AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Can I / Should I go 7.1? (pics inside!)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Can I / Should I go 7.1? (pics inside!)

post #1 of 35
1/8/12 at 2:39pm
Thread Starter 
I am currently running a 5.1 setup in my room with Polk RTi6 fronts, CSi5 center, and M10 rears. I am adding a pair of RTi8 towers to my setup, and possibly a pair of RTi4 bookshelf speakers as well. I am also about to order an Onkyo 709 receiver because it has the ability to add an external amplifier for the fronts (just got rid of my Onkyo 509 to do so). Because I am getting this receiver and now have "extra" speakers, I thought about the idea of running 7.1 but am not sure if/how I can.

Below are some pictures of the room...please excuse the boxes and mess, but they will be gone soon! I have drawn some measurements of the distances around the couch. Main seating position is just a little bit off-center to the left of the couch, which is 6'6" wide.

I understand the the surrounds should be directly to the sides, and elevated a few feet above listening position. The Surround Left speakers cannot be placed as such, since there is a closet door in the way. The options would be to place the surrounds very close to the ceiling (tweeter would be about 3" below it, and about 5 feet above ear height), or set them on stands that would put them exactly at ear-level. I wanted to use the RTi6 speakers as the side surrounds, but also have fear of them being on wall mounts (if I choose to put them close to the ceiling).

Then I would use the RTi4 speakers as the Surround Backs. The distance between the listener's ears and the rear wall when seated is 2 feet. Does that give me enough room to go 7.1? If so, should the Surround Back speakers be on the rear wall facing forward, or on the side walls facing each other, as close against the back wall as possible? Above ear-level?





Thanks in advance!
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 35
1/8/12 at 3:40pm
Thread Starter 
More info:

The room is 11'6" x 12'6"

I could mount the Left Surround speaker on the closet door (drilling through the door into a "support" on the other side of it) if necessary/mounting above the door is a poor option. I would assume, though, that the material of the closet door would not get along with the ported RTi6 very well. And again, I would rather not hang those heavy RTi6 speakers at all...
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 35
1/9/12 at 5:19am
I would suggest you stay with a 5.1 setup. The classic "couch against the wall" furniture layout will not allow the 4' or 5' needed to put rear speakers behind the listener. Your current layout with the surrounds as "sides" is the appropriate layout for the room.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 35
1/9/12 at 5:35am
The Onkyo 709 supports both PLIIz and Audyssey DSX, so you could consider adding front wide or height speakers instead.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 35
1/9/12 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tezster View Post

The Onkyo 709 supports both PLIIz and Audyssey DSX, so you could consider adding front wide or height speakers instead.

In 12x12 room they both are useless. Stay with 5.1., or use bigger room for HT.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 35
1/9/12 at 7:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_vanmeter View Post

I would suggest you stay with a 5.1 setup. The classic "couch against the wall" furniture layout will not allow the 4' or 5' needed to put rear speakers behind the listener. Your current layout with the surrounds as "sides" is the appropriate layout for the room.

"Current layout" meaning with my surrounds on stands, slightly behind listening position (as seen in the pictures)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

In 12x12 room they both are useless. Stay with 5.1., or use bigger room for HT.

Thanks for the input.


So should I use the RTi8 as fronts and RTi6 as rears/surrounds? Since I would be much closer to the RTi6 speakers, I feel that they will be too strong and sound "directional." Would it be worth the extra effort and risk (and speaker wire) to hand them 2-3 feet higher?
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 35
1/9/12 at 11:27am
"Current layout" meaning with my surrounds on stands, slightly behind listening position (as seen in the pictures)? Yes
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 35
1/9/12 at 2:06pm
2 comments based on my own experience:

1) A few years ago i had a large room where i had a 7.1 setup. I had the side & rear speakers up quite high (due to practical limitations i had to), and it sounded pretty good. I would not rule out putting the side speakers up high (try to angle them down if you can to reduce reflections from the ceiling.)

2) Recently i set up a smaller HT room in which the layout makes it so that my ears are only about 2'-3' from the rear wall. Sticking with the official guidelines, i initially was a good soldier and ditched my 7.1 setup, and set up my speakers in a 5.1 layout. While the sound was good, i felt something was missing. The surround field wasn't as "complete". So i put up my (bipole) surrounds on the rear and directs on the side walls (slightly ahead of the listening position.) Things sounded much better to me. Sounds were placed around me more so than before.

In my experience a 7.1 setup typically is better than a 5.1 setup, for the same reasons it's typically better to have a center channel speaker in addition to your left + right speakers instead of just the left + right speakers.

So my advice to you: If you have the speakers, experiment!

Remember that this hobby is all about making acceptable compromises. If you don't have the perfect setup, you can still approximate it as best as you can given what you have to work with. Have fun and good luck!
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 35
1/9/12 at 10:56pm
Thread Starter 
I have read in other threads that the accepted distance behind seating for 7.1 is 3' or greater. My current layout puts the rear wall 2' behind the listener's ear, but I could easily move the couch forward 1' to reach that 3ft. minimum...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertjan View Post

2 comments based on my own experience:

1) A few years ago i had a large room where i had a 7.1 setup. I had the side & rear speakers up quite high (due to practical limitations i had to), and it sounded pretty good. I would not rule out putting the side speakers up high (try to angle them down if you can to reduce reflections from the ceiling.)

2) Recently i set up a smaller HT room in which the layout makes it so that my ears are only about 2'-3' from the rear wall. Sticking with the official guidelines, i initially was a good soldier and ditched my 7.1 setup, and set up my speakers in a 5.1 layout. While the sound was good, i felt something was missing. The surround field wasn't as "complete". So i put up my (bipole) surrounds on the rear and directs on the side walls (slightly ahead of the listening position.) Things sounded much better to me. Sounds were placed around me more so than before.

In my experience a 7.1 setup typically is better than a 5.1 setup, for the same reasons it's typically better to have a center channel speaker in addition to your left + right speakers instead of just the left + right speakers.

So my advice to you: If you have the speakers, experiment!

Remember that this hobby is all about making acceptable compromises. If you don't have the perfect setup, you can still approximate it as best as you can given what you have to work with. Have fun and good luck!

Thanks a ton for this post! Not really what I was expecting to hear, but kinda makes me..."happy" (??). I don't know what to call it, but I guess a little part in me was hoping for someone to say 7.1

The only thing that is a problem is your term "experiment" - going 7.1 would require me to start drilling into the wall...or into 2 walls. I have no problem with this, as long as it is a permanent thing. I do not like the idea of drilling with the possibility of not using those holes and having to patch them + re-paint. The rears would definitely have to be drilled into the wall, and the sides would either have to be mounted on brackets high towards the ceiling or put on speaker stands at ear-level height. If the former is chosen, can anyone suggest good, reliable, safe brackets for Polk RTi6 speakers? (one speaker would either be drilled into the closet door itself, or into a stud behind drywall).
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 35
1/10/12 at 7:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

The only thing that is a problem is your term "experiment" - going 7.1 would require me to start drilling into the wall...or into 2 walls. I have no problem with this, as long as it is a permanent thing.

Figure out a way to put them up there temporarily to see if you like the sound & location - use a stepladder, bookcase, girlfriend... anything
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 35
1/10/12 at 11:09am
Honestly, KtrainHurricane, your current setup looks like an ideal little 5.1 setup. I wouldn't change anything. Can you? Yes. Should you? No.

Do you already own the 6th and 7th speakers?
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 35
1/10/12 at 12:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Do you already own the 6th and 7th speakers?

Yes.

The speakers available to be hooked up are:
(1) CSi5
(2) RTi8
(2) RTi6
(2) RTi4
(2) M10
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 35
1/10/12 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Yes.

Hence my recommendation to experiment Worst case you end up with the 5.1 setup you have know, knowing from your own experience that that's the best solution for your room Much better than asking strangers who don't know your room what the best solution for your room is!
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 35
1/10/12 at 1:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertjan View Post

Hence my recommendation to experiment Worst case you end up with the 5.1 setup you have know, knowing from your own experience that that's the best solution for your room Much better than asking strangers who don't know your room what the best solution for your room is!

Do you have a girlfriend and a stepladder I can borrow? Lol
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 35
1/10/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Yes.

Well, if that's the case then I guess you should do what Gertjan recommended. Experiment. I suspect, though, that if and once you run the wiring you will probably keep the rear speakers back there.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 35
1/10/12 at 2:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Well, if that's the case then I guess you should do what Gertjan recommended. Experiment. I suspect, though, that if and once you run the wiring you will probably keep the rear speakers back there.

Ok, thanks!

And if I do decide to "experiment" since I already have the speakers, would I be better off hanging the rears on the rear wall facing forward, or on the side walls facing each other, but pushed all the way up against the rear wall?
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 35
1/10/12 at 2:32pm
Rears behind you on the wall facing forward

No girlfriend, but i have a stepladder
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 35
1/10/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Ok, thanks!

And if I do decide to "experiment" since I already have the speakers, would I be better off hanging the rears on the rear wall facing forward, or on the side walls facing each other, but pushed all the way up against the rear wall?

Well, based upon the photos of your current setup, the rear surround speakers should be that; rear surround speakers. So, on the rear wall. And you should probably move your side surrounds forward a little bit if possible (doesn't really look too possible).

Have you seen the diagrams (at Dolby's website, etc.) of the recommended speaker layouts for 5.1 and 7.1 setups?

Again, though, IMO, your current 5.1 setup is ideal for that space.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 35
1/10/12 at 3:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Have you seen the diagrams (at Dolby's website, etc.) of the recommended speaker layouts for 5.1 and 7.1 setups?

Again, though, IMO, your current 5.1 setup is ideal for that space.

Yes I have seen Dolby's diagrams - they have the rears in the corner's angled in towards the primary seating position...but that is not really possible.
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 35
1/10/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

- they have the rears in the corner's angled in towards the primary seating position....

They may be angled in, in some diagrams, but they aren't really in the corners, are they? They are usually shown behind the seating position, no?
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 35
1/10/12 at 4:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

They may be angled in, in some diagrams, but they aren't really in the corners, are they? They are usually shown behind the seating position, no?

I stand corrected - I guess in the 5.1 diagram (and even in the 7.1 diagram a little) with the speakers angled in towards listening position, I caught the impression that they were in the corners...


I did NOT happen to see what height they should be at. It seems like Dolby suggests ear-level, but since they would be within 2'-3' it would be better for me to put them above ear level, right?
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 35
1/10/12 at 5:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

It seems like Dolby suggests ear-level, but since they would be within 2'-3' it would be better for me to put them above ear level, right?

That's been my experience. Also, i've found it's best to have the speakers in the same plane - meaning that you should not have 1 set of speakers way up high and another at ear level. As always, YMMV, try it for yourself to see what works best.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 35
1/10/12 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertjan View Post

That's been my experience. Also, i've found it's best to have the speakers in the same plane - meaning that you should not have 1 set of speakers way up high and another at ear level. As always, YMMV, try it for yourself to see what works best.

Well my fronts and center are on the same plane, and obviously can't really move (the towers, at least).

The sides can either be placed on the same plane by mounting one on the actual closet door itself, or near the ceiling instead. Can anyone advise for or against mounting one directly onto the closet door?

If it is better for me to put the sides above the closet door and near the ceiling, should I put the rears up that high too in order to keep them on the same plane, or would they be better on the same plane as the fronts + center? (I am thinking the second choice, because of the numbers: 3 vs. 2)
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 35
1/10/12 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Ok, thanks!

And if I do decide to "experiment" since I already have the speakers, would I be better off hanging the rears on the rear wall facing forward, or on the side walls facing each other, but pushed all the way up against the rear wall?

I did the surround back thing hanging the rears...my room is 11 X 14. It actually sounds pretty good, with the added rear ambiance. Depends on your room, budget and ears.
LL
LL
LL
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 35
1/10/12 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Well my fronts and center are on the same plane, and obviously can't really move (the towers, at least).

The sides can either be placed on the same plane by mounting one on the actual closet door itself, or near the ceiling instead. Can anyone advise for or against mounting one directly onto the closet door?

If it is better for me to put the sides above the closet door and near the ceiling, should I put the rears up that high too in order to keep them on the same plane, or would they be better on the same plane as the fronts + center? (I am thinking the second choice, because of the numbers: 3 vs. 2)

Just to be clear - In the same plane does not mean it has to be a horizontal plane. The plane that the speakers are roughly on can slope up from ear level in the front to high up in the rear. What i meant is that if your fronts are at ear level, but your sides need to be up higher because of room constraints, your rears should also be up and not at ear level. You want it to be like "/", not "/\\", if that makes any sense So to answer your last question - keep them in the same plane.

Again, this is just based on my personal experience and preference. In the end you gotta take the rules, then break them to get what works for you in your situation.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 35
1/10/12 at 9:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

I did the surround back thing hanging the rears...my room is 11 X 14. It actually sounds pretty good, with the added rear ambiance. Depends on your room, budget and ears.

Thanks a LOT for your post...the pics really help! They are extremely similar to how mine would end up looking, just without towers as my sides (but your fronts + center + rears are the same).

I have 2 questions for you:
1). Can you actually hear sounds from your rears? Did you notice a difference after adding these (assuming you were 5.1 before!), and
2). Doesn't having those towers as your sides "overpower" everything else? I would assume that since they are so big and so close that they are all you would hear!
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 35
1/10/12 at 9:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertjan View Post

You want it to be like "/", not "/\\", if that makes any sense

Perfect!

It actually didn't make much sense to me at first, but your "diagrams" worked effectively!
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 35
1/11/12 at 4:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Thanks a LOT for your post...the pics really help! They are extremely similar to how mine would end up looking, just without towers as my sides (but your fronts + center + rears are the same).

I have 2 questions for you:
1). Can you actually hear sounds from your rears? Did you notice a difference after adding these (assuming you were 5.1 before!), and
2). Doesn't having those towers as your sides "overpower" everything else? I would assume that since they are so big and so close that they are all you would hear!

1 - I can hear audio from the surround back channels, depending upon the content and source. The added channels are audible, but are mixed with the side surrounds for a more in depth listening experience when listening to Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-HD Master Audio, and DTS-ES encoded material.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/index.html

http://www.dts.com/


2 - My receiver balanced each speaker using its built in Audyssey calibration tool and mic. The speakers sort of disappear into the room. The monitor 60's as sides are a good match for the 70's in the front. They blend very well and do not overpower my ears.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 35
1/11/12 at 5:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

1 - I can hear audio from the surround back channels, depending upon the content and source. The added channels are audible, but are mixed with the side surrounds for a more in depth listening experience when listening to Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-HD Master Audio, and DTS-ES encoded material.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/index.html

http://www.dts.com/


2 - My receiver balanced each speaker using its built in Audyssey calibration tool and mic. The speakers sort of disappear into the room. The monitor 60's as sides are a good match for the 70's in the front. They blend very well and do not overpower my ears.

1 - So you leave your receiver on Dolby TrueHD or DTS-Master Audio rather than switching to something like PLIIx? I was reading around on some other threads and it seemed like the only way to get separate audio from the rears + sides with a 5.1-encoded disc was to use PLIIx's matrix decoding...

2 - And with my current 5.1 setup I ran the Audyssey setup through my Onkyo 509 and sometimes it seemed like I could "locate" my rear (Polk M10) speakers...when I don't think I should have been able to
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 35
6/9/12 at 1:05am
Thread Starter 
After several months of enjoying my 7.1 setup, I decided to give Front Height speakers some consideration today. I saw Prometheus last night, and felt that it had a very strong audio track. While watching it in the theater, there were times when I could have yelled at the top of my lungs and not be heard over the movie...which got me thinking about past experiences I've had with Blu-ray movies that also had strong audio tracks. I have watched scenes with my receiver cranked to reference level (Onkyo 709 @ 0db relative), and just wasn't "feeling it." There have been several times during several movies that I couldn't help but feel that my front speakers were letting me down. Up until yesterday I figured that I was just getting distortion and a dirty sound because I don't have my fronts amped yet (but I do plan on going that route relatively soon). However, after being in the theaters last night, I realized that many scenes in the movie made it seem like the entire front wall was just covered in speakers. That, and given the fact that my room is not ideal for "true 7.1" setup (i.e. my seating is too close to the back wall), has led me to believe that Front Height speakers may provide "better" results for me in my movie room.

Any thoughts?


P.S. - and while on this topic, anyone care to stir the pot a little with Audyssey DSX vs. Dolby PLIIz?
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Audio theory, Setup and Chat

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Can I / Should I go 7.1? (pics inside!)