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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 107  

post #3181 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

How exactly is this going to kill the echo?

Right, if for no other reason than that the Xbox 720 is more than a year away...
post #3182 of 7721
And probably won't support WMC extender app anymore.
post #3183 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

No one has mentioned this possibly huge news?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57551679-75/xbox-720-to-offer-kinect-2.0-and-blu-ray-drive-says-xbox-world/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
Wouldn't this effectively kill Ceton's Q and Echo?

It's not news, it's just a rumor. Without details on that "av port" for watching/recording TV, there's really no useful information there. However, it would explain why MS has effectively abandoned WMC. I'm also skeptical of having 16 effective cores - I'm unaware of anyone producing quad-threaded CPU cores. So, I take all of this information with a grain of salt.
post #3184 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

No one has mentioned this possibly huge news?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57551679-75/xbox-720-to-offer-kinect-2.0-and-blu-ray-drive-says-xbox-world/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
Wouldn't this effectively kill Ceton's Q and Echo?
Details such as "an input and output for watching and recording TV shows" are just a bit too vague to know exactly what they're up to.
post #3185 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

No one has mentioned this possibly huge news?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57551679-75/xbox-720-to-offer-kinect-2.0-and-blu-ray-drive-says-xbox-world/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
Wouldn't this effectively kill Ceton's Q and Echo?
Nothing in that reported rumor is anything new that hasn't already been rumored for half a year or longer. At the earliest you are looking at next November for release. This won't kill the Echo and the Q is basically already dead so no big worries.
post #3186 of 7721
What does "an input and output for watching and recording TV shows" even mean? is the input Coax? HDMI? What's the output? Does it have a CableCARD tuner slot? Can the output be connected to other TV's throughout the house? This is so vague of a statement that it basically means nothing to me.
post #3187 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

No one has mentioned this possibly huge news?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57551679-75/xbox-720-to-offer-kinect-2.0-and-blu-ray-drive-says-xbox-world/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
Wouldn't this effectively kill Ceton's Q and Echo?

Unless the 720 is going to play Blu-Ray and DVD rips with menus I don't see how it will be offering anything the Echo doesn't already, but it will cost 4x as much.
Edited by ncarty97 - 11/21/12 at 8:10am
post #3188 of 7721
I seriously doubt the 720 will have a Cablecard slot (and certification) so I can't see how this would do anything to hurt the Q (much less the Echo). If by 'TV recording' they mean OTA or some random IP stream recording capability, who cares. And I don't think it will work with an InfiniTV USB tuner unless Ceton is holding out on us.
post #3189 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I seriously doubt the 720 will have a Cablecard slot (and certification) so I can't see how this would do anything to hurt the Q (much less the Echo). If by 'TV recording' they mean OTA or some random IP stream recording capability, who cares. And I don't think it will work with an InfiniTV USB tuner unless Ceton is holding out on us.

isn't the 360 somewhat certified? It does FIOS TV today.
post #3190 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

isn't the 360 somewhat certified? It does FIOS TV today.

The Xbox supports an OpenCable-approved DRM scheme (playready), but it isn't a device that requires any sort of OCUR certification.
post #3191 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

isn't the 360 somewhat certified? It does FIOS TV today.
No, it gets FIOS TV content via the internet connection which has absolutely nothing to do with CableCard or Cable Labs certification.
post #3192 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

No, it gets FIOS TV content via the internet connection which has absolutely nothing to do with CableCard or Cable Labs certification.

Exactly. Just like the Xfinity app. Providers don't have an issue with a closed system like the Xbox 360 which allows full protection of their content where they can guaranty a profit for both Microsoft and it's partners only . I think it is obvious that Microsoft is putting all their effort into the Xbox platform to do it all including IPTV and wants to be the dominate player to rake in the huge rewards. I think this is the big reason they are abandoning WMC. The Echo and the Xbox are vastly different with the Echo being designed from the ground up as an Extender while the Xbox is a gaming box that has Extender software. I highly doubt Extender software will be a part of the 720.

I am still not sure about the Ceton Q. Ceton could still release the device as is next year with Win7 if the support will be their for device lifespan. A Ceton system with the Q and Echo could sure solve a lot of technical support issues with poorly configured pcs.

I happen to see this posted on Ceton's facebook page.
Quote:
Ceton Corporation It's as we feared. Windows Embedded 8 will not have Windows Media Center.

Edited by Haba - 11/20/12 at 9:25pm
post #3193 of 7721
I still don't understand what the big deal was with releasing the Q using 7MC Embedded. It's not like it won't be supported for the life of the product.

Yeah I know, MS is moving in a different direction, doesn't care about WMC, yada yada yada. But the product is there today and unless MS decides NOT to sell Win7 Embedded licenses, it's a viable solution for the Q.

But I think they should go with Linux even if that means dicking around with CableLabs again - Tivo runs on Linux along with other embedded media players, so it's not like it's an unknown. The cost and dev time could be an issue though.
post #3194 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I still don't understand what the big deal was with releasing the Q using 7MC Embedded. It's not like it won't be supported for the life of the product.
Yeah I know, MS is moving in a different direction, doesn't care about WMC, yada yada yada. But the product is there today and unless MS decides NOT to sell Win7 Embedded licenses, it's a viable solution for the Q.
But I think they should go with Linux even if that means dicking around with CableLabs again - Tivo runs on Linux along with other embedded media players, so it's not like it's an unknown. The cost and dev time could be an issue though.

It's not a question of MS offering support for the OS, it's a question of licensing. Ceton couldn't be sure MS would continue to license the OS for the duration of time that the Q was expected to be on the market, meaning they could suddenly no longer be able to sell the Q. It's poor planning to base your product on something with a significant unknown like that. If Microsoft stopped licensing it a year from now, there's no way to know if 8 Embedded would have Media Center available. And that's why the Q was shelved - Microsoft is not being open about their licensing plans for this.

I do agree that a Linux-based solution is the way to go, but it's a significant amount of development work. Given the issues they've had, I can't see them announcing anything like that unless/until it is much, much closer to being done.
post #3195 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haba View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

No, it gets FIOS TV content via the internet connection which has absolutely nothing to do with CableCard or Cable Labs certification.

Exactly. Just like the Xfinity app. Providers don't have an issue with a closed system like the Xbox 360 which allows full protection of their content where they can guaranty a profit for both Microsoft and it's partners only . I think it is obvious that Microsoft is putting all their effort into the Xbox platform to do it all including IPTV and wants to be the dominate player to rake in the huge rewards. I think this is the big reason they are abandoning WMC. The Echo and the Xbox are vastly different with the Echo being designed from the ground up as an Extender while the Xbox is a gaming box that has Extender software. I highly doubt Extender software will be a part of the 720.

I am still not sure about the Ceton Q. Ceton could still release the device as is next year with Win7 if the support will be their for device lifespan. A Ceton system with the Q and Echo could sure solve a lot of technical support issues with poorly configured pcs.

I happen to see this posted on Ceton's facebook page.
Quote:
Ceton Corporation It's as we feared. Windows Embedded 8 will not have Windows Media Center.

So you think that $35-$60 per annum is "guaranty a profit for both Microsoft and it's partners only"? I would highly doubt it!. The cost of live cant be the only reason.
post #3196 of 7721
post #3197 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haba View Post

Exactly. Just like the Xfinity app. Providers don't have an issue with a closed system like the Xbox 360 which allows full protection of their content where they can guaranty a profit for both Microsoft and it's partners only . I think it is obvious that Microsoft is putting all their effort into the Xbox platform to do it all including IPTV and wants to be the dominate player to rake in the huge rewards. I think this is the big reason they are abandoning WMC. The Echo and the Xbox are vastly different with the Echo being designed from the ground up as an Extender while the Xbox is a gaming box that has Extender software. I highly doubt Extender software will be a part of the 720.
I am still not sure about the Ceton Q. Ceton could still release the device as is next year with Win7 if the support will be their for device lifespan. A Ceton system with the Q and Echo could sure solve a lot of technical support issues with poorly configured pcs.
I happen to see this posted on Ceton's facebook page.

I don't think there are huge profits for Microsoft selling XBOX, infact, they have been selling it at a loss, for a long time. They were making their money back in games, and XBOX Live. But, if millions of people buy XBOXes to use as cable boxes and DVRs, but don't buy games, nor subscribe to XBOX Live, then Microsoft will lose more money making these XBOX and selling them at a loss.

The wholesale price of the current XBOX to a high volume distributor is about $80-$100 per XBOX depending on the model. I would estimate that it costs Microsoft about $80 to $100 to produce one, leaving them with no profit. I.e. they break even.

They would have to sell the bare bones XBOX 720 for over $400 to make money on it, which means retail prices could be 30% more. There is no way in hell am I buying an XBOX for $520 to use as a cable box, especially if I need 5 of them.

We are beyouching here that Ceton Echo is $170, would someone pay $520 or $400, or even $300 for a single Cable box/DVR?
post #3198 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

The wholesale price of the current XBOX to a high volume distributor is about $80-$100 per XBOX depending on the model. I would estimate that it costs Microsoft about $80 to $100 to produce one, leaving them with no profit. I.e. they break even.

Not true at all. Retailers and distributors are not making a 100% profit selling Xbox's. MS sells them to these outlets at close to what you pay at retail. If anything there is a 10% or less markup. The profit for retailers is the accessories and games.
post #3199 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by caeguy View Post

This news looks more interesting..
http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/21/3674802/xbox-tv-set-top-box-casual-gaming-streaming-2013

So, my initial reaction on this was that this spelled the end of WMC/Echo/Q, but after thinking about it further, it's possible that WMC will become nothing more than the PC-side software that enables CableCard streams for the media XBOX. A purely Internet-based media platform just won't work as a DVR/Cablebox replacement due to lack of content and transfer caps, but allowing it to connect to a PC running WMC with a CableCard tuner would make a ton of sense.

The 800-lb gorilla in the room that nobody really talks about is Google's fiber Internet/TV platform currently being rolled out in Kansas City. Rumor has it that the remnants of Sage are a big part of the software that will be running on the set-top DVR boxes that Google is deploying there. If that really takes off, it's not impossible to see those boxes being sold separately, direct to consumers. I'm sure the possibility of that is something that greatly concerns Microsoft - a solid DVR with Android gaming/app capability and Sage-quality home media playback could be a serious challenge to anyone hoping to dominant home entertainment. This media-oriented XBOX could be Microsoft's play to combat Google in that arena. Or maybe it's just their effort to blunt the AppleTV efforts.
post #3200 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

I don't think there are huge profits for Microsoft selling XBOX, infact, they have been selling it at a loss, for a long time. They were making their money back in games, and XBOX Live. But, if millions of people buy XBOXes to use as cable boxes and DVRs, but don't buy games, nor subscribe to XBOX Live, then Microsoft will lose more money making these XBOX and selling them at a loss.
The wholesale price of the current XBOX to a high volume distributor is about $80-$100 per XBOX depending on the model. I would estimate that it costs Microsoft about $80 to $100 to produce one, leaving them with no profit. I.e. they break even.
They would have to sell the bare bones XBOX 720 for over $400 to make money on it, which means retail prices could be 30% more. There is no way in hell am I buying an XBOX for $520 to use as a cable box, especially if I need 5 of them.
We are beyouching here that Ceton Echo is $170, would someone pay $520 or $400, or even $300 for a single Cable box/DVR?

Where are you getting your info that the wholesale price is $80-$100? I worked for Game Crazy (back when they existed) and consoles were a 3% margin business and that was dictated by Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo. While the big 3 make their money on the games we made our money on used games/hardware.
post #3201 of 7721
Maybe..fun to speculate .

I'd like to see the Xbox STB include WMC extender capabilities. That would be something.
post #3202 of 7721
I asked this on TGB but haven't gotten very far. Assuming DTS passthrough gets added to the Echo, are there any TVs that can decode DTS passed in via HDMI and output the decoded (stereo) audio through the analog outputs of the TV? I assume most can already do this with a Dolby Digital signal?
post #3203 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

So you think that $35-$60 per annum is "guaranty a profit for both Microsoft and it's partners only"? I would highly doubt it!. The cost of live cant be the only reason.

You may have not used the Xfinity app before but beyond a basic streaming app for Comcast subscribers, you can also order movies on demand, Streampix premium streaming and watch some live t.v. Some of these services are free and some are not. Since Microsoft controls every aspect of the Xbox, I am quite certain that they are getting a percentage of every premium item ordered through the Xfinity app on the Xbox. Comcast is just getting started on what they are offering through this app. When you look at all the software and services being offered and used on the Xbox and how Microsoft profits from these you will see why they are making so much money off the Xbox. The profit is not in the console, they sell those as cheap as they can to get them in your living room, it's everything else. Microsoft has also turned to this closed system on Win8RT where you must buy all the apps through the Microsoft store where they make a hefty profit on every app sold. Apple has been doing this for years. I am afraid down the road, Microsoft is going to force this down our throats on all Windows products. I have been around since the early days of MS-DOS but if Microsoft goes this route, after Win7 I am going to cross over to Linux for good
post #3204 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by crbaldwin View Post

I asked this on TGB but haven't gotten very far. Assuming DTS passthrough gets added to the Echo, are there any TVs that can decode DTS passed in via HDMI and output the decoded (stereo) audio through the analog outputs of the TV? I assume most can already do this with a Dolby Digital signal?

No, 99.999% tvs accept nothing but 2-ch pcm via hdmi. Pass through is only useful for you connect Echo to an AVR.
post #3205 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

No, 99.999% tvs accept nothing but 2-ch pcm via hdmi. Pass through is only useful for you connect Echo to an AVR.

Actually, Tv's which support ARC usually support some kind of "Surround Sound" , as that also helps support there apps. Like Netflix which, in most case supports 5.1.
post #3206 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Actually, Tv's which support ARC usually support some kind of "Surround Sound" , as that also helps support there apps. Like Netflix which, in most case supports 5.1.

Are you talking about a synthesized surround sound through the stereo speakers on the TV? Or something else?

But agree with Foxbat in regards to passthrough really only being useful when using an AVR.
post #3207 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgrinch View Post

Are you talking about a synthesized surround sound through the stereo speakers on the TV? Or something else?
But agree with Foxbat in regards to passthrough really only being useful when using an AVR.

Totally agree that passthrough is only usefull with an AVR. Anything but stereo needds an AVR.
I was referenceing ARC, so an AVR would have to be used.

I was just pointing out that alot of tv's these days support TOS out and ARC, both need surround sound to be of any use.
post #3208 of 7721
That's only for output from TV. Nothing to do with hdmi inputs of the TV. 100% of them can internally handle DD 5,1 for OTA programming but non of them (well except for certain Visio that may or maynot be sold) will accept DD 5.1 input. Their EDID will always say pcm 2.0 only. even if you can force DD 5.1 from certain devices, they will not decode.
post #3209 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

That's only for output from TV. Nothing to do with hdmi inputs of the TV. 100% of them can internally handle DD 5,1 for OTA programming but non of them (well except for certain Visio that may or maynot be sold) will accept DD 5.1 input. Their EDID will always say pcm 2.0 only. even if you can force DD 5.1 from certain devices, they will not decode.

So you're saying that the 5.1 output from the tv "Apps" are the only thing which is surround sound? And that passthrough is not supported in any way? I have never tested that. I always just go to the AVR.
post #3210 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

That's only for output from TV. Nothing to do with hdmi inputs of the TV. 100% of them can internally handle DD 5,1 for OTA programming but non of them (well except for certain Visio that may or maynot be sold) will accept DD 5.1 input. Their EDID will always say pcm 2.0 only. even if you can force DD 5.1 from certain devices, they will not decode.

So you're saying that the 5.1 output from the tv "Apps" are the only thing which is surround sound? And that passthrough is not supported in any way? I have never tested that. I always just go to the AVR.

A lot of the newer 2012 model TV's, DO output DD5.1 on the optical output when DD5.1 comes in via HDMI - meaning you can connect your A/V receiver to that output.
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