdated surround processor and a pair of big a$$ power amps to run a pair of $44k+ speakers as a stereo pair with two subs for just that reason.
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post #17 of 23
1/18/12 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

Well, the counter to that would be what would happen without a sub? All the info would go to the stereo pair anyway, and simply not be adequately reproduced. We hook up speakers with 60 Hz to 18 kHz capabilities and speakers with 30 Hz to 26 kHz capabilities to the same receiver outputs all the time, and it's up to the internal, passive crossovers to handle the full range signal.

Manufacturers cannot anticipate--only recommend occasionally--what speaker response characteristics will be used with their products. They expect the speaker manufacturer to build crossovers that work with their speakers.

So in a practical sense, if a 25 Hz signal is sent to a speaker that is -10 dB at 38 Hz, it's not going to be reproduced, at least not as a 25 Hz sound.

Your point about no high pass filter in a sub is well taken, but in the end it makes no difference to the stereo pair. It would have received that input anyway. What does change is that the low pass filter allows the subwoofer to more accurately and adequately handle the low frequency sound that is going to be lost in the stereo mains.

The trick is to get the low pass filter in the sub to come into play at the Hz where the mains start to roll off at the bottom end.

Yes, it's not ideal, but we're not talking about an expensive, high end system here, just a good system to listen to computer music files.

Sorry. I understand how all this works, but I don't understand what you are trying to tell me. You answered the OPs question before, but his question wouldn't provide the solution that he was looking for. It appears he wants a crossover that will filter his speakers, too, so he could choose to set the crossover for his setup say at 80hz. No sense in buying a sub with speaker level input and outputs in that situation. No need to wire them that way when you can send the sub out to the sub.
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post #18 of 23
1/19/12 at 10:34am
Well, hopefully he can get something out of one or the other of us that will help. In any event, I think we both agree he can't get what he wants from the two stereo receivers in question.
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post #19 of 23
1/20/12 at 1:40pm
I just gave up and got the Onkyo. If it doesn't work as well as I like I can always return it. Thanks for explaining everything though.
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post #20 of 23
1/20/12 at 2:20pm
Good luck. Hope it works out.
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post #21 of 23
1/24/12 at 3:59am
Is it me, or is the Onkyo's sound bright, thin and kinda lifeless? I've owned a 3490 before and I remember the sound being on the warmer side and fuller. I'm not happy with the sound of the Onkyo but I love all the features.
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post #22 of 23
1/24/12 at 7:19am
HKs are known for that. I'm on my 3rd HK receiver over the last 25 years and have recently demoed another model in my home, and that is a characteristic of their sound. If that's what you are looking for, you might want to send Onkyo.
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post #23 of 23
1/24/12 at 12:41pm
Speaking only for myself, the Onkyo sounds amazing, compared to the Pioneer AVR I had previously. On the other hand, those are the only two receivers I have ever tried listening to.
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