Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread - Page 39

A quibble: this looks to be a typo. The S590 is this year's model. The S570 is from 2 years ago.

My mistake. Yes, the S570 which I own is from 2 years ago. But, what does the s790 do way better in your opinion in terms of the upscaling?.
And to my eyes, even the Blu Ray picture has a difference of quality. Ans S570 had excellent Blu Ray picture.

As Chris has mentioned in his reviews, Sony has had errors in the algorithm which converts the MPEG YUV color encoding into the default RGB color encoding that the player outputs, slightly reducing the color gamut. This might explain the improvement that you noticed. Supposedly the bug was fixed in later releases of the older models. (I'm not certain if it was a firmware or hardware fix; I think it was firmware, though.) It hasn't been fixed yet in this year's players, so you need to select YUV output encoding in the 590 and 790. (This output encoding option usually isn't even provided in players from other companies, which only provide RGB, and different display devices might or might not take advantage of it.)

As has been discussed previously in the 790 thread, it has more upscaling options than the 590 has, some of which can noticeably improve the appearance of DVDs pressed with poor quality video recordings.

Thanks! What is YUV? Is that YcBcr?

Some Oppo users says the scaler is as good as the Oppo. Game changer indeed. Even with the RGB error, the picture still looked wow! Gee and to think we once thought VHS was the way.


So a bad DVD with encoded weak resolution would benefit from the super resolution as well as texture?
Edited by WarrenD - 6/9/12 at 3:12pm

The distinction between YUV and Y'PbPr is minimal. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

The MPEG video encoders use YUV 4:2:0 color encoding to take advantage of the fact that our eyes aren't as good at resolving color as they are at resolving intensity differences. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling and the YUV article.

Evidently, many (perhaps most) display devices don't care which encoding they're sent -- RGB, YUV 4:2:0, YUV 4:2:2 or YUV 4:4:4.

As far as price Sony has no choice since it has to compete with Panasonic, Samsung, etc. in this price range and feature set. Also, no rush in the US to buy these as the price of the competition will keep the Sony priced at or below its current price.

Thanks for the link, but I personally put little value into their reviews right along with CNET.

+1. I couldn't have said it any better.

I have listed my transports past and present on a few of the threads that I frequent and the Oppo threads by far and it is no even close are the most informative threads (technically) and some of it has nothing to do with the Oppo. I will not call out names, but a few of usual posters have posted information that has allowed me to find more enjoyment out of my current transports even the BDP-S790. There are FEW posters on other threads that offer this same level of expertise.

My main reason for belonging to the various threads is to find ways to better enjoy the product and there are a select few on this thread that is providing this. I could care less if someone thinks this player is better than their previous or their subjective opinion(s) on picture quality.

I come back daily to read the various postings on this thread just looking for that one or two postings that bring me closer to a better understanding and enjoyment of this product. Unfortunately most days are not very fruitful, but still I return. The last thing I come to a thread for is assistance in a buying decision.

Likewise.

Edited by taurus2007. - 6/10/12 at 8:45am

Thanks. I read it. If I have a 12 bit panel, what should I set it to? At the moment I have it on 4:4:4 and it looks very fine. I would be interested in your settings seeing as you have a plasma.

I want to also ask you, when it comes to DVD's, what have you noticed this player does?

Me, I have noticed finer details in the DVD picture than before and even small details on a costume are now more prominent. In fact my brother in law yesterday after seeing Hugo on Blu Ray, thought my Bram Stoker's Dracula Superbit was a Blu Ray. He was very impressed with the picture and noticed the colours were beautiful. He had seen the Blu Ray version of BSD to compare and could not tell the difference.

Before this Sony BDP S790, Dracula Superbit looked washed out colour wise compared to the Blu Ray. Not any more.

I also notice that background details are better rendered than before. I think this player is amazing.

And the sound is even better too! As in more punchier.

Regarding the Oppo, because I saw it's picture capability in a showroom 5 days ago. Had I noticed better upscaling than the Sony, I would have gone for it. But in truth, the Sony is the better way to go because the price was one fifth of the Oppo.

Yes the Oppo may have more accurate RGB out of the box from what I have read. But this can be fixed on the Sony by manually setting the player. And I have seen reviews where the Sony passed all the video tests.

I respect those who have an Oppo, but the price is way too high in today's market place. To spend almost £1000, it would have to have show a mega difference in terms of performance. Marginal would not cut it for me.

A £!000 in the UK could buy you a high quality Panasonic Plasma if you shop around.

Warren,

Sorry: I can't help with settings. Most recently I compared results with the YUV 4:2:2 and YUV 4:4:4 settings and saw no difference between them, for what that's worth.

I'm not sure how I've given the impression that I have a plasma. My livingroom HT is based on a a Mitsubishi DLP front projector, and I have a Vizio LCD TV in the bedroom (which I'm using right now while typing this by way of a Marantz AVR connected with HDMI to my HTPC laptop). Most of my recent viewing has been of PAL DVDs from the UK (I just finished the 1st season of Life on Mars and the 3rd season of the new Dr. Who), which U.S. Sony players refuse to play

Hi mate

I have never owned a 590 so couldn't tell you. Previously had a Pioneer 50D and currently have the Oppo 93, both a couple or more years old. In the market the Sony is aimed at, the upscaling tech is a generation or two further on as processors in these mid priced machines from the corporate "big boys" Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Pioneer et al...have now elevated themselves to the reference type levels of the specialist Anchor Bay and Marvell upscaling chips. Some use their own chips like Sony and Panasonic, others use Anchor Bay or Marvell. In other words the mainstream and specialist markets have had to merge to be competitive. Technology is so fluid these days as ya know, so a year is a lifetime.

"Better" for me means scaling the signal exactly to the resolution of the screen on a per pixel basis (native resolution) with the least amount of artefacts introduced in that process. The S790 does that purdy well, as does the Oppo. The key reason the Sony has an edge competitively now, is it provides the same or similar video quality as the much pricier Oppo.

Purely used as a BRay/DVD player not withstanding streaming and audio, I'm sticking with the Sony and will sell off the Oppo 93.

Either way upscaling has come a long way in two years yes - BUT its now near its limit as Chris so rightly says.

I will be fascinated to see what the Sony upscaling is like at 4k of course!
Edited by dilsher - 6/10/12 at 6:57am

Thanks. I also noticed no difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2::2

I must have mistaken one of the posts with yours about the plasma.

PAL DVD. Do you watch PAL DVD's because the picture quality is better than a Region 1 DVD. I use Region 1 DVD to get 24 FPS playback.

Is there no hack for the Sony players in the USA? The reason I ask is because no Sony Blu Ray player in the UK comes with Region 1 playback. But a decent electronics store as in independent and not a chain will have a multi-region version of the player by hacking the code.

So I assume it must be possible to do the same in the USA. All they do is bypass the default region setting.

Hi Dilsher!

Great to read your findings. Yes I noticed nothing better when I saw an OPPO 95 in a local high end Audio Video store. Yes, I notice on Direct mode that the Sony BDP S790 gets rid of compression artifacts. On the S570, they were noticeable and especially in a dark room at night. I think it is to do with the way the video processor detects compression and eliminates it.

I agree that upscaling has come to the edge of 1080p DVD wise. Though the player gives you the option of enhancing it further if you want a DVD to have extra wow factor. Maybe not accurate but a DVD is not a reference source to begin with compared to a Blu Ray.

I am a long way away from getting a 4K tv set. But by then, the video processors in a 4K TV will be amazing anyway.

I have Lovefilm in the UK and the streaming is way, way faster though I admit it is a standard definition service in the UK. They charge too much for a HD version of an online film and that is a rip off considering that for double the HD streaming cost of watching a given movie, I could buy it on Blu Ray. Or rent the Blu Ray for half the price.
Edited by WarrenD - 6/10/12 at 7:29am

Presumably the same algorithm is used for replicating the colors in both players and displays; and our eyes aren't that good, anyhow
No problem. I'd probably get a plasma if I were looking for a large screen flat panel TV, but I'm not.
I agree their resolutions are better than US DVDs, but, actually, it's usually because I like getting UK titles before they're available in 60Hz format. And some of the Australian and NZ titles that I've gotten apparently never will be, neither as 60Hz nor on BD, even though they were shown on US TV long ago. In the particular case of the Dr.Who DVDs, it's mostly because when I decided to get them they were available in a single boxed set of the first 4 seasons at a reasonable price. I get most of my imported discs through a local bookstore which does a lot of import/export business of scifi books, too. Support your local stores! *ahem*
I agree that there must be such a mod available for the NTSC versions of the Sony players, but I haven't seriously investigated it. I already have a multi-region standalone player (Sherwood BDP-5004) and it's trivial to convert an external USB DVD player to play a different region for use with an HTPC, and they don't care what the frame rate is. Regions 0 (all-region) and 2 are all I'm seriously interested in.

So for now, my Sony player is mostly used for US BD movies and an occasional NTSC DVD.

Thanks for that reply. I heard about PAL Speedup of 4%. But in truth, it is barely, barely noticeable. Someone watching a film without any prior knowledge it is a PAL or NTSC DVD would not tell them apart.
All the PAL speedup does is raise the pitch by a semi-tone in musical terminology.

The way I see it, each system has it's faults.

One little question. When I play a Region 1 DVD, because it is converting it to PAL but without the speedup. I assume the encoded DVD resolution would be the same?

Though I am not denying player RGB accuracy is unimportant, I shall share an example of how an uneducated consumer reacts when you set the RGB to the correct level.

My sister the minute I set the player correctly, preferred the AUTO setting's colour output. The accurate setting made her think the image was less vibrant. And she is not the only one. So manufacturers knowing that their majority share of buyers are not going to care about video accuracy.

The videophile as well as audiophile market is a smaller share. So, the lowest common denominator is how the products are targeted.

Now a company like Oppo is not targeting the average consumer. But to make their money back from a smaller market share, their prices have to be high. Just a thought.

Whilst a Sony or Panasonic will make their money back through the concept of economy of scale.

Mainstream manufacturers set their defaults to what is psychologically pleasing to the eye. When they panel test a product, they go by the majority opinion of the group.No different when a film studio will alter a film after it has been screened to an audience based on the test answers they receive.

Warren,

For basic blu-ray and DVD playback the Oppo BDP0-93 (I doubt anyone considering the S790 is considering the BDP-95 it has the same video capabilities as the BDP-93.) is overkill. A better choice (in my opinion) would be the BDP-S790 or the new Panasonic DMP-BDT500. If you require competent Blu-ray, DVD and streaming the BDP-S790 (SACD) should be considered. If you require the aforementioned support and 7.1 then one may want to consider the Panasonic DMP-BDT500 (FLAC). However, if you need all the aforementioned and SACD, DVD-A, HDCD, ISO (firmware specific) and support for a host of other user created media, then the only reasonably price transport is the BDP-93. If you notice there is a justifiable price increase as your needs increase.

For me this would be a logical buying pattern.
Edited by bakerwi - 6/10/12 at 9:16am

I know what you mean. To be honest,the Sony BDP S790 has more than enough features. And though it may not have the 7.1 analog inputs, you could get a decent HDMI based AV Receiver for the money saved by not going Oppo.

And at the end of the day, what I buy a player for is picture quality and sound. If it does streaming that is a bonus, but I could ultimately live without those added features if push came to shove.

And though streaming has it's uses, the reality is that Blu Ray is still the best quality to watch a film in anyway.

My firend learned the hard way that spending astronomical sums on equipment is risky. He in the 1990's spent about £9,000 on his Laserdisc set up which included Dolby Pro Logic. But it becomes obsolete way, way faster than say 25 years ago. Not that I am arguing quality is unimportant. But to keep up with all the new technology, you need a fat bank account.

I don't think that Oppo will be able to have the streaming capabilities as the Sony. Oppo may not be able to mobilize all the App contractions that Sony has.

Yes, Sony will get the exclusives due to mass market penetration. I mean, Netflix are no way going to give Oppo an exclusive for their streaming device.

In the UK where I live. The Oppo dealer's shop is blatantly aimed at people with budgets of around £10,000 for a home cinema set up. He does Bang And Olufsen as well as Denon. If someone wants to spend thousands on an AV receiver, then the Oppo will look reasonable pricing wise. In fact, it is probably the cheapest device in that shop.

But I am grateful for the Sony BDP S790, because for me who is on a limited budget, it transforms my viewing experience without bleeding my bank account dry. Unemployment is growing and it is affordable even for someone on a limited income. That is fantastic!
Edited by WarrenD - 6/10/12 at 11:04am

Very true and it's discussed at length in the OPPO threads. .
I can't shop in similar retailers here either.

As for Bang and Olufsen the folks in Texas have them pegged when they say, "All hat and no cattle."

But very high end gear is where many features that we enjoy now got their start.
Actually, that's what the OPPO 93 did for me. Of course there wasn't a S790 when I bought the OPPO, but I'm still very happy with it. What was pointed out earlier is that there are many topics discussed in the OPPO threads that are of general benefit.

Oh sure. Until the BDP S790 came along, the Oppo was the ultimate and first choice. I was in fact toying with the idea of getting one because it had the best DVD Upscaler at the time. With Blu Ray it is harder to tell the difference picture wise between players. Marginal at best in general terms.

But then I read Joerod's review and that swayed me to go with the Sony. Using pure logic only. Joe has a $25,000 Sony 4K projector and if the Sony BDP S790 was not up to the job, he would not be singing it's praises. He owned the Oppo as well, so it is reasonable to deduce that he knew what to look out for in terms of performance and picture quality. And he tested for Oppo too!

So no doubt, Joe would have been highly suspicious of the Sony BDP S790 at first. I mean, I know I would be if my projector cost $25000.

And I will take Joe's point that tests are dependent on the equipment used. For instance, a test using a 4K projector will be different to a test using a 1080p one. I mean, this is a player that can Upscale to 4K and some professional reviews could not get access to a 4k projector. So it was good that Joe did the review as he has one. And it looked great on his 120 inch screen. So I knew it would look fine on my 50 inch because that is a comparatively smaller size.

The BDP S790 is a world class player at a budget price!

At the end of the day, I can happily say that I have never been happier with the DVD picture I am now getting. And Blu Ray is incredible too! That was so important for me, because I like world cinema and some of those films will never get a Blu Ray release due to them not being predicted as being a strong seller.

But it is great to hear different opinions as that makes a discussion interesting. All that matters to me is the picture quality and sound. Everything else takes second or third place.
Edited by WarrenD - 6/10/12 at 11:43am

I'm not sure what you mean by "the same". With DVDs, what you've been given on-disk is not what you see on-screen.

(A quibble is that if you use a digital connection, the on-disk video isn't being converted to PAL or NTSC color encoding. That only happens if you use a player's analog video output.)

If you're watching a Region 1 DVD video, its on-disk digital frame resolution is usually 720x480 pixels, a ratio of 15:10 (i.e. 3:2). It's usually composed of two interlaced fields of 720x240 pixels updated at a rate just slightly slower than 60 times per second. Region 2 DVDs usually have an on-disk digital frame resolution of 720x576 pixels. (Some are recorded at 704x480 or 704x576; progressive, non-interlaced, video is also supported.)

If the vertical resolution of 480 pixels is used on a display, 720 horizontal pixels have to be stretched horizontally to provide an 853x480 16:9 widescreen view (often called "anamorphic" or "enhanced for wide screen TVs") or compressed horizontally to provide a 640x480 4:3 "full screen" view. In either case, it means that the on-disk image was recorded using non-square pixels. This was no big deal in the age of analog CRT TVs. It adds a little complexity with modern square-pixel digital displays. How your player and/or display resample those recorded pixels to display the image on your screen is determined by how you've configured your player and TV.

Presumably your HDTV is capable of displaying 60 fps (my understanding is that that's required by the HD standards) so at least no speed-up or slow-down is required.

I'm waiting to hear from Sony about fixing the RGB issue before I go into massive depth. if it is going to be fixed next week, I'd rather not have to do every single test again to see if it changed. If I don't hear from them about it this week, I'll just start the testing on everything, but hopefully it'll get fixed.

If I understand correctly, all 4K projectors upscale on their own anyway, so an upscaler built into the player is not necessary. The upscaler in a player may or may not be better than the one in the projector, but even if it were absent in the player, the image would be upscaled regardless. If I am correct.

Second, you don't need the 790 for sacd. The sony 590 offers support for sacd as well. The 390 does also.

The 790 offers a faster processor, dual hdmi outs, and "super bit mapping," whatever that does.


In order to establish picture quality, 3 types of data are needed:

1. objective test results on dynamic range and accuracy

2. screenshots

3. A-B-C (etc) tests double blind where neither the viewers nor testers know which player's image is being displayed.


I have become increasingly skeptical of all PQ claims in the absence of such data. What's most bothersome are those who say that one player is better than another, when in fact they only own one player.

Due to joerod's review, tested oppo 95, 93 and sony s790. Apples and oranges, here. As 95 beats 93 easily on sound quality, sounding much more realistic on analog 7.1 outs to legacy equipment, 93 was out for me. 95 easily beats s790 on audio (it has beaten multithousand processors in reviews, so not a shock). s790 only has left, right dolby digital out for legacy equipment; you have to buy hdmi processor or receiver which at nearest BB was $500+. So best value of video and audio is actually the 93. And best audio (for $500 more) is the 95 which also has high end stereo out rated at A+, though for me it did not consistently win over older Sony ES cd player.

So why did I keep the s790? The test dvd - Austin Powers, Raiders. Bluray - CaddyShack, There's Something About Mary, T2, Hugo
Despite famed Qdeo upscaling, Sony much better, with clearer picture on dvds, near bluray sharpness. Did question whether 95 defaults had more pleasing color and better contrast, but pic was bit hazy. Clear win for Sony upscaling. Bluray Caddyshack pool scene a revelation with Sony, very realistic, other grainier scenes due to older picture cleaned up with the Sony. Still good to very good with Oppo though. Both Sony and Oppo downmixing sound to center on There's Something about Mary. Oppo very good pic, but Sony on apartment scenes could see everything in apartment clearly. Actors looked more realistic, too. T2, Sony slightly better with clearer Arnold and Terminator, but have to give 95 win due to much better sound quality. Hugo, Sony little clearer, but Oppo 95 tended to look better throughout, perhaps due matted colorized picture, so with sound a win for 95.

You do need a very good cable to see these differences, just as joerod has a very high end projector. Other factors, Oppo tends to have more hdmi handshake issues, taking 2 - 4 times when Sony takes 1 - 2 times. Sony much faster on pause and play, and on changing settings during movies. Sony does seem to have more judder (motion distortion) and color artifacts than Oppo which gets worse when using the higher settings joerod recommends. Sony does go darker in dark scenes, though Oppo may look better as can see more shadow detail. Sony will still go bright in bright scenes, though, but may have to adjust contrast for better whites.
Still wondering whether I should have kept 95 and Sony for different movies, that's how good the 95 movie sound is.