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Official Panasonic 2012 Lineup and Information Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 51

post #1501 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djPerfectTrip View Post

The comment wasn't pointed at you, but the guy I quoted.

Did I mention my technologically challengedness?
post #1502 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcoyote View Post

I'm waiting for the perfect calibration package for one low price.

"Up to 3 calibrations over 5 years or 50,000 hours, whichever comes first, for up to 4 separate HDMI ports, 2 modes per port... destination and taxes not included."

I'm offering exactly that package for $100 by telephone, and I'll pay the long distance charges.

EDIT: That offer also includes a warranty. If you're not satisfied then we will do it again, and again, and so on.
post #1503 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Snappy????

1. No.
2.Yes there is a difference. A lot less flicker with 96Hz.
3. Yes.

Those sure were snappy answers.
post #1504 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Kuros

Nah but I will be getting one for my dad.

Considering how you know these sets inside out the best of anyone I know, is the VT's frame interpolation significantly better than the ST and GT? Does the frame interpolation get noticeably better moving up the line and is it available in 3D?

I really dislike 24fps judder, so the 96Hz is useless to me.


Max
post #1505 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


Considering how you know these sets inside out the best of anyone I know, is the VT's frame interpolation significantly better than the ST and GT?

Its the same.
post #1506 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


I really dislike 24fps judder, so the 96Hz is useless to me.

Max

Now I'm truly confused... I thought 96Hz reduced judder in 24p source content... Am I totally lost?

Btw, something I tried on the VT50 at BestBuy was the "motion smoother". I looked for a fast motion sequence in the BD, started with the lowest setting and watched the same portion using each incremental setting. The judder improved significantly from the mild to the strong setting. Using the latter, the sequence was absolutely smooth and I could not notice any other unwanted artifacts being introduced in the image (although I am not a videophile, and would not be a good judge at this point, I do see stuff on TVs most people don't). Does this "motion smoother" introduce unwanted modifications to the source content, and therefore should be avoided?

Thanks!
Spiffx
post #1507 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Its the same.

If it is the same, how specifically (in layman terms) does 96Hz make the VT50 better than the GT50 and ST50?

Thanks,
Spiffx
post #1508 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

Now I'm truly confused... I thought 96Hz reduced judder in 24p source content... Am I totally lost?

Btw, something I tried on the VT50 at BestBuy was the "motion smoother". I looked for a fast motion sequence in the BD, started with the lowest setting and watched the same portion using each incremental setting. The judder improved significantly from the mild to the strong setting. Using the latter, the sequence was absolutely smooth and I could not notice any other unwanted artifacts being introduced in the image (although I am not a videophile, and would not be a good judge at this point, I do see stuff on TVs most people don't). Does this "motion smoother" introduce unwanted modifications to the source content, and therefore should be avoided?

Thanks!
Spiffx

Well others may have different answers but I don't think it would benefit you to keep this setting on the strong setting unless the content calls for it. So for example if you're just watching say a drama movie with a low amount of action sequences then you will experience the soap opera effect during the entire movie.
post #1509 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLdan View Post


Well others may have different answers but I don't think it would benefit you to keep this setting on the strong setting unless the content calls for it. So for example if you're just watching say a drama movie with a low amount of action sequences then you will experience the soap opera effect during the entire movie.

I hate the soap opera effect. That is one of the main reasons (in addition to black levels) I'm going with plasma over LED. So, are you telling me that I will experience the soap opera effect on my soon to arrive VT50... or judder?

Sounds like we'll have wait for OLED... but that will have the same problem, wouldn't it? It's a source content issue, right?
post #1510 of 1640
I am seeing soap opera in this thread- no need for VT50 or ST50 or LED

Regards,
Kishore
post #1511 of 1640
D-Nice, a quick question. Can all of the VT50 picture modes be made to look like any of the others (ie. if you start with can it be configured to look like, say )? Or do each of these modes start from different, nonadjustable, "base settings" for lack of better technical terminology such that they can never become identical? I don't ever foresee a need for either the or modes and it would be great if those could become more useful dedicated modes. But if they are built on an "inferior" base then perhaps they can never become a useful calibrated picture mode. Just wondering ...

Also, the user seems to be locked out of the advanced settings in the THX modes such that they can't be customized very much. Could an experienced calibrator such as yourself get in through a "back door" to improve those modes (ie. to resolve say the "too green" aspect of the THX mode)??

By the way, pls look for a PM from me to schedule a VT50 calibration stop in the southern Toronto area during your Eastern Canada road trip
post #1512 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Calibrate two different modes.

You really need to review the Video modes the ST50 has. Nothing is stopping anyone from creating 2D day and night modes and one 3D mode.

Are you saying that you can get a good calibration of Cinema mode in the ST50 even with it's limited gamma and that it would be as good or better than THX Cinema on the GT50?

From what you've said, I'm assuming that Custom could be calibrated to be as bright as THX Bright Room and will also have the exact same, or better, shadow detail, etc. So wouldn't that leave Cinema as the only one left to calibrate for dark room, and wouldn't the black then be more washed out than the uncalibrated modes on the GT50? If not then can you elaborate please?
post #1513 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrRx View Post

Could an experienced calibrator such as yourself get in through a "back door" to improve those modes (ie. to resolve say the "too green" aspect of the THX mode)??

The Color Temps can be calibrated in the service menu (Warm 1, Warm 2, Normal etc)
post #1514 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

Now I'm truly confused... I thought 96Hz reduced judder in 24p source content... Am I totally lost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

If it is the same, how specifically (in layman terms) does 96Hz make the VT50 better than the GT50 and ST50?

Thanks,
Spiffx

96Hz/48Hz uses 4:4/2:2 pulldown rather than 3:2 pulldown (conversion of 24 -> 60). 3:2 pulldown technically causes judder, but it's hardly noticeable if done properly. I think it's more noticeable with LCDs. 3:2 pulldown can be done two ways:
1) the player does the conversion (set the player to output 60Hz)
2) the TV does the conversion (set the player to output 24Hz, set your Panasonic to 60Hz)
Some say that when Panasonic does the conversion, there's a hint of some kind of motion smoothing; some like it, others don't.

96Hz > 48Hz because 48Hz is and always will be too low of a refresh rate which causes too much flicker and makes it useless. 96Hz has significantly less flicker where some don't even notice it.

D-Nice said the frame interpolation technology is the same between all 3 models, aka Motion Smoother. This setting smooths motion with frame interpolation and is what causes the soap opera effect. It makes it appear as if the framerate has been increased. It's great for reducing judder (especially for film because it has such a low framerate) but most people don't like this effect. I personally don't use it at all. I think it was created for LCDs to compensate for the slower response time.
post #1515 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post


96Hz/48Hz uses 4:4/2:2 pulldown rather than 3:2 pulldown (conversion of 24 -> 60). 3:2 pulldown technically causes judder, but it's not that noticeable if done properly. 3:2 pulldown can be done two ways:
1) the player does the conversion (set the player to output 60Hz)
2) the TV does the conversion (set the player to output 24Hz)
Some say that when Panasonic does the conversion, there's a hint of some kind of motion smoothing; some like it, others don't.

96Hz > 48Hz because 48Hz is and always will be too low of a refresh rate which causes too much flicker and makes it useless. 96Hz has significantly less flicker where some don't even notice it.

D-Nice said the frame interpolation technology is the same between all 3 models, aka Motion Smoother. This setting smooths motion with frame interpolation and is what causes the soap opera effect. It's great for reducing judder (especially for film because it has such a low framerate) but most people don't like this effect. I personally don't use it at all.

Thanks a lot Rahzel. Please let me confirm if I got that right. 3:2 pull down motion smoothing causes the soap opera effect. In theory, 4:4 shouldn't cause a soap opera effect, but some do see a hint of it on Panny's plasmas...

Two questions:
1) Did I get this right?
2) Is there anything better (than a VT50) currently available in the market for displaying fast moving BD movies?

Darn, there's no judder or soap opera effect (that I can perceive) on my old SXRD...

Thanks,
Spiffx
post #1516 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

Thanks a lot Rahzel. Please let me confirm if I got that right. 3:2 pull down motion smoothing causes the soap opera effect. In theory, 4:4 shouldn't cause a soap opera effect, but some do see a hint of it on Panny's plasmas...

The 'Motion Smoother' setting causes the soap opera effect. This is the frame interpolation technology. I don't know exactly how it works, but it seems to be similar to the same technology that is in these LCD displays where it estimates motion between frames and inserts an intermediate frame. The result is an effect that the framerate has increased and motion is smoother (but looks too smooth to me).

3:2 pulldown =/= motion smoother. 3:2 pulldown is the conversion of 24p to play on a 60Hz refresh rate display. Because 60 is not evenly divisible by 24, every few frames there's a stutter. Again, it's not very noticeable on Plasmas. This conversion can be done by the player or TV (read my above post).
96Hz/48Hz allows the image to refresh evenly (each frame is displayed 4 or 2 times a second (respectively) so there's no conversion needed, thus, no judder caused by 3:2 pulldown.

Quote:


2) Is there anything better (than a VT50) currently available in the market for displaying fast moving BD movies?

Darn, there's no judder or soap opera effect (that I can perceive) on my old SXRD...

Thanks,
Spiffx

Well, the E8000 edged out the VT50 in motion resolution in overall votes between the audience and pros at the VE flat panel shootout. I don't know how big of a difference there is as I haven't seen them side by side, but I doubt there will be much of a difference. The superior PQ of the VT50 makes it a better choice IMO.

One thing is for sure, though... Plasma is definitely what you want if you want better motion handling. It would be down to the E8000 (also an excellent display) or the VT50. Again, personally I would take the VT50.

Also keep in mind that judder varies by content. Film is more susceptible to judder because the framerate is so low.
post #1517 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djPerfectTrip View Post

Likewise with getting the TV calibrated. What's the point of paying for a 'perfect' picture when it's just going to shift over time?

What's the point in taking a bath if your just going to get dirty again?
post #1518 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

The 'Motion Smoother' setting causes the soap opera effect. This is the frame interpolation technology. I don't know exactly how it works, but it seems to be similar to the same technology that is in these LCD displays where it estimates motion between frames and inserts an intermediate frame. The result is an effect that the framerate has increased and motion is smoother (but looks too smooth to me).

3:2 pulldown =/= motion smoother. 3:2 pulldown is the conversion of 24p to play on a 60Hz refresh rate display. Because 60 is not evenly divisible by 24, every few frames there's a stutter. Again, it's not very noticeable on Plasmas. This conversion can be done by the player or TV (read my above post).
96Hz/48Hz allows the image to refresh evenly (each frame is displayed 4 or 2 times a second (respectively) so there's no conversion needed, thus, no judder caused by 3:2 pulldown.

Well, the E8000 edged out the VT50 in motion resolution in overall votes between the audience and pros at the VE flat panel shootout. I don't know how big of a difference there is as I haven't seen them side by side, but I doubt there will be much of a difference. The superior PQ of the VT50 makes it a better choice IMO.

One thing is for sure, though... Plasma is definitely what you want if you want better motion handling. It would be down to the E8000 (also an excellent display) or the VT50. Again, personally I would take the VT50.

Also keep in mind that judder varies by content. Film is more susceptible to judder because the framerate is so low.

Great, I think I'm starting to get it now. Thanks for your patience.

When converting from 24p to 60Hz, 48Hz or 96Hz, images are just being repeated. In the case of 60Hz there is judder because 60 is not a multiple of 24. However, in fast moving video, because there are only 24 frames of content per second in the original/source material, the viewer will see the image jump (what is this called? Is this also considered judder?). Now, these jumps are inherent to the source material (as I mentioned before), right? Therefore, the only way to improve the jumps would be by using an image interpolation technology or motion smoother. This technology is the culprit for the dreaded soap opera effect. Nonetheless, the soap opera effect is less visible in plasma than it is in LED LCD, which is simply due to the way in which plasma technology works/displays images. Please let me know if I got it right thus far this time around.

Now, if this is all correct, and the reason I see fast video jump is because there are only 24 fps in the source material (e.g., movies), why do I not see these jumps in the movie theater and/or on my Sony SXRD?

Still a bit lost, but still hopeful I'll get there eventually... . Thanks again for your patience guys.

Cheers,
Spiffx
post #1519 of 1640
Frames are only repeated when an even pulldown is used (2:2, 4:4, 5:5 etc.)

I dunno if judder caused by 3:2 pulldown has a technical name for it. I guess you could call it telecine judder.

You shouldn't see jumps in 24fps/film. Because 24fps is such a low framerate, you might see choppiness in slow camera panning scenes. Jumps every once in a while sounds like it might be due to the 3:2 pulldown.

Frame interpolation/motion smoother isn't specifically for telecine judder... it's just for judder in general.

Frame interpolation technology isn't more or less noticeable on Plasma or LCD, it depends on how the technology is implemented. It all looks bad to me (too smooth). If it's done really bad, it can cause artifacts. Judder is what is more noticeable on LCDs because of the slower response time and why I think frame interpolation was created in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

Great, I think I'm starting to get it now. Thanks for your patience.

When converting from 24p to 60Hz, 48Hz or 96Hz, images are just being repeated. In the case of 60Hz there is judder because 60 is not a multiple of 24. However, in fast moving video, because there are only 24 frames of content per second in the original/source material, the viewer will see the image jump (what is this called? Is this also considered judder?). Now, these jumps are inherent to the source material (as I mentioned before), right? Therefore, the only way to improve the jumps would be by using an image interpolation technology or motion smoother. This technology is the culprit for the dreaded soap opera effect. Nonetheless, the soap opera effect is less visible in plasma than it is in LED LCD, which is simply due to the way in which plasma technology works/displays images. Please let me know if I got it right thus far this time around.

Now, if this is all correct, and the reason I see fast video jump is because there are only 24 fps in the source material (e.g., movies), why do I not see these jumps in the movie theater and/or on my Sony SXRD?

Still a bit lost, but still hopeful I'll get there eventually... . Thanks again for your patience guys.

Cheers,
Spiffx
post #1520 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

What's the point in taking a bath if your just going to get dirty again?

Baths don't cost $400.
post #1521 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

Frames are only repeated when an even pulldown is used (2:2, 4:4, 5:5 etc.)

I dunno if judder caused by 3:2 pulldown has a technical name for it. I guess you could call it telecine judder.

You shouldn't see jumps in 24fps/film. Because 24fps is such a low framerate, you might see choppiness in slow camera panning scenes. Jumps every once in a while sounds like it might be due to the 3:2 pulldown.

Frame interpolation/motion smoother isn't specifically for telecine judder... it's just for judder in general.

Frame interpolation technology isn't more or less noticeable on Plasma or LCD, it depends on how the technology is implemented. It all looks bad to me (too smooth). If it's done really bad, it can cause artifacts. Judder is what is more noticeable on LCDs because of the slower response time and why I think frame interpolation was created in the first place.

When I say jump, I am referring to the folowing: Let's say a car is moving very fast from the right to the left of the TV (24p source). First frame you see the tip of the car at the right of the screen, next frame the car is already in the middle of the screen, third frame the car is at the left edge of the screen (this is a bit exagerated to explain my point). Instead of seeing a fluid motion these frames have images that are very far appart. If this was a 60fps source, we'd see about ~7 or 8 frames in the same amount of time, and our brains would perceive a smoother motion. Those jumps are due to the source material frame rate rather than a problem with the TV. Therefore, no TV would be able to display this source material any bettr, unless a perfect interpolation technology was implemented.

My question still is, why don't we see this problem at the movies? Can you help out here D-Nice? Would greatly appreciate it.

And also, how does all this play-out on a Kuro 9G? How smooth is a fast panning/side-scrolling scene on a Kuro? Same as VT50, ST50? Why isn't this problem (or the soap opera issue) present on a Sony SXRD RPTV?

Thanks,
Spiffx
post #1522 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiffX View Post

When I say jump, I am referring to the folowing: Let's say a car is moving very fast from the right to the left of the TV (24p source). First frame you see the tip of the car at the right of the screen, next frame the car is already in the middle of the screen, third frame the car is at the left edge of the screen (this is a bit exagerated to explain my point). Instead of seeing a fluid motion these frames have images that are very far appart. If this was a 60fps source, we'd see about ~7 or 8 frames in the same amount of time, and our brains would perceive a smoother motion. Those jumps are due to the source material frame rate rather than a problem with the TV. Therefore, no TV would be able to display this source material any bettr, unless a perfect interpolation technology was implemented.

My question still is, why don't we see this problem at the movies? Can you help out here D-Nice? Would greatly appreciate it.

And also, how does all this play-out on a Kuro 9G? How smooth is a fast panning/side-scrolling scene on a Kuro? Same as VT50, ST50? Why isn't this problem (or the soap opera issue) present on a Sony SXRD RPTV?

Thanks,
Spiffx

When you saw these jumps, were you at the store? If so, was it a Blu-Ray source and were they using 96Hz? Again, the jumps you're describing could be caused by the 3:2 pulldown if they weren't using 96Hz or possibly they were using a poor player that was doing a bad job of doing the conversion to 60Hz.

The reason you don't see it in the cinema is because they don't need to do any frame conversions.
post #1523 of 1640
The difference between 3:2 pulldown judder and 24 fps judder can be described this way:
On a 60Hz display, if there's a slow pan across the scenery (for example at the beginning of Cowboys and Aliens), 3:2 judder will mean the pan is sort of smooth, but every so often, there's a jerk/jump in the pan, as if the camera has a twitch at regular intervals.

This is due to trying to play back a 24fps movie on a 60Hz display. On a 96Hz or 120 Hz capable display, each of the 24 frames is simply repeated 4x or 5x. On a 60 Hz display, some frames are repeated 3x and some 2x to fit to the 60Hz cadence.

With 24fps judder in a theater, the same pan in the movie stutters all the way across the screen (which is what I saw at the theater, reminding me why I don't go to the theaters much anymore. Some folks, like me, are sensitive to that stuttering (and blurring) due to the low 24 frames per second. It simply doesn't look smooth because my regular vision doesn't stutter that way as I look at things in real life.

A LOT of people though, are SO used to that stuttering in movies from experiencing it in all the movies they've watched that when that (unnatural) stuttering is gone, they consider it odd and think it looks like video (60 interlaced frames per second) which produces much smoother and sharper motion, hence any display that makes film look like it was shot at a higher frame rate produces what is called the 'soap opera effect', because it looks more like the higher frame rate of video.

The old 24 fps standard was established at the turn of the century because film stock was expensive and so was the cost of developing it. They tested 24 fps to be the lowest frame rate possible for the majority of viewers to not find the flickering objectionable. Using 48fps would double the costs of filmstock and developing it.

Unfortunately, so many people have grown accustomed to the optical artifacts and flaws of 24fps that they have a hard time adjusting. The movie 'The Hobbit' was shot in 48 fps because some directors (Peter Jackson and James Cameron for example) are aware of the limitations and flaws of 24 fps especially for 3d. When they had preliminary viewings of footage from The Hobbit, the initial reaction from regular viewers was, "It looked like a made for video documentary". Showing just how much the average viewer has been conditioned to accept the artifacts of 24fps as the norm.

I am one of those lesser few who actually LIKES the soap opera effect, simply because it is smoother and closer to what I see in real life. My vision doesn't stutter when I look around in the real world and I can't stand when it happens for movies, so I want the best implementation of frame interpolation available.

If you show a movie to a fresh viewer who has NEVER seen a movie (or video) before, and has not been subjected to any outside bias, and you show it to them in 24fps and say 60fps, I think most would prefer 60fps because it's more realistic. Aside from folks having to get over a bias towards an outdated, archaic standard, I do believe higher frame rates will some day be the norm.


Max
post #1524 of 1640
Djbluemax1,

Nice post. I don't care for the "soap opera effect" but I also have a hard time defending the motion of 24hz as an artistic decision of the director, "the way it was meant to be", etc. 24hz was the standard and a lot of directors would have probably been just as happy with 48 or 60 hz and I would probably have liked the look if I wasn't accustomed to 24 hz. Anyway, i am off topic, but nice post.
post #1525 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

The difference between 3:2 pulldown judder and 24 fps judder can be described this way:
On a 60Hz display, if there's a slow pan across the scenery (for example at the beginning of Cowboys and Aliens), 3:2 judder will mean the pan is sort of smooth, but every so often, there's a jerk/jump in the pan, as if the camera has a twitch at regular intervals.

This is due to trying to play back a 24fps movie on a 60Hz display. On a 96Hz or 120 Hz capable display, each of the 24 frames is simply repeated 4x or 5x. On a 60 Hz display, some frames are repeated 3x and some 2x to fit to the 60Hz cadence.

Max

Awesome explanation Max. Greatly appreciate it.

I am one of the unfortunate few that see both the 24fps judder and the Soap Opera Effect. However, for some reason I haven't noticed it either at the movies or on my SXRD. Maybe that's because I haven't been paying as much attention as I was at BB trying to make sure I didn't see anything I didn't like on the VT50...

Btw, Max, if you don't like movies or BD, what do you watch? Only TV broadcast?

Thanks,
Spiffx
post #1526 of 1640
But again, stutters every so often sounds more like telecine judder. 96Hz should eliminate that because it uses 4:4 pulldown rather than 3:2 pulldown. Maybe they didn't have it setup in 96Hz.
post #1527 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


I am one of those lesser few who actually LIKES the soap opera effect, simply because it is smoother and closer to what I see in real life. My vision doesn't stutter when I look around in the real world and I can't stand when it happens for movies, so I want the best implementation of frame interpolation available.

Max

Hey Max, forgot to ask on my previous post/quote: What do you consider is "the best implementation of frame interpolation [currently] available"?

Thanks,
Spiffx
post #1528 of 1640
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

But again, stutters every so often sounds more like telecine judder. 96Hz should eliminate that because it uses 4:4 pulldown rather than 3:2 pulldown. Maybe they didn't have it setup in 96Hz.

Apologies for not responding to your earlier post Rahzel. I can't remember if I had it in 96Hz. However, what Max explained pretty much describes what I saw. It was not 3:2 pull down where "every so often, there's a jerk/jump in the pan, as if the camera has a twitch at regular intervals.". It was exactly like the 24fps judder Max described where "the same pan in the movie stutters all the way across the screen."

I am thinking that plasma frame interpolation causes less of a SOE than LED LCD frame interpolation.

I am just wondering what technology my SXRD uses. Given that it is just a projected LCD, it should have the same SOE as an LED LCD, but it doesn't...
post #1529 of 1640
I see. If you're sensitive to film judder, then interpolation/dejudder is the only thing to combat that. The VT50 and E8000 are the best plasmas out there, so if you are able to get the remote for both sets at whatever store you go to, play around with Motion Smoother (Panasonic) and Motion Judder Canceller (Samsung) and see which you prefer. If you're willing to try an LCD, the HX929 is arguably the best LCD (including the Sharp Elite) and may be worth a look, but it won't quite match the aforementioned two in performance. The HX929's dejudder mode is called "MotionFlow".
post #1530 of 1640
Confuse me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember D-Nice (and some others) mention that both the 48hz of the ST/GT and the 96hz on the VT produce almost identical quality motion... and not very good at that.

The 60hz mode while perhaps having mild judder produced the better motion overall and was the preferred.

Does anyone else remember this? Is it not true? (I'm sure personal preferences are involved with this.)
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