New Sony 3D Cam HDR-TD20VE

Leider ist auch der VAD Artikel wenig aussagekräftig, was Neuerungen angeht.

Ok, in englisch: also this VAD publication does not tell us something about major improvements. MAYBE we will see the manual white balance adjustment - but for sure not 1080 24p. So, with 1080 50i/60i we still will face major limitations in terms of the acquisition format....

The info is that this year's 3D Sony camcorder HDR-TD20 has

• Shorter focal length
• Smaller size

I never thought my TD10 (last year's model) was too large. Although it may resemble a miniature kitchen toaster, I love it and will likely keep it. Those new to 3D home recording have the advantage to start with a newer better one, or jump in and get the tried and proven TD10 at a closeout price, if there are any left.

This info and the photo below are from the following link from CNET at CES.

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33371_1-573...t-of-sonys-13/

Saw this today and at first glance I was disappointed as I was hoping for a higher end TD-10 but it seems Sony is smarter than that and is hoping to make the TD10 more convenient for the average consumer to shoot high quality 3D.

So what they did is make the TD10 smaller and made the connection to external devices like computer easier.

I did not get a chance to test it out but was told the TD-20V is basically a smaller TD10 plus it has a built in USB dongle that comes out of the hand strap. That replaces the USB adapter we use with the TD10. When I tried to turn it on the battery was near dead but I did get enough time to see that the monitor was basically a TD-10 quality and layout with slightly smaller size.



I stuck my TD 10 next to the TD20 for you all to see how they compare.

Also, the IA is just a bit smaller than the TD10 and it looks like the lens diameters are slightly smaller.

Hopefully, I'll be back to test the image stabilizer as this feature becomes more important the lighter and smaller the cam gets.

Availability is "in a few months." They will continue to ship TD10's until the release date of the TD20. (Personally, I think they have inventory to unload on the TD10 and will hold the release of the 20 for that to be exhausted. It you want a TD10, better get them while they last. MSRP is to be $1499.

If the cam performs as the TD10 ( except for IA limitations) then it would be a good pocket cam for me since my TD-10 is just a bit too fat for pocket comfort.

Looking forward to updates. Curious if this really is a "less is more" product or if compromises have been made that will leave the TD10 the superior camera.

Wow - Great comparison!

I'm looking at how Sony is positioning the TD10 vs the smaller and more consumer-friendly TD20V, other than a smaller IA, adding GPS geotagging and on-board USB connector (which was already implemented in last year's 2D cams like the 560V & 700V); one would have to look back to 2005 when Sony introduced the consumer HDR-HC1 HDV camcorder with the prosumer counterpart HVR-A1U, but the subsequent HC3, HC7, & HC9 cams didn't have a prosumer version. The HDR-TD10's prosumer counterpart is the HXR-NX3D1; the HDR-TD20V most likely would not have a prosumer version as prosumer cams tends to have a longer market lifecycle than consumer cams; we should be rest assured the TD10 is the basis for a prosumer version; although the TD20V's size is appealing, but having lugged around prosumer 3 chippers, the TD10 is quite compact enough for me.

The change is IA would flatten the objects even more than the current, lessening the 3D effect, so you're moving to toy value vs. true 3D value IMHO. Lens centers look to be about 1" apart.

Tony- I think you have an excellent analysis on this. Personally, I'm kind of excited about the TD20 for this reason: It will function very much like my TD10 so the rote memory to operate is less challenging. The TD20 is smaller and can be tossed in the pocket easier than the TD10. I know you said you don't mind the size of the TD10 but rather than having a TD20 obsolete the TD10 in my kit, I see it as more of a replacement for the Bloggie 3D. Although the Bloggie does carry easier than the TD20 in my pants pocket.

As for this issue of IA being smaller and flatter, that simply is not true when you use the camera with smaller IA for the range it was designed. The trouble I have concluded that most talented and knowledgeable consumer users is they want one does all camcorder. Coming from a professional background, I work with a different philosophy and that is to use the best tool for the job. The challenge for me is to have a range of IA's that give me good results for each project I want to shoot. In other words, I may plan to shoot a grandkids birthday party and the IA range of the TD10 and even the TD20 is perfect since the stage I'm shooting is no bigger than 10x15 ft and I'm there so the cam to subject is more likely 6 ft average distance.
When walking around town and wanting to shoot a scenery or a play on stage from the audience, a range of 40-50 Ft. the 3D effects will begin to flatten out with these narrow IA camcorders. Here the Panasonic Z10000 is probably your best option. But The TD20 certainly does a nice visual in 3D if you shoot it right. I just reviewed my 30 minute recording of Earth Wind and Fire shot yesterday and I am simply pleased as punch with the results I got from the audience with the TD10. I will post it next week when I get home. The difference in a Bloggie 3D at 3/4" and the TD 20 at about an inch and the TD10 at 1 1/3 inches is not that much when looking at the size of the stage and fartherest object flattening effect. More importantly, none of these camcorders will do justice when shooting large buildings or mountains. Here the use of ultra stereobase separate camcorders must be used. Fireworks, what I consider the most challenging of all 3D needs Hyperbase stereography. This is where the two cameras can't even be mounted on a single rail or bench but must be separated by hundred or more ft apart.

Bottom line is there is no way to get one does all when doing 3D stereobase video. So, either you build out a kit of different cams to satisfy your hobby desires or you realize the limitations of your choice in cameras.

Hey Don
do you have a lens or something stuck to the front of your TD10?

So will it shoot the same formats as the TD10, or will this one shoot 24p also? Perhaps a dumb question but I have high hopes

Went in first thing this morning and got some quality time with it. Went through all the menus. Basically the same as the TD10 on recording formats. Besides the GPS feature you also have a programmable user setting that can be custom assigned to the front button. Audio is the same with hot shoe for accessories. The LANC connection is there. HDMI is the same.

Performance- I gave the TD20 a good shaky run on the image stabilizer and it performed equal to the TD10. Sorry, 24p is only available in 2D, same as the TD10.

They moved the hot shoe more toward the middle which is better but I'd prefer it to the front. As you can see I added a shoe mount near the front for a self powered light.

jasm- That is a 77mm threaded ring I have fixed to my TD10's to mount filters. The shape of the TD20 is the same but smaller diameter so maybe I could mount a smaller ring, like 55mm or 62mm for that too.

One key feature the 10 was missing is 3D photography.

just discovered that it is still not activated....
Still Image Mode : 3D Still Image: Not available /
puzzling......

hopefully JVC will bring a successor and already has it implemented on its current model

3D stills is a very niche application, primarily geared to semi pros. If I need 3D stills I simply frame grab from 3D video. Easy enough to do. You'd think that it would be on the 3D bloggie but not even there it is implemented. I think the fuji is a good option if you need that but not sure of the disposition of that camera. I didnt see anything 3D on display from Fuji at CES. Consumers what prints from stills and as that is not easily done for stereography, consumers won't be interested.
However, Toshiba introduced a basic consumer 3D camcorder. It's smaller than the TD20 but nowhere near the PQ live on a monitor and it. No reps around today that I could ask about cost and availability.

Back OT- I spoke to another Sony Rep and he said the TD20 will now be sold at Best Buy when released which they could never do with the TD10. He said look for a TD30 next that is even smaller. Consumers market research has the camcorder becoming smaller and smaller as the most important consideration. In the prosumer market, my threaded ring and some other concepts are being considered. Those will only be available through professional camera suppliers like B&H and will be shown at NAB, not CES.

Don, thanks for the coverage at CES. I'm pouring over CES 2012 articles looking at the trends of 3D videography and find it pretty anemic this year, with the only big news being the Sony HDR-TD20V. Panasonic is still going the lens adapter route, now in its 2nd generation, they have eliminated the windowboxing, but it's still SBS. Panasonic did show off a dual lens Lumix that records 3D @ 1080i60 SBS; however their HDC-Z10000 seems promising, but is out of the consumer budget, and at this point is also their only AVCHD/3D (MVC) cam. Canon hasn't jumped into 3D yet. JVC didn't announce a successor to their GS-TD1 3D cam, instead focusing on QuadHD 4K. Toshiba's Z100 is nowhere in the same league as Sony and JVC and looks more to be a Bloggie in a traditional body. I'm glad to see Sony shrinking the TD10; USB charging is also a plus since the TD20V can charge off of any USB port. Also surprising that Sony doesn't have a dual lens 3D CyberShot point and shoot yet, and no successor this year to the 3D Bloggie (MHS-FS3). I'm wondering if Sony will introduce a competitor to Panasonic's Z10000 at NAB in four months.

I think that is not even great fo the pure bloody consumer segment. Yes size is an important point here - but the major feature of TD10, TD20, ... TD50 is the 3D effect. To reduce IO is the wrong way - but ok: maybe the bloody consumer do not care because for sure they do not know.

But I think it is hard to recommend the TD20 for somebody with a more professional approach - and event he TD10 with the strong limitation in manual adjustment for 3D was something that we were willing to accept for some time - until there are other solutions available.



That is the way it seems to go - Pana has done that with the Z10000 too, and seems to be successfull, at least to keep the price quite high and stable.

Wolfgang- I guess we're seeing an evolution now where consumer and pro products are diverging again. For a few years now they were coming together enabling many pros to make consumer products work in their jobs. But with products like the Toshiba coming on board, quality will once again suffer and size and price will trump professional serious photo features and quality.

BTW- I was glad to finally play with the Z10000 and it's bigger brothers. Nice rigs but all too large for the direction I'm headded. I did like the way the convergence roller worked but it was hard for me to use on that little screen. The Panasonic rep said they recommend using a minimum of 9" 3D LCD accessory monitor to use that control for accuracy. He showed me how to make the adjustments looking at the 9" screen or larger and not wearing glasses. Then put the glasses on to verify and check. This procedure is clearly an efp tool, not a run and gun eng tool. But, it sure was nice for setting up that perfect 3D control.
When you get some time, it would be nice for you to expound on your experience using the Panasonic roller convergence tool. I'm interested in how you can use it in the real world on the run and whether you can get what you thought you got.

Yes prosumer and consumer diverge again - that is a trend that was started by Canon and also implemented by Panasonic. Sony is a little bit behind that at the moment - to serve the market of 2000-4000 Euro/Dollars. Will be interested to see what Sony brings up when they arrive there too.

The TD20 - it will be interested to see the first tests. The TD10 has been nice and I ask myself if there are other improvements.

Do you really think that the Z10000 is too large? From the perspective of the professional units, it is a nice small camcorder. Especially with the mix mode of the Z10000, I do not have an issue to adjust the convergence. The internal monitor could be better, but since the mix mode works in 2D that is one possiblity.

An external 3D monitor would be fine, but I agree with you that it makes the take more complicated. Beside the fact that such a 3D field monitor is still expensive.

The roler convergence tool - one major disadvantage is that it takes a lot of time to adjust it. It is such a small wheel, and if you wish to adjust the convergence to a specific position you have to spend some time. Maybe it would have been better to have the convergence adjustment of one of the larger wheels. It can be used to adjust convergence, that are the good news - but I think to use such a small wheele is not the best idea.

Or what I tend to do is to do that in the postpro. But for sure the Z10000 is no run and jump tool - given its superior adjustment tools you have to spend the time to use that, or you stick to the automatic (what is fined too).

Don, that's the odd thing: the bloggie 3D DoeS support 3D stills.....
Still Image Size 4:3 : 2D: 5M (2,592 x 1,944) / 3D: 2M x2 (1920 x 1080 x 2)
I'm not a pro but this Sony cam has almost everything going for it and is on my wishlist, but man, would I be happy to quit the self fabricated DSLr 3D pics and just shoot it with this baby
I think it must be some kind of marketing thing to enable the bloggie, but disable it on the 10 & 20
however, I would be interested to know if you can really grab a still from the stream and convert it in a 3D .mpo

btw, reading your coverage of the CES with much interest, thanks!

hoogerd- After reading your post, I had to grab my bloggie 3D and try the snap shot in 3D. You're right! It does take a still in 3D. I never used that before and could have earlier today. Can't wait to evaluate the quality at home. Guess I'm guilty of not fully reading the manual!
This was my last day of shooting at The Valley of Fire using ultra stereo base with the twin TD10's. Going home tomorrow to begin all the editing. I recorded over 500 Gb of 3D this week!

Wolfgang- To appreciate where I'm coming from you must understand what my new projects are these days. I need small light weight and highly versatile equipment. This afternoon, I shot 5 different stereo base configurations since I was shooting in various canyons with mountains in the background. 20" maximum, 15", 9", 4" plus I shot some TD10 in 3D mode too. This kind of rig is slung on my backpack and hauled up some easy
rock climbs. But unless there is a clear advantage to a z10000 over what I now carry, I don't see the point. The same goes for Disney and large crowded events. Smaller is better.

The current (January) issue of Videomaker has quite a bit of 3D coverage. Included is a test of the TD10 and their conclusion that it was the best 3D camcorder in 2011.

My understanding would be, that for Canyon shootings or shootings of large events both the TD10, TD20 but also Z10000 are of limited use. Here you will have to use a sbs-rig, and that is not small really.

Actually, the way I designed my system, it is the same physical size as a z10000 with tripod. But with twin TD10's. I have many more shooting options. In a edition to SBS, I can shoot two camera perspectives and I can use the bench rail as a slide table for some nice tracking moves. I do not lose the 24p shooting frame rate which as I recall would have been the main reason to go with the Panasonic. While the physical dimensions of a single Z10000 is about what two TD10's are, the weight of a SBS is about double the Panasonic with tripod. That is due to the added dovetail quick mounts I added for the bench to speed my setup time. When I arrive at a shooting location I can set up my entire twin system from camera and tripod bag in under 2 minutes. Everything synced and the dovetail mounts have everything aligned.

As for canyon shooting it varies with the size. If the nearest object in the shot along the side walls are within 20 ft or so, the TD10 solo in 3D mode is a better, simpler choice. Usually, if it is borderline, I shoot it both ways and that is just a matter of flipping a switch and unplugging one TD 10 from the sync box.

While the TD20 would be even smaller and I doubt sacrifice the shooting quality that much over the TD10, adding it to my kit would make carrying a pocket 3D camcorder into places would be even easier. The Panasonic would go in the wrong direction for what I want to do.

I think the z10000's best advantage is shooting single camera of sporting events as the distances are somewhat longer and the IA is better suited than either of the Sony's or the JVC.

Anyway, got to run and catch my flight home.

I thought this was interesting, at CES they had a TD20V hiding in a fake TD10 case demonstrating the size difference.

This video comes from Sony's SGNL YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_X3QD27iAU#t=02m31s

I was less impressed with the size after I saw the this. When you have something that is bigger than a pocket, it really doesn't matter much that it's a half inch bigger around to me.

There is 24p only in 2D mode. 60i only mode for 3D. Same as TD10. I went through the menus to look and there was no way to select 24p in 3D mode.

Not something they were ragging on at the show. You're the first to mention it that I have see. Image quality on the 46" screen looked about the same as I see with the TD10.

My biggest concern with these little camcorders was the image stabilizer and it was equal to the TD10 when I tested with a good shaking side by side comparison.