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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread - Page 41

post #1201 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by taurus2007. View Post

Bake, this forum is for folks to share their experiences on products and what the naked eye visualizes, if you are basing buying decisions on statistics then so be it but statistics and specifications do not always equal superior performance in output to the human eye. If you look at product reviews
and experiences it appears people base their buying decisions on user reviews.

Good point. When I go to the cinema, I have no idea of the equipment or if levels are correct either. But if it looks good to me, then I am none the wiser. I am at the mercy of the projectionist.

When I go to a top cinema or a local one,it is hard to tell the difference with the picture side of things at least. Sound is easier to tell apart as in which cinema has a more immersive sound experience.

But for me, it has to be visually pleasing. At the end of the day, film or video is not a realistic medium. 24 FPS is not how real life is anyway. Our eyes see at something like 200 FPS equivalent.

Sometimes getting into the technical side makes you spend more time analysing and less time enjoying. It is supposed to be entertainment after all.

So even with accuracy, at the end of the day it is artificial and based on optical illusions. It's not real anyway.

And the whole original idea of shooting films at 24FPS is to give it a purposely different experience to real life. People escape from their problems when they go to a cinema.

But those who love accuracy, then it is great to have someone set that up for you to get it to reference levels. Whatever floats the boat. All in the eyes of the beholder.

I would never attempt to calibrate myself. It requires a lot of mathematical and scientific knowledge. I barely understand the difference of colour spaces and grey scales are another planet for me comprehension wise.
Edited by WarrenD - 6/11/12 at 1:58pm
post #1202 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMCecil View Post

Your brain says yes, physics says no. I'll go with the later.

Physics say an electron will travel the path of least resistance and also if you change one variable, the equation it self when yield a different result ( hmm, not as predictable as we thought) Welcome to Quantum Mechanics and be prepared to be enlightened! Much of what we understand is being challenged! Keep up!
post #1203 of 3482
Wow, this thread has become pretty much useless. rolleyes.gif
post #1204 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenD View Post

Good point. When I go to the cinema, I have no idea of the equipment or if levels are correct either. But if it looks good to me, then I am none the wiser. I am at the mercy of the projectionist.
When I go to a top cinema or a local one,it is hard to tell the difference with the picture side of things at least. Sound is easier to tell apart as in which cinema has a more immersive sound experience.
But for me, it has to be visually pleasing. At the end of the day, film or video is not a realistic medium. 24 FPS is not how real life is anyway. Our eyes see at something like 200 FPS equivalent.
Sometimes getting into the technical side makes you spend more time analysing and less time enjoying. It is supposed to be entertainment after all.
So even with accuracy, at the end of the day it is artificial and based on optical illusions. It's not real anyway.
And the whole original idea of shooting films at 24FPS is to give it a purposely different experience to real life. People escape from their problems when they go to a cinema.

That is so true. I remember a few years ago when I got my first real home theatre equipment and I used to sit and listen for minute changes (real or imagined) to the sound and endlessly fiddling with various settings when watching a film and it got to the point where I totally lost the entertainment aspect and focused too much on the technical side of it.

The purpose of having a good system for me now days is to make the illusion more convincing and real and not to use it as a lab for continuously experimenting with settings which in the end can only reach a certain point which is perceived individually anyway. Who cares if something isn’t always measurable or set at the exact reference point all the time? Common sense goes a long way in this area as well and how dull it would be if we only were able to enjoy our systems if all variables could be objectively measured in a lab environment. That’s not what home cinema is to me, it’s about the immersion and experience a good system can provide.

Measurements and objective facts certainly have their place but in the end it’s a human that’s going to listen to a system so a subjective opinion of a reviewer is also important to me smile.gif
post #1205 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omitron View Post

That is so true. I remember a few years ago when I got my first real home theatre equipment and I used to sit and listen for minute changes (real or imagined) to the sound and endlessly fiddling with various settings when watching a film and it got to the point where I totally lost the entertainment aspect and focused too much on the technical side of it.
The purpose of having a good system for me now days is to make the illusion more convincing and real and not to use it as a lab for continuously experimenting with settings which in the end can only reach a certain point which is perceived individually anyway. Who cares if something isn’t always measurable or set at the exact reference point all the time? Common sense goes a long way in this area as well and how dull it would be if we only were able to enjoy our systems if all variables could be objectively measured in a lab environment. That’s not what home cinema is to me, it’s about the immersion and experience a good system can provide.
Measurements and objective facts certainly have their place but in the end it’s a human that’s going to listen to a system so a subjective opinion of a reviewer is also important to me smile.gif

Subjectivity still has to come into play no matter what. If an image is accurate but looks dull to the eye then it ruins the experience for so many. We are conditioned from a young age to like seeing things a certain way. I remember when I was in the States about 13 years ago and loved the NTSC television broadcast colour. It looked great to my eyes compared to the more accurate PAL TV I was used to.

It also amazes me to say this. But up until 3 and a half years ago, I had no idea that a film in the cinema had a way higher resolution than a DVD. .My perception was that the DVD looked better than the cinema version. And that included high end big city cinemas. Talk about back to front. But my TV was smaller back then so to my eyes, that is what I thought the reality is.

It's funny but my brother in law will spot every continuity error in a film whilst he is watching it. I mean he spotted things in one viewing that I missed in 50. Had he not said, I would not have noticed. I was more absorbed in the story than noticing that one apple was missing from a scene:)
Edited by WarrenD - 6/11/12 at 2:38pm
post #1206 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by taurus2007. View Post

Bake, this forum is for folks to share their experiences on products and what the naked eye visualizes, if you are basing buying decisions on statistics then so be it but statistics and specifications do not always equal superior performance in output to the human eye. If you look at product reviews
and experiences it appears people base their buying decisions on user reviews.

taurus,

The sharing of ones experiences and what the naked eye visualizes is only a part of what these forums are about; it is also for the sharing of technical knowledge, hence the “S” for Science in the sites name AVS Forum. With the exception of less than a handful of posters on this thread I have heard very little science and more of this transport is better than transport A or SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS on picture quality versus a current or past transport. I have yet to see a material difference between the transports I own and some that I have owned and my display is capable of discerning such a difference. Also, I can appreciate an owner’s joy for the acquisition of their new transport because I feel that same joy. I owned and have owned some of the same transports as some of the other forum members on this thread and my 20/10 vision just isn’t seeing some of these significant differences not that others are not seeing them.eek.gif

I don’t base buying decisions on statistics alone, but on the specifications and audition of the product in my environment. The statistics (OBJECTVIE) for me are invaluable; because they remove the subjective opinion of the reviewer and provide the most important aspects of the transport which for me is; is the product performing up to a reference standard if one exists. If so, then I know that I can always come back to a reference output even if I tinker with the settings during any particular viewing session. However, they say ignorance is bliss sometimes.smile.gif

When I come to a thread I already know (specifications, features, etc.) about the product in question. So I tune in for information to help me maximize my enjoyment of the product. Someone saying that the picture is better than another product or feeding me what I should be seeing is of no value to me. Some find value in the opinions and endorsement of others even though their environment and setup have nothing in common and that is fine.

I have never based a buying decision solely on a professional review. Early (25+ years ago) in this hobby of ours I had a very knowledgeable individual who taught me how to read and interpret a review and to look for what is not mentioned in the review. There were a few things to look for, but the most importance was objective results if avaiable. I have read every available review that I have been able to find on the internet for this transport and I have gained nothing of value from them. I am by no means a videophile, but I need more than adjectives about subjective picture quality. I know some better reviews are forthcoming and I just need to be patient.

I think the Sony BDP-S790 is a fine machine and I will be keeping it, but I do want to know its true capabilities and limitations as I do for all my transports. This helps me take full advantage of the transport and make decisions when another transport in my setup may be a better option.

If I am not mistaken you can’t calibrate your display if the transport can’t faithfully reproduce what’s on the disc if that is one of your sources for the calibration.

I guess we all frequent the various forums for different purposes.smile.gif
post #1207 of 3482
My objection to your previous discussion was that you made an attempt to "compare" a sony and oppo, even though you don't own and have never used the sony. Since you acknowledged that the sony has superior streaming capabilities, and since the sony does not have the analog outs of the oppo (no comparison is possible), the only basis for comparing the two players would be in terms of picture quality when you only owned one of the two players. smile.gif Hence, the absurdity of any "comparison."

Therefore, the problem is not with your assertion that the oppo has a reference picture, but your assumption (with zero experience) that the sony did not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Nope ( and get it right before you keep fanning flames)! never said it delivered a better picture at all,May have said the Oppo delivers a reference picture (which it does with empirical test data to back that up, do your research!) If you read my post I'm looking at the Sony as a second player and not to replace my 95. I'm doing my research gathering info. As for cables I'm the only one needed convincing on the matter and like others I post my experience. Best way to know is to try for yourself, in the end data can only tell you so much! let your Brain tell you yes or no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Besides streaming, no comparison
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Ok I give!eek.gif
post #1208 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Nope ( and get it right before you keep fanning flames)! never said it delivered a better picture at all,May have said the Oppo delivers a reference picture (which it does with empirical test data to back that up, do your research!) If you read my post I'm looking at the Sony as a second player and not to replace my 95. I'm doing my research gathering info. As for cables I'm the only one needed convincing on the matter and like others I post my experience. Best way to know is to try for yourself, in the end data can only tell you so much! let your Brain tell you yes or no.

Well, that is my point exactly. PERCEPTION =/= REALITY. Therefore, the perception that expensive cables offer darker blacks =/= the reality of truly deeper blacks. It is a figment of one's imagination, ie perception.

When a pirate has been out to sea too long and screams out "aaargh matie! I seez me a mermaid!" I don't doubt that the pirate has actually perceived a mermaid. It doesn't mean there's a mermaid in reality, however.
post #1209 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

taurus,
The sharing of ones experiences and what the naked eye visualizes is only a part of what these forums are about; it is also for the sharing of technical knowledge, hence the “S” for Science in the sites name AVS Forum. With the exception of less than a handful of posters on this thread I have heard very little science and more of this transport is better than transport A or SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS on picture quality versus a current or past transport. I have yet to see a material difference between the transports I own and some that I have owned and my display is capable of discerning such a difference. Also, I can appreciate an owner’s joy for the acquisition of their new transport because I feel that same joy. I owned and have owned some of the same transports as some of the other forum members on this thread and my 20/10 vision just isn’t seeing some of these significant differences not that others are not seeing them.eek.gif
I don’t base buying decisions on statistics alone, but on the specifications and audition of the product in my environment. The statistics (OBJECTVIE) for me are invaluable; because they remove the subjective opinion of the reviewer and provide the most important aspects of the transport which for me is; is the product performing up to a reference standard if one exists. If so, then I know that I can always come back to a reference output even if I tinker with the settings during any particular viewing session. However, they say ignorance is bliss sometimes.smile.gif
When I come to a thread I already know (specifications, features, etc.) about the product in question. So I tune in for information to help me maximize my enjoyment of the product. Someone saying that the picture is better than another product or feeding me what I should be seeing is of no value to me. Some find value in the opinions and endorsement of others even though their environment and setup have nothing in common and that is fine.
I have never based a buying decision solely on a professional review. Early (25+ years ago) in this hobby of ours I had a very knowledgeable individual who taught me how to read and interpret a review and to look for what is not mentioned in the review. There were a few things to look for, but the most importance was objective results if avaiable. I have read every available review that I have been able to find on the internet for this transport and I have gained nothing of value from them. I am by no means a videophile, but I need more than adjectives about subjective picture quality. I know some better reviews are forthcoming and I just need to be patient.
I think the Sony BDP-S790 is a fine machine and I will be keeping it, but I do want to know its true capabilities and limitations as I do for all my transports. This helps me take full advantage of the transport and make decisions when another transport in my setup may be a better option.
If I am not mistaken you can’t calibrate your display if the transport can’t faithfully reproduce what’s on the disc if that is one of your sources for the calibration.
I guess we all frequent the various forums for different purposes.smile.gif


True some reviews can be misleading. I once bought a Sony Bravia in 2009 based on well respected magazine giving it a 5 star review. The screen uniformity made me miss the days of CRT. And you had to sit in the centre of the screen as sitting to the side made black look grey.

They also say that no matter what technology you buy, it is rarely perfect. Especially electronics.People want lower prices and that means certain compromises are made. I am sure they can push it further, but the mass market likes bargains. The boutique market wants the reference standard.

And they want you to upgrade every few years. That is the business model. Cell/mobile phones come to mind as well.
post #1210 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenD View Post

But I have got used to the Direct setting on the BDP S790 and could not be happier.

I have found that this setting works best also.smile.gif
post #1211 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel View Post

Wow, this thread has become pretty much useless. rolleyes.gif

Yea ... sadly all the owners were driven away. Feel free to ask any questions about the player though in the 390/590 thread. Its much more friendly over there !
post #1212 of 3482
The high end audiophile scene lasted for decades based upon snake oil, voodoo, and the wishful thinking and hearing of it's followers.

I mean, companies were rigging up amps with super cheap tubes with incredibly inaccurate sound and extremely high distortion ratings and many thousands of listeners convinced themselves that these over-priced, highly distorted and inaccurate amps were better, ie more "warm" and musical!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

taurus,
The sharing of ones experiences and what the naked eye visualizes is only a part of what these forums are about; it is also for the sharing of technical knowledge, hence the “S” for Science in the sites name AVS Forum. With the exception of less than a handful of posters on this thread I have heard very little science and more of this transport is better than transport A or SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS on picture quality versus a current or past transport. I have yet to see a material difference between the transports I own and some that I have owned and my display is capable of discerning such a difference. Also, I can appreciate an owner’s joy for the acquisition of their new transport because I feel that same joy. I owned and have owned some of the same transports as some of the other forum members on this thread and my 20/10 vision just isn’t seeing some of these significant differences not that others are not seeing them.eek.gif
I don’t base buying decisions on statistics alone, but on the specifications and audition of the product in my environment. The statistics (OBJECTVIE) for me are invaluable; because they remove the subjective opinion of the reviewer and provide the most important aspects of the transport which for me is; is the product performing up to a reference standard if one exists.
post #1213 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

I have found that this setting works best also.smile.gif

Yes, the Direct is great. Do you take superbit mapping off as well?
post #1214 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

Yea ... sadly all the owners were driven away. Feel free to ask any questions about the player though in the 390/590 thread. Its much more friendly over there !

Actually, it was only joerod who "left" this thread. And no one was hostile towards him. What happened was that smackrabbit used his settings to post test data. Joerod became very angry when he discovered that his test settings led to an inaccurate picture with loss of information. He then stated that

-anyone who enjoyed a reference picture must be watching a "boring" picture.

-smackrabbit was out to destroy him

-the "majority" of consumers were on his side and were purchasing the sony 790, some image enhancer and projectors.


These were all ego-driven posts, none of them based in reality, and some of us stated so. At that point, he stated he was "leaving" the thread.

So in other words, it was actually a 790 owner who became hostile. And then he left only after a total inability to substantiate his claims of a better picture.
post #1215 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenD View Post

Yes, the Direct is great. Do you take superbit mapping off as well?

Yes I do, but my wife likes it on when she is streaming and she notices it when it is not on.biggrin.gif
post #1216 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by johncourt View Post

Actually, it was only joerod who "left" this thread. And no one was hostile towards him. What happened was that smackrabbit used his settings to post test data. Joerod became very angry when he discovered that his test settings led to an inaccurate picture with loss of information. He then stated that
-anyone who enjoyed a reference picture must be watching a "boring" picture.
-smackrabbit was out to destroy him
-the "majority" of consumers were on his side and were purchasing the sony 790, some image enhancer and projectors.
These were all ego-driven posts, none of them based in reality, and some of us stated so. At that point, he stated he was "leaving" the thread.
So in other words, it was actually a 790 owner who became hostile. And then he left only after a total inability to substantiate his claims of a better picture.

That's not entirely true, and there was also a personal attack ... but I'm not going to get into that here. In any case, you can count another owner leaving, cos I'm out too.
post #1217 of 3482
As for the reference player argument. The Sony Playstation 3 was heralded as a reference player by many reviewers including CNET.

If the PS3 was a BMW 3, then the BDP S790 is a Ferrari.smile.gif Because no way is the PS3 a better Blu Ray player now,
post #1218 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Yes I do, but my wife likes it on when she is streaming and she notices it when it is not on.biggrin.gif

That is interesting. I guess, I know that I have so many options at my disposal with this player should the need arise. But the bargain price is most welcome.
post #1219 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenD View Post

As for the reference player argument. The Sony Playstation 3 was heralded as a reference player by many reviewers including CNET.
If the PS3 was a BMW 3, then the BDP S790 is a Ferrari.smile.gif Because no way is the PS3 a better Blu Ray player now,

If I recall, cnet does not perform video tests aside from 'seat of the pants' subjective evaluations. They may also be influenced by commercial interests, ie advertisers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of objective testing out there. What is out there suggests that with the exception of player defects and enhancement settings, picture quality is identical from one brand to the next.
post #1220 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

That's not entirely true, and there was also a personal attack ... but I'm not going to get into that here. In any case, you can count another owner leaving, cos I'm out too.

If there was a personal attack, then copy and quote it here. Joerod stated that smackrabbit was out to destroy him, then he edited his own post quickly thereafter, deleting that comment.

Otherwise, I have asked for screenshots, screencaptures and any testing evidence to corroborate claims of a better picture by any brand of player. Not a single poster has posted this evidence, aside from smackrabbit.

While I agree that screenshots with a camera introduces more variables, it should be possible for someone to get screen captures from a computer monitor with a player hooked up to it via computer.
post #1221 of 3482
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't players just get the bits off the blu ray disk and pass them down the HDMI pipe? If there's no upscaling involved, or no special enhancements, don"t all BR players give the same signal? confused.gif
post #1222 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't players just get the bits off the blu ray disk and pass them down the HDMI pipe? If there's no upscaling involved, or no special enhancements, don"t all BR players give the same signal? confused.gif
That's what I understand. There have been test bench results that indicate that while doing the Blu-ray data pass through, some players have introduced error. There is probably some one in the OPPO 03 owner's thread that can point you to those results. That's where I fist read about it.
post #1223 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't players just get the bits off the blu ray disk and pass them down the HDMI pipe? If there's no upscaling involved, or no special enhancements, don"t all BR players give the same signal? confused.gif

That is my understanding as well. Players and cables do not add zero's and ones to the data stream. Some players have defects (sony and rgb color), and most allow for picture adjustments, but otherwise, it's exactly the same data stream. This is why hdmi cables simply either work or don't work--they don't change the picture. Essentially, all properly functioning blu ray players output a "reference" picture.
post #1224 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisccheese View Post

Wow, the members sure get nasty here on this site, especially since I was supporting the S790. Sorry, do not have high end camera or time to take pics like joerod. I did have exactly joerod's settings initially. I had SBM engaged at all times. Yes, good question on the Oppo 95; I did try the noise reduction and sharpness. It helped but I started seeing judder problems. I still kept it at level 1 and I ended up backing off on joerod's settings due to negative impact and that was also at level 1 for superresolution. As for cables, I was most of the time using a 10 dollar xtreme hdmi cable and could still see the sony vs oppo difference. I then got a longer and more expensive cable and believe it or not it looked better. Agree since digital it should not, but it did. This was true for both the sony and the oppo. And if people think they can get a 250 dollar sony and a 200 dollar 7.1 hdmi receiver for less than the 500 dollar oppo 93 ok.

It should be possible for someone to take screen captures from a computer.
post #1225 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by johncourt View Post

If I recall, cnet does not perform video tests aside from 'seat of the pants' subjective evaluations. They may also be influenced by commercial interests, ie advertisers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of objective testing out there. What is out there suggests that with the exception of player defects and enhancement settings, picture quality is identical from one brand to the next.

http://reviews.cnet.com/how-we-test/blu-ray-players/
post #1226 of 3482
Good info. I've watched a number of their video reviews. Their reviewer states that blu ray playback is the same from one brand to the next.
post #1227 of 3482
i was thinking of getting one of these players but i was wondering if i can playback video from my pc with tversity
post #1228 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I understand. There have been test bench results that indicate that while doing the Blu-ray data pass through, some players have introduced error. There is probably some one in the OPPO 03 owner's thread that can point you to those results. That's where I fist read about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't players just get the bits off the blu ray disk and pass them down the HDMI pipe? If there's no upscaling involved, or no special enhancements, don"t all BR players give the same signal? confused.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by johncourt View Post

That is my understanding as well. Players and cables do not add zero's and ones to the data stream. Some players have defects (sony and rgb color), and most allow for picture adjustments, but otherwise, it's exactly the same data stream. This is why hdmi cables simply either work or don't work--they don't change the picture. Essentially, all properly functioning blu ray players output a "reference" picture.

That's the common understanding, and incorrect. You can read why here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/technical-topics/blu-ray-player-hdmi-benchmark-introduction.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/technical-topics/hdmi-follow-up.html

The root is: The format on the Blu-ray disc can't be played by consumer equipment, so it has to be converted before leaving the player, and they don't all do it right. There is far more detail in the articles.
post #1229 of 3482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I understand. There have been test bench results that indicate that while doing the Blu-ray data pass through, some players have introduced error. There is probably some one in the OPPO 03 owner's thread that can point you to those results. That's where I fist read about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't players just get the bits off the blu ray disk and pass them down the HDMI pipe? If there's no upscaling involved, or no special enhancements, don"t all BR players give the same signal? confused.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by johncourt View Post

That is my understanding as well. Players and cables do not add zero's and ones to the data stream. Some players have defects (sony and rgb color), and most allow for picture adjustments, but otherwise, it's exactly the same data stream. This is why hdmi cables simply either work or don't work--they don't change the picture. Essentially, all properly functioning blu ray players output a "reference" picture.

That's the common understanding, and incorrect. You can read why here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/technical-topics/blu-ray-player-hdmi-benchmark-introduction.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/technical-topics/hdmi-follow-up.html

The root is: The format on the Blu-ray disc can't be played by consumer equipment, so it has to be converted before leaving the player, and they don't all do it right. There is far more detail in the articles.
It was your work that I had read about. Now I'll read the original. biggrin.gif
post #1230 of 3482
Me thinks that there is another problem.

Either a warranty replacing bad player, or, something else is amiss in the system.
Just got my new 590, and it was a pleasure to see the definite improvement over the replaced Samsung.
Impressed enough to buy another to replace an older Sony, and more than likely get my hands on the 790 when it becomes available!
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