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Sony Crystal LED Display - new display tech - Page 2

post #31 of 405
1/10/12 at 1:20pm
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I've found some interesting info late last night. Specs:

Quote:


Tokyo, Japan - January 10, 2012 - Sony Corporation ("Sony") today announced that it has developed the next-generation self-emitting display, "Crystal LED Display," and presents a Full HD, 55-inch prototype model at the '2012 International CES' (International Consumer Electronics Show held in Las Vegas, Nevada, from January 10 - 13, 2012). It is the industry's first 55-inch Full HD self-emitting display using LEDs as the light source.

The "Crystal LED Display" is a self-emitting display that uses Sony's unique methods to mount ultrafine LEDs in each of the Red-Green-Blue (RGB) colors, equivalent to the number of pixels (approximately six-million LEDs for Full HD). The RGB LED light source is mounted directly on the front of the display, dramatically improving the light use efficiency. This results in images with strikingly higher contrast (in both light and dark environments), wider color gamut, superb video image response time, and wider viewing angles when compared to existing LCD and plasma displays, with low power consumption. Furthermore, due to the display's structure, the "Crystal LED Display" is also ideal for large screens.

Compared to existing LCD displays, the 55-inch prototype exhibited at CES is boasting approximately 3.5 times higher contrast in light environment, approximately 1.4 times wider color gamut, and approximately 10 times faster video image response time (all values based on current Sony models). Sony envisages a wide range of applications for its "Crystal LED Display", ranging from professional to consumer use. Parallel to its continued development and commercialization of organic light emitting diode (OLED) displays, Sony will work conscientiously to bring the "Crystal LED Display" to market.


< Main specifications of the prototype >
Panel size: 55-inch
Number of pixels: 1,920 x 1,080 x RGB
(Full HD: uses approx. 2 million each of RGB LEDs,
a total of around 6 million LEDs)
Display elements: RGB LEDs
Brightness: Approximately 400 cd/m2
Viewing angle: Approximately 180 degrees
Contrast (dark environment): More than measurable limit values
Color gamut: More than 100% compared to NTSC (xy)
Power consumption (panel module): Under approximately 70W


So that 3.5x contrast number we were wondering about ... that's actually in reference to a daytime/light environment. In a dark environment, it exceeds the measurable limit. Since it also has a brightness of 400 cd/m2 (similar to current OLED) ... this technology appears to basically have the same performance as OLED. Similar brightness, black level, and contrast.

Also, the power consumption seems pretty decent. I don't know what the upcoming OLED panels are using, but 70W is obviously a nice improvement over LCD. I'm curious what the 'ideal for large screens' is referring to. Do they mean at 55" versus other techs ... or are they insinuating this tech may be applicable for really large screens like 75"+?




One last thing before I update tonight (assuming I didn't lose my links - something bad appears to have happened with my google doc containing the info) ... a very interesting quote came out of this during an interview.

Quote:


Parallel to its continued development and commercialization of organic light emitting diode (OLED) displays, Sony will work conscientiously to bring the Crystal LED Display to market.

Where the reports of Sony bowing out of consumer TV OLED possibly wrong?

While ambiguous, some analysts are reading that this may imply continued OLED research for consumer displays. It's possible the prior information got lost in translation, and was referring to either the specific line, or the line and the specific type of OLED panel being employed? Hard to tell - hopefully this will get straitened out.




Regardless, this tech is starting to sound like a viable OLED competitor now that we have a better understanding of the specs. It may come down to fabrications costs and yields.
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post #32 of 405
1/10/12 at 1:23pm
Quantum Dot displays = nanocrystal

This is great marketing by Sony. Don't call the display Quantum Dot which doesn't have a good ring to it. Call it a "Crystal" or "Crystal LED" display because it sounds much better.

Hopefully Sony can pull off a Crystal-Tron TV.
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post #33 of 405
1/10/12 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

don't believe its the HX929, would be a reeeally stupid move.

The comparison LED LCD set is almost certainly a 55HX929. Note the rectangular off axis blooming in the local dimming around the on screen Sony logo in the picture a few posts above. Additionally, in at least one of the YouTube videos, the XBR logo is visible on the upper right hand corner of the LED LCD bezel.

AJ
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post #34 of 405
1/10/12 at 2:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone-1 View Post

Quantum Dot displays = nanocrystal

This is great marketing by Sony. Don't call the display Quantum Dot which doesn't have a good ring to it. Call it a "Crystal" or "Crystal LED" display because it sounds much better.

Hopefully Sony can pull off a Crystal-Tron TV.

While there isn't much information to go on, I'm not so sure this is actually a quantum dot display ... though I must admit, the naming does make it interesting to speculate. This sounds like it's some type of inorganic LED semiconductor creation.

I would think they'd be more than happy to announce it as such if it were actually a QD display though


Or am I nuts here?
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post #35 of 405
1/10/12 at 2:52pm
raistlin, the comment about the 929 was from a video posted in your thread on gaf. (noticed your post there about the speculation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=yZfbwPof33I#!

1:05 into this video he mentions its the current top of the line bravia.
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post #36 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

raistlin, the comment about the 929 was from a video posted in your thread on gaf. (noticed your post there about the speculation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=yZfbwPof33I#!

1:05 into this video he mentions its the current top of the line bravia.

Ha thanks! I'll update the gaf thread when I get home.
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post #37 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone-1 View Post

Quantum Dot displays = nanocrystal

This is great marketing by Sony. Don't call the display Quantum Dot which doesn't have a good ring to it. Call it a "Crystal" or "Crystal LED" display because it sounds much better.

Hopefully Sony can pull off a Crystal-Tron TV.

It's not likely this is QLED display because the tech isn't ready yet and Sony would have made far more noise about it because it would be an OLED killer. "Quantum Display" sounds much more exciting than "Crystal LED" display.
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post #38 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:38pm
Sony hired a Nobel Prize winning chemist a couple of years ago. Dr. Ei-ichi Negishi works for Sony now.

Quote:


The ball was set rolling in the 1960s, by Dr Heck, of the University of Delaware. He used palladium to promote reactions involving alkenesmolecules in which two carbon atoms are joined by what is known as a double bond (each carbon atom can form up to four bonds with other atoms, which is why there are so many types of organic compound). Dr Negishi, of Purdue University, then went on to improve the process, by involving zinc-based compounds, as well as palladium. Dr Suzuki, of the University of Sapporo Hokkaido University in Sapporo, Japan, applied the finishing touches by adding boron compounds to the mix. The result is a set of chemical processes that are used to make a host of drugs, such as Taxol, and also complex chemicals such as fungicides. They might even be used to turn out new forms of computer screen.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babba...nobel_prizes_1


Sony engineers might have identified an opportunity a few years back thanks to Dr. Ei-ichi Negishi and they hired him. Sony may have leap frogged ahead.
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post #39 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

raistlin, the comment about the 929 was from a video posted in your thread on gaf. (noticed your post there about the speculation)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=yZfbwPof33I#!

1:05 into this video he mentions its the current top of the line bravia.

Ah crap ... the video looks to be private now

EDIT - it's back
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post #40 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:51pm
Sony is now part of a consortium, Japan Display, that Hitachi Toshiba and Sony have created with Japan's Innovation Network Corp of Japan to combine small LCD lcd panel business and also continue to develop OLED for the future.

Toshiba Sony and Hitachi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Where the reports of Sony bowing out of consumer TV OLED possibly wrong?

While ambiguous, some analysts are reading that this may imply continued OLED research for consumer displays. It's possible the prior information got lost in translation, and was referring to either the specific line, or the line and the specific type of OLED panel being employed? Hard to tell - hopefully this will get straitened out.




Regardless, this tech is starting to sound like a viable OLED competitor now that we have a better understanding of the specs. It may come down to fabrications costs and yields.
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post #41 of 405
1/10/12 at 3:51pm
At the risk of bringing Auditor 55 screaming and snarling out of his man cave, is this sony crystal LED technology a variant of the vanished SED technology?
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post #42 of 405
1/10/12 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

What are the photodiodes for?

The photodiodes are to recieve light from a upper layer on the panel that lights up when x-rays hit it. These panels are input devices for x-ray medical devices.

After designing processes for these types of things for years now I get a big kick out of seeing people on this board talk about how you can't put 6 million inorganic LEDs on glass when they have no issue with believing that you can put 8 million transistors on glass in a standard LCD screen.

It is no problem to construct the panel, I just wonder how bright you can get a LED that is so small. Also I think that the lifetime issues would be in question just like OLED.
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post #43 of 405
1/10/12 at 4:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCA don View Post

At the risk of bringing Auditor 55 screaming and snarling out of his man cave, is this sony crystal LED technology a variant of the vanished SED technology?

Sony was actually involved in SED's cousin, FED (field emission display) ... not SED.

That said (har har), this appears to be unrelated. It's some sort of semiconductor LED technology. FED is more akin to 3 tiny cathode ray tubes (RGB) for each pixel ... igniting phosphors at their end. Basically a fixed-pixel CRT that can be as thin as LCD.
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post #44 of 405
1/10/12 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Why would you "assemble" 6 million discreet LEDs?

You would need control for each on panel, so would build an LED on glass the same way you build a TFT panel.

I have customers now that are building TFT panels that have Photo Diodes on top of the TFT for each pixel. Right now they are getting about 8 million pixels this way on a roughly 12" by 12" panel with no problems.

Interesting. Good old Chip on Glass implementation? But how do u transport current? TFT as well?

I would think manufacturing chips on 4/6/8/12 or even 18" which is later cut is very different from making them work on a TV area size

I'm skeptical if Sony resolve the heat issue. Otherwise the TV won't last a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

The substrate is silicon. The silicon is doped with Gallium, Arsenic and other trace elements.
Modern LEDs aren't much different from each other.

As slacker mention, the substrate should be sapphire. And they are not the same. There is Nichia and Cree implementation. I thought there is still issue in one of the colors IIRC Blue?
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post #45 of 405
1/10/12 at 4:54pm
Thread Starter 
If you search around, there's seems to be a lot of advancement in the area of silicon substrate LED of late.
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post #46 of 405
1/10/12 at 5:29pm


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL; View Post

the sony dude called it "last years top of the line" in another video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength; View Post

The comparison LED LCD set is almost certainly a XBR 55HX 929

ok.

Its a dumb thing to doYou do not want your current top of the line look like that!




Whats going on here^^ The Crystal LED is brownish.
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post #47 of 405
1/10/12 at 5:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post





ok.

Its a dumb thing to doYou do not want your current top of the line look like that!

Yeah you'd think. I'd suspect they're relying on the fact that most reviews point to it as the best available LCD (unless you want to jump tiers to a Sharp Elite) ... so it's not like people are going to suddenly think it's ****.

On the contrary, they'll just be even more impressed by how good this new tech is.


Quote:


Whats going on here^^ The Crystal LED is brownish.

The two screens are facing at slightly different angles. Look at the bezel towards the upper right corner ... it's getting hit directly by some sort of overhead light.
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post #48 of 405
1/10/12 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT; View Post

The two screens are facing at slightly different angles. Look at the bezel towards the upper right corner ... it's getting hit directly by some sort of overhead light.

Looks like a KURO with a reddish tint problem to me
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post #49 of 405
1/10/12 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Interesting. Good old Chip on Glass implementation? But how do u transport current? TFT as well?

Well a diode is akin to a transistor and less complex... I can't be the only one here who has a background in semiconductor and lcd processing.

Silicon is applied as a thin film in a PVD process, using the appropriate combinations of elements to make them P or N type. The glass does not carry any current, it is just the platform that the device is made on, layer by layer. Properly done, building LEDs on glass could be simpler than building a TFT panel for a LCD, but then you would have more off panel control I would think.

Also this is not really an nanometer line width process either like you would find on a modern processor. Most of the stuff you will find on a LCD backplane is not even sub-micron. This makes it well within the range of current and even older equipment, and an LCD line could be setup easily for the purpose.
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post #50 of 405
1/10/12 at 7:31pm
^^^ Yes LED manufacturing is considered low end manufacturing. The only thing preventing more people doing it is patents of Nichia and Cree. Otherwise it would have been a grab-all solar panel industry by now.

My question is how do you provide the electricity to the individual diodes over a TV panel of 6million diodes? If it can be done efficiently I am wondering why lightbars are not done that way, or what's stopping LG's QLED. And you haven't answered the heat issue or that's not an issue with your expertise.

I have no background in semicon or LCD processing but I know ROUGHLY how it works. I also know roughly how nuclear reactors work so that Doosan Heavy might have a chance in taking market share. I also have a rough idea how Eurozone LTRO works. We each have our expertise.
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post #51 of 405
1/10/12 at 8:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Looks like a KURO with a reddish tint problem to me

Considering the black/dark grey bezel is also reddish ... obviously it's either the overhead lighting itself, or in combination with the camera (look at the reddish tint to the guy's face).
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post #52 of 405
1/10/12 at 8:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

My question is how do you provide the electricity to the individual diodes over a TV panel of 6million diodes? If it can be done efficiently I am wondering why lightbars are not done that way, or what's stopping LG's QLED. And you haven't answered the heat issue or that's not an issue with your expertise.

While I don't know enough about LED to speak to heat considerations, for electricity ... how do LCD's work? Or Plasma? Or OLED? All of them are individually addressing 6+ million sub-pixels with a P and N. You have to have current (flow of energy from P to N) in order to power the illumination of Plasma and OLED, and to 'twist' LCD pixels ... and each sub-pixel requires individual control.
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post #53 of 405
1/10/12 at 9:05pm
What ever happened to liquid crystal on silicon?
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post #54 of 405
1/10/12 at 9:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

What ever happened to liquid crystal on silicon?

It's a projection-only technology, there is no direct-view equivalent. Sony (SXRD), JVC (D-ILA), and Epson (Reflective 3LCD) all offer front-projectors using their implementation of the tech.

Everyone using LCoS bailed on the rear projection market though. It's now just Mitsubishi as the only mainstream RPTV maker, and they use DLP.



As a side note - I'm watching TV on my Sony 60A3000 SXRD right now
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post #55 of 405
1/10/12 at 9:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG View Post

Why would you "assemble" 6 million discreet LEDs

You wouldn't, which is why I said: "You basically have to fabricate a backplane with 6 million LEDs on it. Only they are inorganic LEDs instead of another kind of LEDs, the organic kind, i.e. OLEDs. "

Maybe you missed those sentences?

Then you wrote:

"You would need control for each on panel, so would build an LED on glass the same way you build a TFT panel. "

Which is what I stated in the quoted matter above.

The problem is that light emitting diodes have never been fabricated in this manner. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but one should ask a serious question: Why is everyone in the entire industry focused on organic LED when there is this super simple way to fabricate an inorganic LED panel that as easy to build as an LCD panel, only it's emissive. There can only be one answer: It's not that easy.

Perhaps you are aware of some way to do this since you have an infinitely stronger background in the arena than I do, but the difficulty in fabricating OLEDs suggests it will be similarly difficult with inorganic LEDs, perhaps even more so.

EDIT: What mkoesel said is a variant of what I'm trying to get across. His post combined with mine might help some people understand this better (assuming Sony's display is what they implied it is).
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post #56 of 405
1/10/12 at 9:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The problem is that light emitting diodes have never been fabricated in this manner. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but one should ask a serious question: Why is everyone in the entire industry focused on organic LED when there is this super simple way to fabricate an inorganic LED panel that as easy to build as an LCD panel, only it's emissive. There can only be one answer: It's not that easy.

A corollary to this question is why would Sony, who's been on the leading edge of consumer OLED TV R&D since the beginning, bother pursuing this in conjunction with the former unless they feel it holds promise? And that's before considering Sony has decided to halt consumer OLED TV development, assuming recent reports are accurate. This isn't to say it will be easy by any means ... but there has to be some reason for all of this.

I think the logical answer is they must feel they've at least got the potential for a tenable process. For CES they brought not only a functional prototype, but one that's actually quite impressive by all accounts. Assuming this was all an elaborate troll to rain on LG and Samsung's OLED parade seems like a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?



Really all we know is this is LED based - which really says nothing about the fabrication process, nor what even constitutes the LED's themselves. It could be quantum dot ... fully silicon-based LED ... something totally different?
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post #57 of 405
1/10/12 at 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

... this technology appears to basically have the same performance as OLED. Similar brightness, black level, and contrast

Except it is using inorganic materials, seems to have a simpler design (easier to manufacture?) and has the LEDs mounted right on the surface of the display, avoiding the viewing angle problems that OLED has.

It would be interesting to see how the use of inorganic LEDs affects things like burn-in and the lifespan of the RGB LEDs compared to OLED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I'm curious what the 'ideal for large screens' is referring to. Do they mean at 55" versus other techs ... or are they insinuating this tech may be applicable for really large screens like 75"+?

While I'm sure it's not as simple as they make it out to be, to quote Arturo Jordan from Sony:

"...this would be very easy to scale up, because once you figure out how to, you know, lay down a screen of a certain size, to make one bigger, you just put more LEDs."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brimstone-1 View Post

Quantum Dot displays = nanocrystal

This is great marketing by Sony. Don't call the display Quantum Dot which doesn't have a good ring to it. Call it a "Crystal" or "Crystal LED" display because it sounds much better.

Hopefully Sony can pull off a Crystal-Tron TV.

I don't think this is a quantum dot display at all. I haven't been following it too closely, but wouldn't a quantum dot LED display have a considerably wider gamut than 1.4x their current displays, and wouldn't its brightness be more like 40,000 cd/m² rather than 400?

In fact, I would have expected Sony to highlight that information if that were the case.
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post #58 of 405
1/11/12 at 12:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

I think the logical answer is they must feel they've at least got the potential for a tenable process. For CES they brought not only a functional prototype, but one that's actually quite impressive by all accounts. Assuming this was all an elaborate troll to rain on LG and Samsung's OLED parade seems like a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you agree?

Actually I wouldn't even think this is a stretch. I've not heard people talk about LED TV for a very long time, like 36 months, since LED backlit first came out and people were talking about RGB LED prototypes that were so ridiculously expensive when LEDs were like 10X the price now.

And suddenly here it comes. No supply chain news, no competitors talking about it. I think maybe it will be Stringer's farewell gift
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post #59 of 405
1/11/12 at 2:01am
A quantum dot LED is a nanocrystal LED.

Crystal LED = Sony's brand name for QD-LED.

Trinitron = Sony's brand name for aperture grille CRTs

Diamondtron = Mitsubishi's brand name for aperture grille CRTs


CES is more about marketing than engineering aspects. Sony is establishing "Crystal" displays.
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post #60 of 405
1/11/12 at 3:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

If you search around, there's seems to be a lot of advancement in the area of silicon substrate LED of late.

So which listed company makes LED on silicon substrate so I can ask around?Otherwise I assume it is still lab phase?
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