New Sony 3D Cam HDR-TD20VE - Page 3

I just found out that the TD20 does not accept the aftermarket FV100 3900 Amh battery I purchased for the XR550. It seems to work fine for about 45 seconds, but then an error message pops up - "For use with compatible battery only" - then shuts off automatically.

I never used to purchase Sony products due to their MMC (duo, etc..) proprietary slots. I started to let my guard down since they incorporated SD card lot into their products. That guard is going back up today when I found out that they put something in the TD20 to detect the aftermarket battery and purposefully not accept it to compel me to purchase their Sony battery.

I'm thinking about returning this TD20.

Is that like returning a car because some tires you bought for another car won't fit?


FYI- I bought a Sony NPFV 100 and it didn't work either. I have wondered if the little chargers just can't charge those 100 series. The fv70 charge fine and run my camcorder for 4-5 hours.

But, thanks for the reminder. I wanted to asks some Sony reps that question on the 100's not working when I get back to Sony booth as NAB tomorrow.

Really? Interesting. The odd thing is that the FV100 works great in the Sony XR550V, so it's not the battery or charger. I get about 5 hours when it's fully charged.

Good to know that Sony is not forcing me to use their proprietary product. I don't mind supporting them if they just make good products and not monopolize the market like some computers with fruit logos on them

The absence of SD slots was the reason why I stayed away from Sony products for years.

Thanks for the info Don. Please share what you find out at NAB

I couldn't find the senior product engineer for the camcorders today but did speak to one of the more experienced techs there with the 3D cameras and he was unaware of the problem but promised to get the report to the engineer.

FYI- on my TD10 the NP FV 70 last for about 5 hours in 2D mode and about 2.5 hours in 3D. In the past most of us early users of the TD 10 agreed that the 70's were the optimum battery to use for size and capacity. Better to carry a spare 70 than to use one 100, if they even worked.

Hello fellow users.

I am in a bit of a dilemma - From what I can read, it seems that the TD10 and TD20 are quite similar, only the TD20 is smaller, and with geotagging.

I would like to know your impressions and differences, now that some of you have had the opportunity to try out both for a month or longer.

The reason is, that I can either buy the
TD10 for DKK 5999 = USD 1062 (a quite good offer (half price) compared to the previous standard price of DKK 11999 = USD 2125) from the local Sony store
TD20 for EUR 1400 = USD 1844 = DKK 10416 (from a European store - the lowest price i could find in Europe)

Is the price difference justification enough to go with the new TD20 compared to the old TD10, with that half/double price in mind, in your opinion ?

Thank you for your consideration.

Best regards CyberstormXIII

I have purchased a second TD10 yesterday, and given the lower price to my opinion that is still the better option. I did that because I need a second TD10 for my upcoming sbs-3D rig, so that is a specific situation. However, beside that I like the larger IO of the TD10.

How about the resolution differences between TD10 and TD20?
Are they significant enough to sacrificing IO vs. resolution?

I am looking in to getting a new camcorder, still not convinced what is better for family videos: high resolution, good low light performance, better optics vs. Sony 3D TD series camcorder and sacrificing above?

Since TD10/TD20 has those right side focus issues, not big enough IO, I got to the idea that might be getting simple Fuji 3D camera and adding 3D slides at the end of 2D movie, getting kind of mixture of high res video and 3D feeling.

If you are now thinking beyond the TD10/20, why not consider the Panasonic 3D1, which takes excellent 3D video and 3D stills (the W3 does not take satisfactory video). The IO is as large as the TD10, larger than the TD20. There are no oof, aligment issues. See the 3D1 therad, which has 3D example videos and stills. It is far cheaper than either Sony TD's, and is only litte ore than the W3.

markr041, thanks for your advice.
I was looking to have a higher resolution video than Panasonic 3D1 makes.
Sorry that I was not clear. I am deciding which path to chose and camcorder to get, what would make the most sense.

Option A: Getting Sony HDR-CX700/760 or CX560, shooting family video in 2D, having hi res video and adding 3D slides (made by cheap 3D camera), thus making nice few clips package of the memorable family events. Kind of pseudo 3D.

Option B: Getting Sony TD10/20, making 3D movies, but in this case the video quality suffers as per earlier mentioned, plus due to limited amount of manual control and etc.

If you want no-sacrifice 3D, then you want the Panasonic Z10000. It has full manual control - as much as any pro camera - but takes standard 2D and 3D (same type as the Sony, but much quality). Not surprsingly, if you want the best of 3D, you have to pay, in money and size

Especially for 3D, resolution is less important since our brain is able to fusion the two videos to come up with a better impression. The difference between the resolution - well I would not care really, since it is not soo huge.

But what is significant is the change in the IO. The move from 31 mm to something about 20 is a change, well with 2 effect:

- you can shoot with a lower distance to the object with the TD20 compard to the TD10. Estimations are that the lowest distance with the TD10 should be conservative 1000mm, maybe goes down to 700mm, if the background is not far away even lower. With the TD10 you can go down to 500mm or 600mm.

- but on the other hand, you will loose 3d depth in the range of 5-20m with the TD20, due to the lower IO.

So, what you prefer will depend on your needs. I prefer the larger stereobase.

The Z10K is a better choice if you wish to adjust all parameters really, but as it was said - it is more expensive. With the Z10K you have also a 3D macro mode. Well, up to you what you take.

Appreciated for your comments.
I agree, Panasonic Z10000 is an impressive kind of professional piece, but for the family trips and home usage is a bit too high in price and too big/bulky.

The rationale behind using only 2D higher resolution/capabilities camcorder (Sony HDR-CX700/760 or CX560 type) instead of 3D (TD10/20 type) is this:

During family trips many shootings will be more than 20 feet in distance, almost no 3D effect with Sony TD10/20 anyway.
During inside house low light in room conditions, also outside low light shootings 2D higher quality camcorder will be able to make much better picture quality vs. 3D camcorder.

Using higher performance 2D camcorder and also simple 3D Fuji type of camera possible to make a family video clips with a good presentation and perception of 3D as well.

At low light and bigger distance (more than 20m) 3D pictures placed in the slide show would have better stereo perception vs. taken TD10/20 camcorder, since flash light available, IO is bigger. The 2D clips would be higher quality as well.

To summarize my dilemma, what is better:
A. Get TD10/20 and have limited 3D perception during family travel (at long distances to objects) and low light indoors conditions. What some times are the major opportunities to shoot family videos.
B. Get higher quality 2D ONLY camcorder, enjoy higher resolution videos at lower light, adding 3D slides clips (made by 3D Fuji) to the movie. This combination can make a good perception of video overall. In other words 2D camcorder instead of 3D.

I think this could be applicable for more family home/vacation style users.
Over all it is all about the final perception watching movies.

I am very sure I could be wrong here, appreciate for your comments.

If you want 3D video, you need a 3D camcorder. Tacking on 3D stills to a 2D video will be disconcerting, and is not a substitute for 3D video.

The low-light perfromance of the Sony TD10 is very good - 3D does not affect low-light performance. You can take effective 3D video on vacation, I do it all the time. I have posed many 3D "vacation" videos to youtube, using different 3D cameras. A good video is not one where all objects are more than 20 feet away in every shot anyway.

If you are interested in 3D video, you have to learn how to shoot effective 3D video, but even if you pay no attention to issues like parallax and windows violations, the added dimension of 3D really enhances even ordinary, casual videos, which it sounds like you have in mind. The Sony TD10 is plenty sharp enough in 3D mode; as has been said, the extra dimension more than makes up for any theoretical resolution issues.

You make a persuasive argument for not getting a 3D camera. However, those 3D shots are really hard to beat when you can get some good ones. I have taken several family trips with my TD10 and do not regret the purchase.

Marty

For family "vacation" style video, you just can't beat the TD10 except maybe the TD20 as it is even smaller. Frankly, the lower IA of the TD20 vs. the TD10 is not a big enough difference vs the smaller compact size that is just plain more convenient for a family man to be using. In addition it offers some nice home movie tools that pros don't care about such as the GPS which few seem to consider in this forum. When I get tasked with the "job" of shooting our family video, my stage is generally the size of a small room so the TD20 is more than adequate for that. If you want to worry about the TD20 getting better pictures, buy a good tripod or at least a monopod, a good multi LED light and spend time learning your camera. If you want still better, learn to edit and tell stories.
For a more convenient 3D camera I really like my Panasonic 3D1. I strap on the case for it like I do my smart phone.

Discussion about a camcorder like the Panasonic Z10k is more for those who want to shoot serious professional and amateur 3D. Family and friends won't see the difference in image quality of the 3 chip pro camera and your friends will no longer be your friends if you force them to view bad camera work, regardless of how sharp the Z10k looks. But I think you already understand that.

I just got back from a 2 week trip to shoot 3D video of several state and national Parks. The mission was to shoot these projects. I carried 4 3D cameras, each with their own unique purpose. This was a serious amateur video expedition as I was not being paid or hired. Next week I will be going with the family to Disney World. I plan to carry two cameras. The TD10 and the Panasonic 3D1. The mission is a vacation and any video will be a bonus to the trip. This is how all family video should be done. Don't ruin everyone's fun on vacation with turning it into a photographic expedition. The best camera for this fun trip will be the 3D1 because it is small and does quality work. Its stabilizer is limited and it has no zoom while recording, cant view in 3D and the view screen can't be angled, but it shoots 3D stills and video short clips and all 3D can be viewed later in 2D or 3D. It can grab a shot quickly!

Final comment on low light level- While it is true that some camcorders can do low light a little better than others, shooting 3D in low light is a big mistake as low light can completely ruin the 3D and put a strain on the viewers as much as double images caused by shooting out of range. If you don't have adequate light the shot will be a waste of time in 3D. But, if I have plenty of storage and battery I take the shot anyway and evaluate in post. I keep about 2% of these so its worth the try. Many times these are good for 2D keepers only.

Thanks for your comments, well, it is getting more attractive.
It looks like that Panasonic 3D1 can be a good instrument for the trips and family videos.

The higher resolution 2D camcorder for more specialized shootings can be as an additional option. I am thinking (still very raw estimated idea) for pulling a trigger on Panas 3D1 and after for Sony Sony HDR-CX560, price wise tottaling almost same as single TD20 device.
Could be an attractive combination for all family ocasions.

How 3D1 with 1920 x 1080 SBS 60i at 18 Mbps vertical-horizontal resolution wise compares to Sony TD10/20 at 28Mpps with MVC codec.
Is resolution loss on 3D1 is significant, since half resolution is lost due to SBS and much lower bitrate (higher compression) ?

Few more things to clarify and I may need to dig in to "Upgrade from the 3D Bloggie: the Panasonic 3D1" thread.

How 3D1 with 1920 x 1080 SBS 60i at 18 Mbps vertical-horizontal resolution wise compares to Sony TD10/20 at 28Mpps with MVC codec.
Is resolution loss on 3D1 is significant, since half resolution is lost due to SBS and much lower bitrate (higher compression) ?"

Let's do the math: the Sony is trying to provide 2x1920x108060i resolution with 28Mbps. The 3D1 is providing 1x1920x108060i resolution at 18Mbps. That's half of what the Sony is trying to resolve but with *more* than half of its bit rate. Put another way, the Sony is trying to resolve twice the number of pixels as the Panasonic with significantly less than twice the bitrate. So, the Sony may have more compression artifacts than the Panasonic, but more resolution.

But, I say may because the neat aspect of MVC, used by the Sony, is that it uses one view to resolve the other view by only coding the difference in views, so it achieves extra efficiency in coding compared to resolving two independent streams at once.

markr041, thanks. Well, that gives at least +1 towards TD10/20.
On the other hand 3D1 gets +1 because it can make stills, with the flash support.
3D stills can be extracted from Sony MVC stream but this is not straight forward and no flash support “to take” them.
Big big -1 for TD10/20 for this specific MVC format, Sony Vegas 11 can not process this without losses. Only possible watch video directly from camcorder. Of course it will supported later, but at this moment no way easily share 3D full res. video.

On the other hand - something fishy going on with 3D1 as Don Landis just posted on “Upgrade from the 3D Bloggie: the Panasonic 3D1”.

Mark,
I don't know the technicality of the MVC codec, but are you saying that the Sony records 14Mbps per stream (1920x1080i60), therefore having more compression artifacts?

14 Mbps is just the average per stream. But as I said, the trick of MVC is that it uses the information in one stream to code the second - it only has to record the difference, so one cannot compare exactly. But yes, 18 Mbps for one stream in the 3D1, and 28 Mbps for two same-size streams in the Sony, a higher bitrate per stream for the Panasonic (less compression).

"3D stills can be extracted from Sony MVC stream but this is not straight forward and no flash support to take them."

The "stills" will be terrible: First they will be 1920x1080. Second, they will be from interleaved frames, not progressive. And third, they will not be in any standard 3D format.

The 3D stills of the 3D1 are 3,264 x 2,448 pixels (8M). They are MPO's, read by any 3D device (TV) or 3D software.

I suggest that you actually view the 3D videos that I have posted - there are lots of them. Please rely less on what people say and on specs now. If you get easily scared off, note the posts on the Sony about the lack of focus of one lens. Believe me, people will be wowed by the videos from either camera on any screen.

Just forget all this spec stuff now and look at the output the cameras produce.

I have posted the same question on the 3D1 thread.
Would be easier to evaluate the real resolution differences between 3D1 and TD20 by simply filming EIA 1956 test pattern (can be found/printed from web).

No, see my reply. Why don't you get raw 3D clips to view on your devices? The issue is how 3D videos look on your viewing media, not how flat test charts look in 2D, if you think that Youtube at 1080p is not good enough for you to assess video quality in 3D.

Can you create 3D blu-Rays with the TD-20?

The TD20 records in 1080 60i (in the NTSC area) and 1080 50i (in the PAL area). You have to recode that either to 1080 24p or to 720 50p/60p - what can be done with Vegas if you wish to create 3D Blu-rays with profile 5.

You can create AVCHD-BDs with tools like the PMB if you like - that can be done with 1080 50i/60i too.

Thanks for the info. Has anyone tried creating 3D Blu-Rays with a Mac and the TD20? I have a Blu-Ray burner for my Mac but if I have no way to create 3D Blu-Rays then it's basically as show stopper.

There have been success using intel based macs to load Vegas Pro using boot camp and windows 7 64 bit.

That's an obvious choice but I was looking for something OSX based.