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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 139  

post #4141 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Except the desire. I'v seen no signs that Microsoft has any desire to do anything that requires a tuner or recording. Microsoft has put all its eggs in the streaming basket. It can't be a coincidence that with all the new 360 apps, not a single one works as an extender for any TV provider's STB -- the Comcast and FiOS apps are IPTV, not tuner based and can't access DVR'd content.
Sony has done stuff like this with the PS3 in other countries, so that and the hard drive gives me some reasons to believe Sony might do this.

Agreed. Microsoft has some big streaming plans.

Microsoft 'Xbox TV' device due in 2013 with casual gaming and streaming
post #4142 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Can clock timings in hardware be fixed by software? I know that yhe audio and video cocks are not matched on PC's but that is fixed with software. Can this be done with the Freescale SoC? Does it have the ability to stream HBR mkvs? Will they need to recall the hardware because the chip is broken?

I don't fully understand the problem, but I do know that everyone I've talked to at Ceton fully expects to release a firmware update to fix the 1080i playback issue. In fact they were optimistic that it'd be fixed by now. No offense to anyone in this thread, but I think if it was an unworkable hardware limitation, Ceton would've determined that by now and told people. My guess is that the Ceton Dev crew is fully aware of the chip's limitations and had already engineered a solution, but the chip isn't responding as documented and they are working with Freecell to figure out why. Perhaps they are using function that wasn't fully tested, who knows.
post #4143 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by tootal2 View Post

How do I install the ceton echo beta? I click beta in the about menu and save. The beta firmware has not installed yet.
What is a beta firmware number?
thanks
You need to power cycle the Echo. After you see the connecting screen it will then display the ceton logo with a progress bar. When the firmware update is complete the Echo will reboot on its own and display the new firmware version on the connecting screen along with your IP address and MAC address.
post #4144 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I don't fully understand the problem, but I do know that everyone I've talked to at Ceton fully expects to release a firmware update to fix the 1080i playback issue. In fact they were optimistic that it'd be fixed by now. No offense to anyone in this thread, but I think if it was an unworkable hardware limitation, Ceton would've determined that by now and told people. My guess is that the Ceton Dev crew is fully aware of the chip's limitations and had already engineered a solution, but the chip isn't responding as documented and they are working with Freecell to figure out why. Perhaps they are using function that wasn't fully tested, who knows.

There was a post earlier in this thread by wizziwigg stating that the clock timings of the chip weren't right to process 1080i. He/She had read some spec on freescale's site that indicated this to him/her but I don't know what it was all about and no direct link was provided.
post #4145 of 7721
Here's another post discussing it. I don't know enough to know if what is being said is correct.
post #4146 of 7721
Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.
post #4147 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.

I think it is clear by now that while we are all beta testing Echos for Ceton, Ceton is beta testing for Freescale. The SoC is hot off the fab line and Freescale has a lot to do to firm up the basic software support.
post #4148 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.
post #4149 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Yes, I read that comment. The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i, so the chip will need to convert to 1080p or 720p. It seems very improbable to me that a modern chip like this one can't properly de-interlace 1080i to 1080p. We aren't talking about changing the frame rate, is is 30fps regardless.
There are 2 separate issues.

The first is that a lot of people are having issues with 1080i content just not playing well regardless of the selected output resolution (and I don't recall seeing anyone list 1080i as a supported output resolution for the Echo). This is the problem were people are saying the output is just completely unwatchable, makes them feel sea sick, etc. This is presumably an issue with how the Echo is handling deinterlacing and scaling or it could just be some sort of bandwidth issue similar to what's going on with high bitrate MKV files. Ceton should be able to fix this with a firmware update. If they can't fix it with a firmware update, it's clearly a pretty major problem with the Freescale chip.

The 2nd issue is that, at least according to documentation people have seen, the Freescale can't output 720p or 1080p at 59.94 fps, but just at 60.0 fps. This means there will be a skipped fame every once in a while and probably won't even be noticed by a lot of people. If this IS a hardware limitation, it obviously can't be fixed with a firmware update and is something people will have to live with if they want to stick with the Echo.
post #4150 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.
Because all extenders output a fixed resolution so far. So, if you set to 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i. 1080p is the best approach.
post #4151 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

why would you assume "The reality is that no one wants to output as 1080i"? I always prefer to output in same resolution as the broadcast. The scaler in my TV/VP IMO is far superior to anything the echo can and would be capable of.
Because all extenders output a fixed resolution so far. So, if you set to 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i. 1080p is the best approach.

yes 100% agree. I didn't know where the OP was going with the statement and I prefer my TV does any scaling to 1080p.
post #4152 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The 2nd issue is that, at least according to documentation people have seen, the Freescale can't output 720p or 1080p at 59.94 fps, but just at 60.0 fps. This means there will be a skipped fame every once in a while and probably won't even be noticed by a lot of people. If this IS a hardware limitation, it obviously can't be fixed with a firmware update and is something people will have to live with if they want to stick with the Echo.

The more I think about this the less sense it makes. My TVs have either a 60Hz or 120Hz refresh rate. So, even if the Echo did output at 59.94fps, wouldn't my TV still have to doubling a frame once in a while?
post #4153 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

The more I think about this the less sense it makes. My TVs have either a 60Hz or 120Hz refresh rate. So, even if the Echo did output at 59.94fps, wouldn't my TV still have to doubling a frame once in a while?
On your TV (and most consumer electronic devices), 60hz native refresh rate is really 59.94hz.

It's why you have a 59hz option and 60hz option for monitors in Windows Display settings:
  1. 59hz = TV-Compatibility timing of 60hz (59.94 but shown as an integer in display settings) for use on TV sets.
  2. 60hz = true 60hz for monitors that support it.

Same applies for 23/24hz settings.
Edited by vladd - 12/8/12 at 10:22pm
post #4154 of 7721
My TV only does 1080i, not 1080p.
post #4155 of 7721
It is the documentation that wizziwigg was talking about that showed that the echo cannot do 59.94fps. This has not been refuted by anybody. I don't know about how to convert pixel clock speed to fps but there is no whole real integer number that does it so there must be a formula somewhere plus I could not find the documentation showing the pixel clock speed on Freescale's website.
post #4156 of 7721
Check this thread out as someone was investigating a device similiar to the Ceton Echo using the same chip. Doesn't look good.

https://community.freescale.com/message/308922#308922
post #4157 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

It is the documentation that wizziwigg was talking about that showed that the echo cannot do 59.94fps. This has not been refuted by anybody.

Yet another case where Ceton could easily squash this speculation by giving us the facts but for some reason they refuse to...
post #4158 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by caeguy View Post

Check this thread out as someone was investigating a device similiar to the Ceton Echo using the same chip. Doesn't look good.
https://community.freescale.com/message/308922#308922

No, it doesn't. If freescale said their chip conforms to the HDMI spec for this and it doesn't then they are going to have to make it right, don't you think? Whether they are as good as a company as ceton remains to be seen. I mean replace the chip and redo the whole thing for ceton as well as pay the costs of a replacement program for echos that we have right now. Proper playback of common frame rates is a necessity here.
post #4159 of 7721
A freescale employee's response to the issue:
Quote:
I know there is an on going work to improve this. How it's an on-going work, I cannot detail it to you.

I would suggest you to enter a SR asking for it, or wait for some next release.
post #4160 of 7721
they took 1080i out of the beta firmware. But you can still use 720p.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

My TV only does 1080i, not 1080p.
post #4161 of 7721
I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for deinteralcing and standard US video frame rates, which doesn't appear to be the case. This looks like Ceton enigneering blew this big time by giving Freescale the design win. Clearly Ceton engineering knew virtually nothing about consumer video displays. Heaven forbid they have to recall all the Echos they sold and rework them with another chipset from Freescale or another vendor. Ceton could easily not survive a blunder of this proportion. Actually, I think you would have had to work really hard to make a mistake this serious.
post #4162 of 7721
Freescale said it is HDMI 1.4a compliant and that spec includes these frame rates from what I understand.
post #4163 of 7721
As GSR mentioned, we're discussing 2 issues. I expect 1080i material to be worked out fairly quickly via firmware; both handling deinterlacing and output. The timing issue is another story and we could be limited by the hardware.
post #4164 of 7721
Aren't the timings and the de-interlacing related so we are talking about the same thing? If the timing is off, there's no choice but to skip a frame every 16.667 seconds which is noticeable.
post #4165 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Aren't the timings and the de-interlacing related so we are talking about the same thing? If the timing is off, there's no choice but to skip a frame every 16.667 seconds which is noticeable.

No, I don't think they're related in any way. I'm not sure why you can't see the deinterlacing problem, but it's not caused by skipping frames.
post #4166 of 7721
I see what you are talking about mostly in live sports and it makes it nearly unwatchable. That is fixable with software but the other issue is getting the frame rate correct so that there isn't 6 skips a minute which is less annoying but also noticeable.
post #4167 of 7721
Sammy2 - Do you think your HTPC handles timing perfectly?
post #4168 of 7721
No, but much, much better. I've tried to watch the Lakers on TWCSportsnet and had to shut off the echo and go with the HTPC. I have an nVidia GT-430 GPU too as the i3-550 HD2000 graphics wasn't cutting it at all.
post #4169 of 7721
I am not converting my library. Low bit rate stuff does okay. High bit rate stuff doesn't. And TV content is still questionable.
post #4170 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_video View Post

You need to power cycle the Echo. After you see the connecting screen it will then display the ceton logo with a progress bar. When the firmware update is complete the Echo will reboot on its own and display the new firmware version on the connecting screen along with your IP address and MAC address.

I didn't have to do that, When you go in the echo extra screen, there should be an update button if your set for beta firmware and there is a new version available.
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