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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 116  

post #3451 of 7721
Unfortunately, I don't think the 1080i issues are going to be resolved in the release firmware. Ceton seems skittish to fully acknowledge the problem, other than suggesting that they're working on the deinterlacer. Playback of 1080i material is the first thing I'll test when the new firmware is posted, but I'm not optimistic.

By the way, I've been really annoyed with the way Ceton has been dealing with bug reports. There's often been very little feedback from Ceton on whether or not they acknowledge a given bug. The 1080i case is a perfect example of this. The bug tracker and beta forum posts have largely gone without responses from Ceton folks, except for a few vague comments where they seem to be hedging. Based on the responses, I'm still not entirely sure they've actually seem this bug manifest itself on their own boxes, despite the fact that many of the beta users find 1080i playback unwatchable on the Echo. I really expected more from Ceton.
post #3452 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I've been really annoyed with the way Ceton has been dealing with bug reports. There's often been very little feedback from Ceton on whether or not they acknowledge a given bug.

+1

This is one of the reasons I haven't bothered turning on my Echo in a couple weeks. A proper beta test should be 2-way communication.
post #3453 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diverge View Post

Thanks for the info!
When my bug report was closed, there really wasn't a good reason why it was closed, or any info on future support. I replied to it, but I guess no one follows up on closed bug reports.

Hmm sorry about that, I wasn't really active at all on the Echo beta as I don't do any development on it. I am about 90% dedicated to the Companion Apps. I will talk to my guys and see. PM me the bug # and I will take a look into it.

Additionally I personally am always on Twitter. I check @CetonBeta, @CetonDevs and @CetonCompanion in tweetdeck with notifications turned on.
post #3454 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

You couldn't be more wrong about it. Let's say you have no clue what WinRT really is.

I know everything there is to know about silverlight, and I developed entire application suites based on versions 3, 4, and 5. So tell me what I don't know; that way I can show you exactly why you're the one that's wrong.
post #3455 of 7721
Just saw a post from Ceton that new firmware coming out will include 1080p streaming. Also they will be adding an Android platform by Christmas!

http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d8df9c2734d4388754bd41fd3&id=8fb137e0df&e=98c39a7709
post #3456 of 7721
quote:
Adding Android Support
Speaking of new features, one of the big projects we’ve been working on is adding the Android platform to Echo!
end quote

Just curious- how does one control and use Android apps with a remote control on a TV? Has anyone else already done this? Android and the apps are geared towards touch screens, right? Using the left/right/up/down buttons and the OK button on the remote would require the display to somehow indicate what object on the screen is currently "selected" should you hit the OK button, right? I've never seen an android device do anything like that... Anyone know?

If Netflix and Amazon Prime apps work, that's about all I'm interested in... (for now...)
post #3457 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by englechgc View Post

Thanks for the info on the tivo mini. i wasnt aware Tivo was coming out with this. I will be keeping my eye on this as well, hopefully it does have a similar feature set as the Q/Echo combination

And it comes complete with those annoying EPG fees.
post #3458 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchusky77 View Post

Just saw a post from Ceton that new firmware coming out will include 1080p streaming. Also they will be adding an Android platform by Christmas!
http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d8df9c2734d4388754bd41fd3&id=8fb137e0df&e=98c39a7709

That was old news about 10 hours ago...
post #3459 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnkflyd51 View Post

quote:
Adding Android Support
Speaking of new features, one of the big projects we’ve been working on is adding the Android platform to Echo!
end quote
Just curious- how does one control and use Android apps with a remote control on a TV? Has anyone else already done this? Android and the apps are geared towards touch screens, right? Using the left/right/up/down buttons and the OK button on the remote would require the display to somehow indicate what object on the screen is currently "selected" should you hit the OK button, right? I've never seen an android device do anything like that... Anyone know?
If Netflix and Amazon Prime apps work, that's about all I'm interested in... (for now...)

I'm sure it would be a modified ICS interface. Android is an open source Linux based operating system. Developers are free to create whatever "skin" they want for it. I'm thinking that ceton's will use a keyboard/mouse or mini keyboard/mouse combo that the user will provide or will have limited control with the remote, at least to get to and control a streamer and then to control other apps.
post #3460 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

Unfortunately, I don't think the 1080i issues are going to be resolved in the release firmware. Ceton seems skittish to fully acknowledge the problem, other than suggesting that they're working on the deinterlacer. Playback of 1080i material is the first thing I'll test when the new firmware is posted, but I'm not optimistic.
By the way, I've been really annoyed with the way Ceton has been dealing with bug reports. There's often been very little feedback from Ceton on whether or not they acknowledge a given bug. The 1080i case is a perfect example of this. The bug tracker and beta forum posts have largely gone without responses from Ceton folks, except for a few vague comments where they seem to be hedging. Based on the responses, I'm still not entirely sure they've actually seem this bug manifest itself on their own boxes, despite the fact that many of the beta users find 1080i playback unwatchable on the Echo. I really expected more from Ceton.

+1 +1 +1

This has been an ongoing issue from day one, but the other real annoying issue which has been handled the same way is the Color Space. I have received the same feedback for both issues, next to none.

To say I am disapointed is more then an understatement. The lack of responses or ackknowladgement of real issues is truely unacceptable.

If you can get past the above two issues, there always the exaggerated volume changes with comercials, yes I said comercials, can't watch the news without them ...
post #3461 of 7721
The idea behind the beta is that we provide feedback to Ceton, not the other way around. They've got enough on their plate trying to fix the bugs in time for product release in a couple of days. I think their time is better spent working on the issues rather than holding the hands of a few beta testers and telling them things are going to be OK. I'd rather have a working Echo than a shiny ego.biggrin.gif
post #3462 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

ICS? I almost spit out my soda..
Ok, once dual-boot support to Android is in, XBMC starts to become a real option. This is now legitimately a contender at $179. I will wait for final production firmware with dual-boot to hit before considering buying one, but this is a game changer. If the hardware is capable enough (and by all indications it is), Android support means we'll have the software. Well played, Ceton. Well played.

I don't really think it changes all that much. IMO dual boot is about equally bad, if not worse than mulitple boxes. There's the issue of how long it takes to reboot, which is often longer than it takes to switch sources (especially with sources like the Roku which are always on). Then there's the issue of it's nearly impossible to automate with a remote, vs switching sources which can be a single button press.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnkflyd51 View Post

quote:
Adding Android Support
Speaking of new features, one of the big projects we’ve been working on is adding the Android platform to Echo!

Shouldn't they have been working on getting 1080i playback working well? 1080p resolution selection? It seems like they've been letting fundamental issues flounder to play with the "fun" stuff, that may or may not be of much use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

The idea behind the beta is that we provide feedback to Ceton, not the other way around.

The idea of a beta is to work with the beta participants to resolve issues prior to a public release. To do that you need to give some sort of feedback.

[QUOTE}They've got enough on their plate trying to fix the bugs in time for product release in a couple of days. I think their time is better spent working on the issues rather than holding the hands of a few beta testers and telling them things are going to be OK.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, like trying to get Android working on it. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
I'd rather have a working Echo than a shiny ego.biggrin.gif

It's in their best interest to provide status updates too, it saves them from being inundated with duplicate bug reports.

All I know is the SageTV betas I was in were run much better all around (hardware/firmware was more baked, communication was much better, etc) than this "beta" seems to be.
post #3463 of 7721
Just the thought of a "whole home" DVR powered by android is enough to make me giddy. The ONLY Windows machine I've had in my house since 2005 (MCE XP, Vista, 7, 8 pro) has been my HTPC...
post #3464 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Shouldn't they have been working on getting 1080i playback working well? 1080p resolution selection? It seems like they've been letting fundamental issues flounder to play with the "fun" stuff, that may or may not be of much use.
There are at least a few possibilities here:

1) They have more than 1 developer working on the project. One could be working on 1080i (throwing more people at a problem won't always get it fixed faster) and another could be working on other features.

2) The 1080i issue needs to be addressed by the chip manufacturer. While waiting for that, Ceton engineers can work on other stuff.

The point is, I don't think any of us know how large the Ceton development team is OR where the responsibility lies in fixing some of the issues that have to be fixed prior to launch. So working on "cool" stuff for a later release doesn't necessarily mean that other important stuff is being neglected.

And yes, it's also possible that they're neglecting important launch stuff to work on cool features for later, but I don't think they're foolish enough to do that.
Edited by gsr - 11/28/12 at 7:04am
post #3465 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

The idea behind the beta is that we provide feedback to Ceton, not the other way around. They've got enough on their plate trying to fix the bugs in time for product release in a couple of days. I think their time is better spent working on the issues rather than holding the hands of a few beta testers and telling them things are going to be OK. I'd rather have a working Echo than a shiny ego.biggrin.gif

It's not about ego, it's about resolving the real issues at hand. There were basically no response from them acknowledging the issues even exist. Even though most of us reported it.

As to saying you would rather they work on the Echo instead of report about it, I have stated this before, there mrketing people could respond to the issues and keep everyone updated. Instead of basically ignoring key issues.

As to what beta is or isn't supposed to be, I have been through to many to count, and let's just say this one is an example of what not to do.

Telling Ceton how great they are doesn't help move things along either, just makes them think tere doing a teriffic job on things. Are they putting long hours in on this I suppose so, but the FW pushes don't reflect that much. Ceton has there game plan and it appears to be taking place on schedule. Having an actual working product can come later apparently.
post #3466 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

There are at least a few possibilities here:
1) They have more than 1 developer working on the project. One could be working on 1080i (throwing more people at a problem won't always get it fixed faster) and another could be working on other features.
2) The 1080i issue needs to be addressed by the chip manufacturer. While waiting for that, Ceton engineers can work on other stuff.
The point is, I don't any of us know how large the Ceton development team is OR where the responsibility lies in fixing some of the issues that have to be fixed prior to launch. So working on "cool" stuff for a later release doesn't necessarily mean that other important stuff is being neglected.
And yes, it's also possible that they're neglecting important launch stuff to work on cool features for later, but I don't think they're foolish enough to do that.

All potentially valid reasons, but IMO they should tell (at least their beta testers) what they're doing. Apparently ignoring significant issues (poor 1080i handling), while sending an email/newsletter out proclaiming how much work they've been doing on Android support while completely ignoring whether or not they've been working on major fundamental issues doesn't instill confidence. I'm not commenting on what they actually are doing, but what it looks like they're doing to those of us following it's progress (or lack there of).

With SageTV they built enough of a history with their users (me) that I bought each extender they produced on "faith", participated in the beta because I knew they'd deliver on what they were doing. This Ceton beta has shown me that I should be weary of buying a Ceton product.
post #3467 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

... With SageTV they built enough of a history with their users (me) that I bought each extender they produced on "faith", participated in the beta because I knew they'd deliver on what they were doing.

+1

I never gave buying one otheir extenders a second thought, I even bought 2 HD300's on release without even checking the review. And I am not that impulsive. I just new from day one what Sage was about and never looked back.
Quote:
This Ceton beta has shown me that I should be weary of buying a Ceton product.

You are not alone in that thinking.
post #3468 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post


As to what beta is or isn't supposed to be, I have been through to many to count, and let's just say this one is an example of what not to do.
.

I'm skeptical that you have been on many real beta programs. Software and hardware quality is my career for the last 20 years and what I'm seeing here is fairly typical especially for a small company. Anyone whining here that they aren't getting pampered may have gotten the wrong impression of their role. Beta participants are not the QA team employed by the company. They are doing the right thing to even attempt a public beta program, but honestly very few companies are funded or staffed to give each and every participant personal attention. You guys should be getting some personal joy out of testing and helping this company become successful in their product launch without disparaging them. Honestly, when I do beta programs like this everyone signs NDA's and any negative comments in public or about the product would be a legal issue. Rightly so, really. Product development can be messy esp with hardware components and drop dead dates like holiday seasons. Its hard work. I have no idea how this product will end up, but I've seen amazing work done to finish up products on time when most people thought it was impossible.
post #3469 of 7721
I am having trouble figuring out what all the hubbub is about 1080i. The news release says 1080. No mention of i or p. I assume both.
post #3470 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I am having trouble figuring out what all the hubbub is about 1080i. The news release says 1080. No mention of i or p. I assume both.

Just admit it, your 'old' eyes are not what they used to be j/k

There are two issues with 1080:
(1) 1080p output. Nowadays, even a $200 cheapo TV supports 1080p native resolution. So 1080p output is a must.
(2) 1080i deinterlacing problem. This is what a lot ppl, myself included, are complaining.

Hopefully, this miracle firmware fixes both issues.
post #3471 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I am having trouble figuring out what all the hubbub is about 1080i. The news release says 1080. No mention of i or p. I assume both.

+1 - 1080p will be great but for now, I can live with 1081i...

Let's just hope they bring a stable product to market. I think most of us can be patient for new / better things to come.

Ray
post #3472 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I am having trouble figuring out what all the hubbub is about 1080i. The news release says 1080. No mention of i or p. I assume both.
Even though I'm not participating in the beta (I opted out when my turn came up primarily due to the audio and video limitations because I knew I wouldn't use the Echo until those limitations were addressed - as it turns out that would have meant that I wouldn't have participated in the beta at all), all the "hubbub about 1080" is 2 things:

1) A LOT of the beta testers are currently finding 1080i TV programming unwatchable on the Echo due to deinterlacing and/or scaling issues. Given that most HDTV programming is 1080i, this is a pretty big deal and something that OBVIOUSLY has to be addressed before launch. Just because you aren't experiencing this issue (as you've made clear over and over) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's part of the point of having a beta as different hardware combinations react differently.

2) ANY product of this sort HAS to support 1080p output these days. While 720p might be acceptable during the beta test period, it really wouldn't be acceptable for a released product.

Similarly, bitstream output of Dolby Digital on both HDMI and the toslink output are absolute must haves for release - restricting audio to downconverted 2 channel audio just isn't good enough for this type of product.
post #3473 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockinRay View Post

+1 - 1080p will be great but for now, I can live with 1081i...
Let's just hope they bring a stable product to market. I think most of us can be patient for new / better things to come.
Ray
My understanding is that output is currently limited to 720p, so 1080i is currently deinterlaced (with issues) and then scaled down to 720p for output.
post #3474 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

...The idea of a beta is to work with the beta participants to resolve issues prior to a public release. To do that you need to give some sort of feedback.
It's in their best interest to provide status updates too, it saves them from being inundated with duplicate bug reports.

I do not see much correlation between providing status updates and the quantity of duplicate bug reports. Either people understand ceton's request of SEARCHING for a particular issue and reporting it in the already existing bug report or they don't. I think that the correlation is closer to zero than it is to one.
post #3475 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

My understanding is that output is currently limited to 720p, so 1080i is currently deinterlaced (with issues) and then scaled down to 720p for output.

So if it natively outputs 1080i, the TV or AVR can take care of the de-interlacing and the echo doesn't have to do it at all.
post #3476 of 7721
Support for 1080i/p output by itself isn't going to fix the 1080i playback problem. Assuming just about everyone is playing back some combination of 720p and 1080i material (and perhaps even 1080p material), you'd probably want to set the display output of the Echo to 1080p (unless for some goofy reason you're trying to work around a terrible deinterlacer when the interlacer is adequate). Native resolution switching could have been a decent workaround, as it could simply output at the resolution of the video file. But, I actually don't use native resolution switching on my Sage extenders- the roughly 3-second black screen on my TV everytime the resolution changes is just too jarring. The Sage extenders' deinterlacer and scaler is good enough for me (my biggest problem with it was that it doesn't do a great job with 480i material, which I don't have anymore).
post #3477 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

So if it natively outputs 1080i, the TV or AVR can take care of the de-interlacing and the echo doesn't have to do it at all.

I sort of just said this (sorry, I missed your post before I wrote my last one), but I suspect then you're just going to run into problems then with the 720p material. I guess we'll find out. It's still far from ideal. You wouldn't want to interlace 720p material and scale it to 1080i. You'd be better off just scaling it.

Plus, 2 out of my 3 TVs are 720p. You're proposing that I interlace and scale the 720p material to 1080i and send it to my TV only to have it deinterlace and scale it back down to 720p. That's a terrible workaround.
post #3478 of 7721
I wonder, with a more powerful chip, if the Echo might be able to do that switch faster. I know that on my HTPC, using MPC-HC with MadVR the switch from 60 to 23.xxx takes about ½ to 1 second and that is with an i3-550 and an nVidia GT-430.
post #3479 of 7721
If Echo can output native resolution, e.g. 720p and 1080i, it will set itself apart from other extenders. But serious doubt it because of the WMC UI overlay,
post #3480 of 7721
Got a tracking number from Newegg, shipping out of Memphis. I figure I'll be joining the Echo fun by this weekend.
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