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Official Panasonic 2012 Lineup and Information Thread [No Price Talk] - Page 33

post #961 of 1641
4/4/12 at 7:12pm
Ok guys, just picked up a 929. Great TV overall but it poses more issues in our viewing environment then I anticipated and seems to be super picky on source material.

I'm considering a return and holding out for either a GT50 or VT50 and just setting my Pioneer 5080HD back up. I'm kind of bummed right now because I love this 929 and when it gets it right, it is positively incredible. But even my wife was commenting on how many channels appear washed out while others are perfectly fine. Blu Ray is stunning on this set, absolutely a knockout but much of our viewing is done via cable.

Do we know what black levels will be like on these sets? Obviously pretty important stuff...and white levels?

Thoughts? recommendations? I just want a hug right now from some fellow home theater guys

edit: lots of talk saying people don't think the GT50 will be much if any better then the ST50? So what about the VT50?
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post #962 of 1641
4/4/12 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

The insider is not in marketing - he's in design and probably also product development, and he seems genuinely enthusiastic about his products.

Robert is very knowledeable and is a great salesman - he oozes it unfortunately for him it bleeds through in his words when he posts, especially since he is also enthusiastic about the brand. I have a salesman like this at my workplace and he just can't help himself as he lives and breathes this stuff. I do sales and purchasing in the electrical/electronic wholesale distrubutor industry and i deal with salesmen and marketing all the time and i just don't see any marketing coming from the insider - not even from between the lines. And i know when i'm being marketed to or sold to

Both these guys come across as honest and sincere, but one is in development and the other is in sales/marketing and there's nothing wrong with that. Both have been among the most helpful people on the forums as far as getting accurate info out to us enthusiasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Thank you for your correction Randy, I misremembered his position.

I do see marketing/sales coming from that "insider" especially when he is in defense mode (which is often when anyone has a negative opinion of the company or product).

This is from the "insider's" siggy: "I only deal In NA market consumer division." And that is his "bold" not mine.
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post #963 of 1641
4/4/12 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

But even my wife was commenting on how many channels appear washed out while others are perfectly fine.

It doesn't sound like a display problem. With cable you're not even using the TV's tuner. I would start with having your cable company check out why there is such a big variation in signal quality. Are you getting this wide range of quality from cable HDTV, SDTV or both?
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post #964 of 1641
4/4/12 at 10:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

This is from the "insider's" siggy: "I only deal In NA market consumer division." And that is his "bold" not mine.

That means that his department only deals with the North American Market, that doesn't mean he's in marketing. He put that there because European people keep asking him questions about Euro models but he wasn't involved in developing the Euro models, just the models sold in the North American market.
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post #965 of 1641
4/4/12 at 10:52pm
Correct. He actually reads these forums, just never posts. Here's what he put on HDJ not too long ago about this subject:

"It's always interesting to read avs. Apparently I'm branded as being in marketing And some other not so nice things? Haha. News to me. I better change my business card. FYI I'm in development on the engineering side. Im not a pdp engineer as ive said but I am an engineer by trade. If you buy a tv I make nothing. It's cool if you buy Panasonic but honestly it doesn't matter to me. Buy whatever the best panel is for the money. Clearly if you don't like me why read? "

Back on topic:

David Mackenzie from UKs HDTVtest got a VT50 in. Here's what he had to say when asked about when a review would be out:
"Tonight, I wish It takes time to age the display a little, then we calibrate in 2D and also in 3D. Then the testing of course. The next few days though

We got the 50".

One thing that is disappointing is that the light output is capped in the Professional modes (the only ones that can be calibrated to their full). The ST50 can go brighter than this. This is a great display, but I can't help but think they've shot themselves in the foot with that - especially when the ST50 is such a bargain. "

Makes me wonder how severe the brightness cap is and if it will play a role in the end calibration result? I also wonder if the US version may be different with the cap (as in not there) or if it can be fixed via FW update. Seems odd to limit the professional modes. I have a partial feeling it was intentional and probably has to do something w/ an agreement w/ THX and is why we didn't see it on the ST50.
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post #966 of 1641
4/4/12 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

It doesn't sound like a display problem. With cable you're not even using the TV's tuner. I would start with having your cable company check out why there is such a big variation in signal quality. Are you getting this wide range of quality from cable HDTV, SDTV or both?

SD looks terrible, HD varies from channel to channel and even commercial to commercial by a pretty wide margin I don't think its a cable problem, why would the issue not exist on my Pioneer? Clean feeds look incredible. I think I got used to Pioneer's superb processing and just took it for granted.
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post #967 of 1641
4/5/12 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

SD looks terrible, HD varies from channel to channel and even commercial to commercial by a pretty wide margin I don't think its a cable problem, why would the issue not exist on my Pioneer? Clean feeds look incredible. I think I got used to Pioneer's superb processing and just took it for granted.

I think you described some of the TV that you watch as being outstanding. Is that right? You also described some Blu-rays as being outstanding. Based on that information, I wouldn't look for the problem in the display. Source material, not displays, most often behave the way you described.
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post #968 of 1641
4/5/12 at 1:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maygit View Post

Makes me wonder how severe the brightness cap is and if it will play a role in the end calibration result? I also wonder if the US version may be different with the cap (as in not there) or if it can be fixed via FW update. Seems odd to limit the professional modes. I have a partial feeling it was intentional and probably has to do something w/ an agreement w/ THX and is why we didn't see it on the ST50.

If this insanity carries over to the U.S. model, it sounds like the ST50 and a few hundred in savings is the only option. How weird.
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post #969 of 1641
4/5/12 at 2:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikemomo View Post

hi everyone--

Just a real quick note--I was able to finally set up the GT50 today and just now did some really basic calibrations (impatient wife) using the Spears & Munsil disc. I am nervous about starting a new thread about the GT50 without a real powerful post, so I will just jot down my first impressions here and make a better post once I get watch more content and dial it in a bit more.

1 - This set is just a bit thicker than the LED LCD Samsung I returned. This is a very good thing, it was light (I was able to move it around myself), and not hard to adjust on my cabinet.

2 - The hardware itself is gorgeous and the wife loves how it looks, which is amazing. The base is not just straight up silver--it does a gradient fill thing that is kind of dark silver to lighter silver, but it looks good. It's a very handsome set, much more grounded and serious looking than the Samsung.

3 - I cannot believe how awesome the black levels are. I honestly did not ever think I would own a TV that had a picture this amazing. I just played that DTS logo thing on my Oppo BDP-93, and I gasped--it's just SILKY smooth...but then the details within the letters, even in this stupid DTS logo...just sharp. SHARP.

4 - There are lots of picture options, so many that I am a little intimidated by all of them--I just have no idea what some of them do. I have the E-Help manual (thanks for sharing that), which I will read on the plane tomorrow, but I have a feeling I will get a professional calibration job soon.

5 - The colors are obviously crisp and vibrant, but I am going to watch some blu-rays tonight and see how things fare. I watched some HBO and NBC today and was very impressed with the detail in the picture.

I hesitate to go too much further--I fear I might dip into hyperbole and without proper measuring hardware, I am not sure how helpful my adjectives are going to be, but I am, honestly, blown away by this TV. I saw a Kuro at CES years ago and I think that I can get the same feeling from this TV with proper calibration and contentI am truly flabbergasted; coming from a 2006 plasma to this serious piece of hardware is an amazing experience.

I am thrilled that I stayed with plasma, I am thrilled I got this Panasonic, and I can't wait to share a better, more coherent rundown later on. But suffice to say, if you were considering this set, I for one wholeheartedly recommend it as strongly as I can, with no reservations at all.

Thanks for listening, more soon.

best,
mike

Sounds awesome!!! Thank you Mike for your thoughts!!
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post #970 of 1641
4/5/12 at 3:31am
Any thoughts on the XT series?
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post #971 of 1641
4/5/12 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I think you described some of the TV that you watch as being outstanding. Is that right? You also described some Blu-rays as being outstanding. Based on that information, I wouldn't look for the problem in the display. Source material, not displays, most often behave the way you described.

I agree the source material is part of the problem but we never had these inconsistent issues on our Pioneer plasma and while blu ray looks fantastic on the Sony it looked fantastic on my Pioneer. Which is better? Depends on the scene, the sony generally has more detail the Pioneer generally has more punch and colors are more accurate. I think going with a 1080p plasma will yield similar punch/color accuracy results with the detail of the Sony. And the off angle viewing issues are far more annoying at home then in the store where everything looked like blah because of the lighting

Source material is part of the problem but if you've got a set that masks it and is still capable of the blacks, details etc why wouldn't you go that route? Maybe the VT50 would do that? I'm not going to adjust the settings on the new TV just because my wife changed the channel, I think thats positively silly.
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post #972 of 1641
4/5/12 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

If this insanity carries over to the U.S. model, it sounds like the ST50 and a few hundred in savings is the only option. How weird.

I'm not so sure it has anything to do with the THX mode. Their review of the GT50 shows the THX modes going very bright! I'm wondering if it has to do with the different filter on the VT. Maybe they are sacrificing light output to achieve better black levels?
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post #973 of 1641
4/5/12 at 6:09am
When I looked at the GT50 review, I saw that D-Nice's foresight about ST & GT would be very close that not worth to pay more bucks was true. The only thing he might be wrong that VT50 would be "different animal". Actually it turned out that VT50 is just the same animal with more "glamorous fur" on it (Compare GT & VT reviews).

VT50 may have little better blacks (by help of infinite ultra panel coating) but in expense of lower brightness in pro modes. D.Mckenzie (who's gonna review VT50 soon) says: "One thing that is disappointing is that the light output is capped in the Professional modes (the only ones that can be calibrated to their full). The ST50 can go brighter than this. This is a great display, but I can't help but think they've shot themselves in the foot with that - especially when the ST50 is such a bargain."


Also ST50 has only 16ms input lag while GT50 has 30 ms and VT50 has 24.

It seems that if Sammy won't surprise me with it's E6500-7000 range, I'm gonna buy my 50ST50 with a big relief cause the mean "animal" of the year is him.
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post #974 of 1641
4/5/12 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuiGonJosh View Post

Any thoughts on the XT series?

Yes. Eww. SDE FTL.
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post #975 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maygit View Post


One thing that is disappointing is that the light output is capped in the Professional modes (the only ones that can be calibrated to their full). The ST50 can go brighter than this. This is a great display, but I can't help but think they've shot themselves in the foot with that - especially when the ST50 is such a bargain. "

Makes me wonder how severe the brightness cap is and if it will play a role in the end calibration result? I also wonder if the US version may be different with the cap (as in not there) or if it can be fixed via FW update. Seems odd to limit the professional modes. I have a partial feeling it was intentional and probably has to do something w/ an agreement w/ THX and is why we didn't see it on the ST50.

- EU GT&VT50 got 2 "Pro" picture modes that can be unlocked via a simple option available in the setup menu. Think of them as 2 picture modes just like the US "custom" one except they are pre-calibrated and their panel brightness setting is locked at low, hence the brightness cap. These 2 Pro modes can be renamed to "isf day" and "isf night" but the available settings remain the same (meaning no panel brightness setting).

-US VT50 got 2 isf picture modes that can be unlocked by a calibrator or an end user with a dedicated proggy/remote control code. Panel brightness setting is available so no need to worry.

TLDNR : chill out, no cap in US.
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post #976 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post

-US VT50 got 2 isf picture modes that can be unlocked by a calibrator or an end user with a dedicated proggy/remote control code. Panel brightness setting is available so no need to worry.

TLDNR : no cap in US.

Excuse my ignorance here, but what are "isf picture modes" and why are they locked? What features are blocked with them locked?
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post #977 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Excuse my ignorance here, but what are "isf picture modes" and why are they locked? What features are blocked with them locked?

- isf

- Why locked in US ? Dunno exactly. Ask manufacturers and professional calibrators.

- Features blocked ? Calibration advanced settings : 10 points white balance etc...
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post #978 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

Ok guys, just picked up a 929. Great TV overall but it poses more issues in our viewing environment then I anticipated and seems to be super picky on source material.

I'm considering a return and holding out for either a GT50 or VT50 and just setting my Pioneer 5080HD back up. I'm kind of bummed right now because I love this 929 and when it gets it right, it is positively incredible. But even my wife was commenting on how many channels appear washed out while others are perfectly fine. Blu Ray is stunning on this set, absolutely a knockout but much of our viewing is done via cable.

Do we know what black levels will be like on these sets? Obviously pretty important stuff...and white levels?

Thoughts? recommendations? I just want a hug right now from some fellow home theater guys

edit: lots of talk saying people don't think the GT50 will be much if any better then the ST50? So what about the VT50?

Are you running through an AV receiver with good video processing? This can possibly fix a bunch of the issues you are having.
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post #979 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Are you running through an AV receiver with good video processing? This can possibly fix a bunch of the issues you are having.

I have tried it both ways. Receiver is yamaha v1700. A couple years old now but was excellent when I bought it.
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post #980 of 1641
4/5/12 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post


- isf

- Why locked in US ? Dunno exactly. Ask manufacturers and professional calibrators.

- Features blocked ? Calibration advanced settings : 10 points white balance etc...

Thaaaaat's pretty annoying >

I'm assuming that also includes blue-only mode, etc. Do we know what will unlock these menus on the 2012 Pannys yet? Hopefully just a remote code... I have $400 worth of DIY calibration kit and if I can't get my hands on the 10p WB I'll be pretty pissed. Silly that they feel the need to block that, especially when all Sammys have their sets opened up.
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post #981 of 1641
4/5/12 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartquake View Post

The only thing he might be wrong that VT50 would be "different animal".

My comments are specific to NA VT50s. I don't speak on any other region.

I said the VT50 was a different animal because one should be able to get everything perfect.
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post #982 of 1641
4/5/12 at 8:25am
Who said that I thought you were speaking of black levels?!? I meant general performance.

Whatever, it's very hard to convince me from now on spend more bucks on GT & VT series. (I didn't write this directly to you D-Nice, just MHO)
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post #983 of 1641
4/5/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by maygit View Post

Makes me wonder how severe the brightness cap is and if it will play a role in the end calibration result? I also wonder if the US version may be different with the cap (as in not there) or if it can be fixed via FW update. Seems odd to limit the professional modes. I have a partial feeling it was intentional and probably has to do something w/ an agreement w/ THX and is why we didn't see it on the ST50.

Have you asked this question at hdj?
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post #984 of 1641
4/5/12 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Thaaaaat's pretty annoying >

I'm assuming that also includes blue-only mode, etc. Do we know what will unlock these menus on the 2012 Pannys yet? Hopefully just a remote code... I have $400 worth of DIY calibration kit and if I can't get my hands on the 10p WB I'll be pretty pissed. Silly that they feel the need to block that, especially when all Sammys have their sets opened up.

Your calibration software (calman, chromapure, controlcal...) will unlock them. Isf modes are VT-only in US thou.
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post #985 of 1641
4/5/12 at 9:41am
What is the purpose of the isf calibration that only comes with the VT50 series? I visited and read the link provided about isf above, but I interpreted that to mean ifs must make the picture less blurry with better contrast and add more color. Somehow, I don't think that is what isf calibration is all about.

Or is this special isf calibration just a sales gimmick?
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post #986 of 1641
4/5/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBrat View Post

What is the purpose of the isf calibration that only comes with the VT50 series? I visited and read the link provided about isf above, but I interpreted that to mean ifs must make the picture less blurry with better contrast and add more color. Somehow, I don't think that is what isf calibration is all about.

The isf modes offer controls to more accurately calibrate your display.
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post #987 of 1641
4/5/12 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orso View Post


Your calibration software (calman, chromapure, controlcal...) will unlock them. Isf modes are VT-only in US thou.

How? I don't plan on spending the additional $200 for the auto cal license- I only have the standard DIY license.
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post #988 of 1641
4/5/12 at 10:02am
Here's a couple of paragraphs on isf calibration I copied from http://www.ehow.com/about_6647292_isf-calibration_.html

Process

After selecting the most accurate image preset the user menu offers as a starting point, ISF calibrators adjust the delicate balance between brightness, which determines the image's maximum black level, and contrast, which determines its maximum white level. The calibrator then adjusts color and tint using industry-standard color bars while looking through blue, green and red filters. Finally the calibrator adjust the gray scale from a test image of gray rectangles.

Results

Home theater owners will note dramatic changes in picture quality following a proper, comprehensive ISF adjustment. At first the image may seem inappropriately muted or dark, but in fact these new levels represent the image as the filmmakers intended it for viewing in the dimly-lit environment of a movie theater. Once viewers get used to the calibrated image they will notice the lesser quality of an uncalibrated system.
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post #989 of 1641
4/5/12 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBrat View Post

Here's a couple of paragraphs on isf calibration I copied from http://www.ehow.com/about_6647292_isf-calibration_.html

Process

After selecting the most accurate image preset the user menu offers as a starting point, ISF calibrators adjust the delicate balance between brightness, which determines the image's maximum black level, and contrast, which determines its maximum white level. The calibrator then adjusts color and tint using industry-standard color bars while looking through blue, green and red filters. Finally the calibrator adjust the gray scale from a test image of gray rectangles.

Results

Home theater owners will note dramatic changes in picture quality following a proper, comprehensive ISF adjustment. At first the image may seem inappropriately muted or dark, but in fact these new levels represent the image as the filmmakers intended it for viewing in the dimly-lit environment of a movie theater. Once viewers get used to the calibrated image they will notice the lesser quality of an uncalibrated system.

This link will give you a better idea of how a calibration works
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
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post #990 of 1641
4/5/12 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post


This link will give you a better idea of how a calibration works
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Thanks, I know how calibration works. I've already done one set with pretty good results.

What I don't understand is how the Calman DIY license "unlocks" the advanced/isf modes. The Samsung that I calibrated (see sig) didn't require any codes or unlocks.
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