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New Sony 3D Cam HDR-TD20VE - Page 2

post #31 of 104
Question: what do you expect by the increase in the number of pixel? There may be also some drawbacks - for example, if the processor size is still the same, the reduction in number of pixels decreases the pixel sice, what tend to decrease the lowlight behaviour. Resolution of pictures shoudl become better, stabilization could be improved, maybe also convergence range?

But that are some first ideas only. We still do not have any test of the TD20.
post #32 of 104
Thread Starter 
yes you are right if the same size chip is inside with double the pixels that means
that the a single pixel gets smaller and therefore the low light will be have more noise.

but on the other hand i like to see more resolution in 3d.
if low light gets "not to much worse" i am fine with the extra resolution.
remember the reason why i sale all my 3d cams are that there are not the
resolution there i like to see from a 3d cam.

lets first see if the 4 mil. pixels from the web page is right.
post #33 of 104
I think you cannot expect the same from a cheap TD10/20 compared with an EX1R or Canon HF100 or similar camcorders. If you look for this quality maybe it would be worthwile to combine 2 of such camcorders in a sbs-3d or mirror 3d rig.

Beside that my impression of both the TD10 but also the Z10000 is, that in a 3D picture noise tends to be a minor issue, at least compared with 2D. Our brains seems to filter noise in a 3D picture in a better way, compared with 2D (maybe an effect also by the lower light given in our actual HDTVs). At least I have here some lowlight videos, that are still fine in 3D (but not any more if you switch to 2D, because then you see the noise).
post #34 of 104
Thread Starter 
there are some 2d cams (small and cheap) that i can compare to the ex1r.
they show lets say 85-90% of the quality the ex1r have.

if this is the same with a 3d cam i go and buy one.

noise have often to do with light and lumen at the screen or display.
the brighter the picture gets the more noise you can see.
as 3d have max. around 20% the lumen compare in 2d you see less nosie there.
post #35 of 104
I think the 4mil pixels was added to make the smaller camera more versatile for higher res 2D pics as well as 1080i 3D movies. Thus a consumer can do 8.5x11 pics on their home printers. Or not...
post #36 of 104
Just wondering if anyone ordered the Sony HDR-TD20V camcorder. Unlike the debacle last year with late shipments on the TD10 due to the earthquake and also high demand, the TD20V was made available for sale this past Friday on its intended sale date and it's pretty much in stock everywhere.
post #37 of 104
Just received mine today. Waiting till I get my 3-D projector in a few weeks to view my 3-D videos. I found the display which is glasses-free 3-D impressive. This is my first 3-D cam, so nothing with which to compare this observation.
post #38 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by junglecat39 View Post

Just received mine today. Waiting till I get my 3-D projector in a few weeks to view my 3-D videos. I found the display which is glasses-free 3-D impressive. This is my first 3-D cam, so nothing with which to compare this observation.

Could you please put some raw samples recorded with the TD20 for us to analyze the quality of recorded images?
post #39 of 104
I can't believe that Sony still hasn't activated the photo mode in 3D in the TD20
post #40 of 104
Here's a YT video I made for the TD20
Sony HDR TD20V 3D camcorder Box Opening and Menu Screen Sneak Peek

Note: Great high resolution screen in 2D and 3D mode; Can't take pictures in 3D mode; No CD/DVD, software (Play Movie Home version - similar to PMB) is in the camcorder's built-in memory; No viewfinder
post #41 of 104
This is a reasonably detailed review (Slashcam) of the new model - the main improvement over the predecessor is in sharpness of image, which is visibly improved. No more manual controls than before; no 24P in 3D.

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=de&tl=en
post #42 of 104
Thread Starter 
i will get my td20v tomorrow if ups is on time.

as i not like the 50 hz flicker i have order the 60 hz us version.
post #43 of 104
What do you see as advantage for the 60 Hz model? Yes in 2D you have 1080 24p, but not in 3D?

For the slashcam test: unfortunately it is as expected. The reduction in IO reduces the 3D effect, and the changes to the TD10 are minor. For me the reduction of the IO is a no-go. Even slashcam - and they are no 3D specialists - come to the conclusion that one who is interested in such a camcorder could purchase a TD10, as long as it is available.
post #44 of 104
For me, physical size of the TD20 was the key selling point. I saw the 3D with that IA and it was not bad for the kind of shooting I would be doing with a small camera. But, thanks to the nice review from Mark, I went and bought the Panasonic 3D1 for a good pocket 3D camera. I also wanted a 3D still camera and the TD20 failed in that feature for me as well.
post #45 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

What do you see as advantage for the 60 Hz model? Yes in 2D you have 1080 24p, but not in 3D?

For the slashcam test: unfortunately it is as expected. The reduction in IO reduces the 3D effect, and the changes to the TD10 are minor. For me the reduction of the IO is a no-go. Even slashcam - and they are no 3D specialists - come to the conclusion that one who is interested in such a camcorder could purchase a TD10, as long as it is available.

i have explan this some time ago.
10 frame more have better motion AND 2x 60 hz not flickers with my
panasonic plasma 3d tv.
2x 50 flickers a lot but if you are not sensitive you may not see it.
but why i should by a version that have less good motion and show flicker at some displays when i can get for almost the same money the 2x 60 hz version?
every new 3d tv do 50 and 60 hz 3d.
post #46 of 104
Thank you for your ideas. I for my part have no issues with 50Hz on my Panasonic 3D HDTV, and I acquire my footage anyway as 1080 24p with the Z10K where movement resolution is fine due to higher motion blur set by the camcorder.

Don, the reduction in IO has an effect and that is what I do not like at all. For me (but that is an additional point), I will use the TD10 as second camcorder when doing 2-camcorder shooting with the Z10K. To maintain deepth continuity I am not sure if it would be a good idea to mix up an IO = 41 mm with an IO = 20 mm.
post #47 of 104
The TD10 I can pocket in my vest but the TD20 will be much easier. The Pan 3D1 can slip into my pants pocket just as easy as the Bloggie3D. Now I can carry it anywhere I go without the fat bulk of the TD10 and get "good enough" images in 3D.

When it comes to mixing IA, there is nothing wrong with the mixing in the same project but it is very important not to exceed the limits of the stage and to be sure all objects in the scene are properly converged to prevent eye strain. Most motion pictures using SBS and mirror systems will vary the IA for each scene optimally creating good depth regardless of how large or small the set. IMAX 3D cameras are the exception as they shoot for large format as the most important feature, not optimum 3D. IMAX 3D practice is one IA 65mm for all scenes. Some directors believe this is natural as it is the same IA as the IO of the average human adult. Working with variable IA is indeed much more difficult in editing and lots of shots ( my experience ) get tossed. The other thing that is difficult with wider IA is panning or zooming a scene. I have yet to figure out if this is even possible once the IA gets beyond 100mm. All my pan and zooms lose converged imaging and the correction is laborious to not possible. The best large stereo base shots so far are when the camera is locked down.
post #48 of 104
Thread Starter 
don do you see detail increase form the new 20 compare to the old one like
the Slashcam test say?

i not get my today as ups make a mistake.
hope to get it tomorrow.
post #49 of 104
I don't have a TD20. I only held one at CES show. Not easy to do an A/B comparison at a trade show so I was more interested in features. Sorry you didn't get your new toy.
post #50 of 104
Thread Starter 
according to the track info i will get it today.

a perfect timing as sony japan is here this afternoon with 5 people visit my cinema.
post #51 of 104
Thread Starter 
i got it yesterday but thanks to the visit from sony see here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21868633

post 726
i cant do much.

from a very short first look under not so good condition (resolution testpattern under low light condition only) i think the jvc (that i still own) have some advantages in horizontal resolution the new sony have the far better vertically resolution and better low light recording.

i record today some test seq. each 2 min. long with both cams.

1. test pattern under sunlight
2. real seq.under sunlight at different locations outside
3. in house under normaly light conditions.
4. sea water tank with much light

i hope i can take a look at this material tomorrow and compare it.
post #52 of 104
Thread Starter 
i had time yesterday to compare both the jvc and the new sony with my
panasonic 65" 3d plasma tv.

based on my measurments i did about horizontal resolution and
vertica resolution and 45° long time ago i have found this numbers.
i copy the older measurments inside if you like to read more about it here is the link to my old post where you can see how it was measured in details.
the sony is the 10 model.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21327232

horizontal resolution:
jvc 780 lines
sony 590 lines
"new sony20 660 lines"
z10k 590 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 960 lines

vertical resolution:
jvc 790 lines
sony 620 lines
"new sony20 740 lines"
z10k 790 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 840 lines

resolution lines 45°
jvc 830 lines
sony 690 lines
"new sony20 800 lines"
z 10k 690 lines
sony ex1r 2d cam 930 lines

as you can see the new sony 20 have more lines visible
compare to the old 10 model.

also it show all this with not the huge enhancement the jvc did.

in high freq. the jvc have all this bugs inside that are comes from strong enhancement like ringing stair steps and so on......

the sony have a very good very naturally picture till the end what the cam can record with not any! enhancement.
in low light the sony outperform the jvc by far.

all in all a big step up in picture quality so i may start to record in 3d again.
the new sony 20 is nice small and can record a better picture than the older
10 model.
the only disatvantage is the smaller distance between both optics as this
may have some negative impact.
to my surprise i cant see much when i compare it with the jvc that have a much bigger distance so for me not a big issue.
its also nice that you now can record very close things in 3d where the 3d effect is very good.
post #53 of 104
I think your results are great - good to see that there has been some improvement, I see that also in the measures from slashcam that there is some improvement from the TD10 to the TD20.

I am not so sure about the figures between the TD20 and the Z10K. For example the horizontal resolution, where published figures shows that the Z10K seems to have a better resolution.

TD20:


Z10K:



TD20:



Z10K:


So I know that the measurement of such things is a tricky story - but how sure are you about your figures?
post #54 of 104
Thread Starter 
we did some tests some months back between some 3d cams at a certificate test lab and found some results from slashcam must be wrong.
post #55 of 104
I've tested several of my camcorders on my balcony and found that my Z10000 is noticeably sharper than my JVC GS-TD1. W. Mayer, was your Z10000's iris near the middle of it's range? Perhaps you have been seeing a softer response due to it's lens being close to wide open. It's lens is bigger and that might be why your seeing it softer than your Sony.

If you guys want to see sharp, check out my JVC GY-HMQ10 sample from the JVC 4K thread. It's the sharpest camera I've ever owned! Too bad it's missing a dimension
post #56 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

I've tested several of my camcorders on my balcony and found that my Z10000 is noticeably sharper than my JVC GS-TD1. W. Mayer, was your Z10000's iris near the middle of it's range? Perhaps you have been seeing a softer response due to it's lens being close to wide open. It's lens is bigger and that might be why your seeing it softer than your Sony.

If you guys want to see sharp, check out my JVC GY-HMQ10 sample from the JVC 4K thread. It's the sharpest camera I've ever owned! Too bad it's missing a dimension

i test it with with test pattern in over 1 meter size at daylight and low light and inbetween.
yes you are right depends on the iris position there was a variation
in resolution visible but as i record most at very much light i
have my focus a bit under this condition.
i think what you bring up here can may be a explanation about the slashcam
results.
post #57 of 104
Thread Starter 
sad i found out that this new sony also suffer from a focus difference between left and right picture.

very often right picture is less sharp than the left one.
you can see this easy when you block alternate one of the left and right side from the
3d shutterglasses.

seems all manufacturer of 3d cams have more or less the same problem.
post #58 of 104
Thread Starter 
i have check the focus problem again with the use of manual focus.

there i can see that right focus is always a bit different to the left one so its not
a autofocus problem is a gerneral problem as both r and left optic have different fix focus points.
post #59 of 104
The Panasonic Z10000 has a menu option for adjusting the right lens vertical alignment, iris, and focus with respect to the left lens.

I haven't had to make any of these adjustments.
post #60 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwhite601 View Post

The Panasonic Z10000 has a menu option for adjusting the right lens vertical alignment, iris, and focus with respect to the left lens.

I haven't had to make any of these adjustments.

thats a very nice tool for those that need such adjustments.
i hope the new sony td 20 have such a adjustment may in the
factory menue.
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