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Sony Crystal LED Display - new display tech - Page 4

post #91 of 405
http://displaydaily.com/2012/01/12/s...not-a-product/

Quote:


Sony representatives new very little about the screens they were showing, beyond what we've just said. They had no knowledge of how the screens are fabricated or what the cost issues might be. They were, however, emphatic in saying that CrystalLED is a technology demonstration and that there are no plans for it to be a product.

Now we know why. An extremely reliable source in the Asian display industry has informed Display Daily that the CrystalLED screen is composed of roughly 6.2 million LED chips (one for each sub-pixel) wire bonded to the appropriate pads. The result is a beautiful display, but it's hard to imagine Sony building it in volume at anything approaching an acceptable cost.

A practical inorganic LED panel does have attractions. It could solve the blue aging problem and consequent color shift that bedevils OLED displays. Inorganic blue LEDs are famously long-lived. (They are the emissive engines in all of the white LEDs used in the backlight of cell phones, notebook PCs, and LED-lit LCD-TVs.) They could also be more efficient, if miniature LEDs share the luminous efficiency of their large brothers used in solid state lighting.

So, are their ways of making an inorganic LED display that could be competitive in cost with AMOLED? Maybe. At least one other panel-maker has been looking at the problem and considering how inorganic LEDs could be placed on a glass substrate in economical ways. Wire bonding is not part of that solution.
post #92 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

Not liking the pixel fill-rate here though. Hopefully that can improve, as it seems pretty damn low.

Yeah, I was somewhat concerned when I saw that. I did suspect the fill rate was quite low from earlier photos showing moiré from quite a distance away from the screen, but this confirmed it.
post #93 of 405
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Yeah, I was somewhat concerned when I saw that. I did suspect the fill rate was quite low from earlier photos showing moiré from quite a distance away from the screen, but this confirmed it.

I think I'd find it hard to move from SXRD to something like this unless it improves.
post #94 of 405
Quote:
Now we know why. An extremely reliable source in the Asian display industry has informed Display Daily that the CrystalLED screen is composed of roughly 6.2 million LED chips (one for each sub-pixel) wire bonded to the appropriate pads. The result is a beautiful display, but it's hard to imagine Sony building it in volume at anything approaching an acceptable cost.

Why would they need chips and not just wires for each subpixel leading to one large chip?, seems like a weird conclusion.
post #95 of 405
The explanation of Daily Display from their extremely reliable source has nothing to do with how Sony would manufacture these en masse, if they choose to pursue this technology.
post #96 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by tory40 View Post

Why would they need chips and not just wires for each subpixel leading to one large chip?, seems like a weird conclusion.

Each subpixel is an LED chip. What do you mean one large chip? In any case the large "chip" can only be as large as the 6" wafer.
post #97 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Each subpixel is an LED chip. What do you mean one large chip? In any case the large "chip" can only be as large as the 6" wafer.

My guess is that if they go ahead with this, they will create something between a 1" square and 4" square chip with the corresponding number of LEDs that the size dictates, and fit those together.

If the LED part where a 100-pixel-square piece (let's just assume it won't be smaller for a moment; and that would be smaller than my guess above), that would lead to there being 200 of them in a display. In theory, the part could be wafer-sized. That leads to somewhat easier assembly, but somewhat more silicon waste (although I imagine that's all recycled without much loss there is still throughput loss by having all those unused "edges").
post #98 of 405
i saw an article from znet over on another forum which sourced the wsj as stating that this thing will be out in 2012.

hopefully we get a separate special event with the announcement in the coming months. i dont want to wait for oled prices to drop if this is just as good.
post #99 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

i saw an article from znet over on another forum which sourced the wsj as stating that this thing will be out in 2012.

hopefully we get a separate special event with the announcement in the coming months. i dont want to wait for oled prices to drop if this is just as good.

I'd love it if that happenedthe HMZ-T1 OLED Head-Mounted Display was shown at CES 2011 as a prototype not ready for production, and ended up being released Q4.

I just don't see it though, this seems like it's at least a couple of years off.
post #100 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

i saw an article from znet over on another forum which sourced the wsj as stating that this thing will be out in 2012.
.

It won't be. Sorry.
post #101 of 405
youre 100% sure, huh?

source?
post #102 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

youre 100% sure, huh?

Yes.
Quote:
source?

Sony, which has no current means of manufacturing nor have the committed to ever manufacturing it. You don't go from "technology demonstration" to "shipping product" in 10 months.

Look, believe what you want, I don't care. I'd love to see Sony commit to this and build it. I spoke with several people there about doing that. It's clear they have made no such choice yet, but perhaps they will.

If so, commercialization might come as soon as next year, but even that makes a lot of assumptions about their ability to perfect some critical manufacturing processes that don't exist yet.
post #103 of 405
No way in 2012 if you've been reading the discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

The biggest giveaway to me is the lack of chatter in the supply chain.

In addition like I said, I don't think Sony is even a major LED chip player. There is very disctinct value chain within the semicon processing from ingot growing to backend test. CLED requires knowledge and improvement on the front end which Sony lack which means they need Toyoda Gosei (most likely) to commit R&D into it. Not impossible but show me the $ first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My guess is that if they go ahead with this, they will create something between a 1" square and 4" square chip with the corresponding number of LEDs that the size dictates, and fit those together.

If the LED part where a 100-pixel-square piece (let's just assume it won't be smaller for a moment; and that would be smaller than my guess above), that would lead to there being 200 of them in a display. In theory, the part could be wafer-sized. That leads to somewhat easier assembly, but somewhat more silicon waste (although I imagine that's all recycled without much loss there is still throughput loss by having all those unused "edges").
post #104 of 405
I tend to agree 2012 seams too soon to see a CLED. However, that "Sony Exec" is pretty bold to tell the WSJ they will be available later this year.

I wonder if Sony is close though, i.e. 2013, 2014 etc.

Thoughts?
post #105 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post

Motion looks very bad, and look at the lines at 1:40 in the Video. It looks strange. The people and the environment looking like a cheaply designed collage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdiHJ...layer_embedded

Since no one really responded to this, having seen the CrystalLED in person during the show, the motion was nothing short of amazing. No lag, no blurring, no trailing colors, nothing. Perfect, smooth, just amazing as you really have never seen a display that looks like this in motion before. That was probably the most impressive thing about it, though I've also been focusing on motion resolution the past couple months so I'm just really sensitive to it at the moment.

I thought the Sony was the best display at the show, ahead of the OLED displays, and the 8K display, for a few reasons:

- Off-axis it was perfect. The LG OLED whites had a green tint off axis, and I didn't check well enough on the Samsung to be certain.
- Sony used much better, real world demo material. Samsung had a lot of CGI stuff that doesn't give you any indication how it might handle a skin tone, or a normal movie. LG had half of their sets running a horrid 3D demo loop (everything comes WAY out of the screen, giving me a headache instantly) and so it was harder to get a good feel for it. Seeing real material was very good.
- Motion was just so good. Nothing against the OLED displays, as they looked great, but just didn't have the same "wow" factor as the OLED.
- The Sharp 8K had incredible resolution, but otherwise the panel was just a bit ordinary in terms of off-axis, blacks, motion, and contrast ratio.

I have no idea if Sony will release a model of this in the future at any point, and only they might if anyone does. No one was telling me that. However, out of everything I saw at CES, it's what I wanted to take home with me the most. I can just hope at CEDIA this fall we can get some more news on it, as that would be great.
post #106 of 405
Oh, and the scanning didn't bother me at all, and except for the fact that I could see it on the screen of my digital camera, I never would have noticed it.
post #107 of 405
^^ FWIW I have no doubt the CLED looks great . It makes sense from a technical point of view:
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

"Crystal" LED is the ultimate holy Grail for LED ie RGB emitters without LC or color filters.

But issue with LED has always been heat. Wonder what the spec for Sony's LEDs are.

But my doubt is whether they can make them in volume anytime soon. And still no one talks about the heat issue.
post #108 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

But my doubt is whether they can make them in volume anytime soon. And still no one talks about the heat issue.

What makes you think there would be much more heat than an LED/LCD TV?
post #109 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

Oh, and the scanning didn't bother me at all, and except for the fact that I could see it on the screen of my digital camera, I never would have noticed it.

The part where if your eye was locked on the edge of the screen where the motion originated, the scanning was readily apparent would bother a lot of people. It bothered me.

Now, I want to be clear: This was a prototype. I suspect the effect occurred because of the scanning speed. But it was very apparent: If you were watching the left edge where the boat came in (a natural thing, it's where the boat started), the displays scanning would cause the image to "comb" together in a very visible manner. Once I moved my eyes back to the middle of the screen, I couldn't detect this any longer, but it's something they're going to have to fix before they can deliver this.

I do agree that absent the effect, the motion handling was gorgeous and I've already made clear my bias that they go for it and commercialize this technology.
post #110 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

What makes you think there would be much more heat than an LED/LCD TV?

My previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

And did I mention heat? Before anyone claim standing near it is not hot, that's not the point. It is the heat per square inch generated. That's why light bars are aluminum and not traditional PCB. And main cause of LED failure. So marketing material of 20 years LED lifespan is technically correct but not practical.
post #111 of 405
Spec, you didn't answer my question. What makes you think this will have any more heat than an LED/LCD?
post #112 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nytro View Post

Spec, you didn't answer my question. What makes you think this will have any more heat than an LED/LCD?

An LED LCD has many orders of magnitude fewer LEDs with more space between them than this. These are smaller in size but there are also 6 million compared to a few hundred.
post #113 of 405
Yes I thought it was obvious.

FWIW LG Innotek and SEMCO are major LED players, just for comparative competitiveness point of view
post #114 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

An LED LCD has many orders of magnitude fewer LEDs with more space between them than this. These are smaller in size but there are also 6 million compared to a few hundred.

The number of LEDs means nothing. It's the overall power (i.e. light) produced. Unless you think this TV will be 10,000 times brighter, the power (i.e. heat) produced will be similar.
post #115 of 405
LED is quantum product E=MC2. It is not classical incandescent. That's why it is hot per m2 even with low wattage.
post #116 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

LED is quantum product E=MC2. It is not classical incandescent. That's why it is hot per m2 even with low wattage.

Heat produced is based on current to the semiconductor and its efficiency. The current to each of these LEDs will be much less, unless these LEDs are MUCH less efficient than other LEDs.

According to specs this TV draws 70W, which is less than an LCD TV. At the same overall brightness that means these LEDs are likely MORE efficient.
post #117 of 405
I take your point on the 70W, if that is the real world power consumption to produce that amazing picture.
post #118 of 405
This is obviously all speculation until someone gets their hands on one. My point is I don't think heat will be a problem. If so, they'll mount them to a heat conductor and use fans, or/and liquid cooling like in modern CPU's and Motherboards.

The great thing I see about this technology is it's similar to computers way back in the day. Computers were too big, too hot and unreliable. Computers have come a long way...
post #119 of 405
You are not going to feel the heat on aggreagte via convection. The heat is on the substrate and connectors. People making LED lights or in the industry can tell you that's where the problem is.

AFAIR heat in the early x86 x88 Intel chips were not hot, unless you're talking about ENIAC. It gets hotter as they try to squeeze more transistors into same die size. That's the same thing we are seeing in CLED.
post #120 of 405
Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

You are not going to feel the heat on aggreagte via convection. The heat is on the substrate and connectors. People making LED lights or in the industry can tell you that's where the problem is.

I happen to be in a hobby of high powered LED flashlights. Heatsinks do make a world of difference. However, I see your point, the less connections the better.

Quote:


AFAIR heat in the early x86 x88 Intel chips were not hot, unless you're talking about ENIAC. It gets hotter as they try to squeeze more transistors into same die size. That's the same thing we are seeing in CLED.

I was referring to much older computers than the x86. lol

CPUs also get hotter as you increase the clock speed in order to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of it.
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