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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 140  

post #4171 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

No, but much, much better. I've tried to watch the Lakers on TWCSportsnet and had to shut off the echo and go with the HTPC. I have an nVidia GT-430 GPU too as the i3-550 HD2000 graphics wasn't cutting it at all.

I don't think that's the timing issue- I think its the horrible deinterlacer (or maybe that and the scaler).

I kind of doubt the timing issue would be that noticeable. At least, I suspect it wouldn't look any worse than a normal HTPC.
post #4172 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

The 2012.1206 update should address this. I will post instructions on how to opt-in to this beta update shortly.

Maybe I missed it in the thread but have these instructions been posted?
post #4173 of 7721
Are any of you using the echo over a long HDMI run? I have about a 35ft run using a really heavy guage HDMI cable I picked up from monoproce. The echo doesn't seem to have a strong enough HDMI signal to go the full distance. I am also using an inexpensive inline repeater with no luck. Anyone else with similar experience or suggestions?

Thanks
post #4174 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatvent View Post

Are any of you using the echo over a long HDMI run? I have about a 35ft run using a really heavy guage HDMI cable I picked up from monoproce. The echo doesn't seem to have a strong enough HDMI signal to go the full distance. I am also using an inexpensive inline repeater with no luck. Anyone else with similar experience or suggestions?
Thanks

I am using a 50ft monoprice cable to my Epson 3010 - no issues (with that) at all.

xnappo
post #4175 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatvent View Post

Maybe I missed it in the thread but have these instructions been posted?

Do you have the echo settings app installed on the host (HT)PC?
post #4176 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

yes 100% agree. I didn't know where the OP was going with the statement and I prefer my TV does any scaling to 1080p.

I agree that I prefer the device to output at the content's native resolution and allow my TV to do any necessary conversion. But. Afaik, Media Center doesn't support it. I've tried to do it by changing the output resolution on my HTPC dynamically based on the source, didn't work out well. And I know no Extender for MC has ever offered this. So my point was, with native resolution off the table, who would choose 1080i as the output resolution when that meant converting 720p to 1080i. As for the person who has the TV who only accepts 1080i, I'm sorry, but it's time for a new TV.
post #4177 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for deinteralcing and standard US video frame rates, which doesn't appear to be the case. This looks like Ceton enigneering blew this big time by giving Freescale the design win. Clearly Ceton engineering knew virtually nothing about consumer video displays. Heaven forbid they have to recall all the Echos they sold and rework them with another chipset from Freescale or another vendor. Ceton could easily not survive a blunder of this proportion. Actually, I think you would have had to work really hard to make a mistake this serious.

My understanding is that Ceton is trying to get the Freescale processor to do exactly what it is spec'd to do. Ceton is a lot of things, but they are not liars -- which is what you are claiming by saying they blew it and are not trying to cover it up.
post #4178 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for deinteralcing and standard US video frame rates, which doesn't appear to be the case. This looks like Ceton enigneering blew this big time by giving Freescale the design win. Clearly Ceton engineering knew virtually nothing about consumer video displays. Heaven forbid they have to recall all the Echos they sold and rework them with another chipset from Freescale or another vendor. Ceton could easily not survive a blunder of this proportion. Actually, I think you would have had to work really hard to make a mistake this serious.

My understanding is that Ceton is trying to get the Freescale processor to do exactly what it is spec'd to do. Ceton is a lot of things, but they are not liars -- which is what you are claiming by saying they blew it and are not trying to cover it up.

Do you have access to the spec sheet that shows that the chip actually supports the supposed spec? There was some information posted here that leads to believe that perhaps the processor was not designed to support the spec.
post #4179 of 7721
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatvent View Post

Are any of you using the echo over a long HDMI run? I have about a 35ft run using a really heavy guage HDMI cable I picked up from monoproce. The echo doesn't seem to have a strong enough HDMI signal to go the full distance. I am also using an inexpensive inline repeater with no luck. Anyone else with similar experience or suggestions?

Thanks

I have tested it out in my PJ setup with a 35 ft mono HDMI cable no problems. I go through a AVR which may assist.
post #4180 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

I am using a 50ft monoprice cable to my Epson 3010 - no issues (with that) at all.
xnappo

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

I have tested it out in my PJ setup with a 35 ft mono HDMI cable no problems. I go through a AVR which may assist.

I am sure the AVR helps. That's how I have mine working at the moment though I would rather go directly to the TV.
post #4181 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Do you have the echo settings app installed on the host (HT)PC?

Thanks, figured it out. I tried the beta updates but maybe I wasn't waiting long enough. Got it to work now.
post #4182 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I agree that I prefer the device to output at the content's native resolution and allow my TV to do any necessary conversion. But. Afaik, Media Center doesn't support it. I've tried to do it by changing the output resolution on my HTPC dynamically based on the source, didn't work out well. And I know no Extender for MC has ever offered this. So my point was, with native resolution off the table, who would choose 1080i as the output resolution when that meant converting 720p to 1080i. As for the person who has the TV who only accepts 1080i, I'm sorry, but it's time for a new TV.

My HP X280n outputs either 1080i or 720P.That is a 2006-2008 era device probably designed in 2005.

1080i can be derived from 1080P without error.All my TV sets properly deinterlace 1080i as does my DVDO DUO and Radiance XS Video Processors. Both external processor boxes can take poorly deinterlaced 1080i reinterlace the lousy 1080P and properly deinterlace to superb 1080P. Neither can re-deinterlace content that has been scaled already. There is no reason that 1080i should not be available as an ouptut resolution as it can be properly derived from 480l, 480p, 720P and 1080P content. Any modern device should be able to properly deinterlace 1080i. Any video controller made today that can't deinterlace 1080i extremely well is a total pile of crap and should not be manufactured. This is not 2005 when 1080P devices were first hitting the market and had difficulty with the standard film and video cadences.. For anything manufactured in 2006 or later I would consider improper handling of 1080i source to be defective equipment. For anything as new as the chipset in the Echo the current situation is mind boggling.
post #4183 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

My understanding is that Ceton is trying to get the Freescale processor to do exactly what it is spec'd to do. Ceton is a lot of things, but they are not liars -- which is what you are claiming by saying they blew it and are not trying to cover it up.

You are putting words in my mouth and asserting I wrote things I did not write. I did say they blew it... At the very least this is a PR disaster and it remains to be seen how it is rescued if it can be at all. Anyone slightly technical who frequents this board were they consulting in the design phase would have been making sure about the caliber of deinterlacing and the video dlisplya modes and timings of the chipset. At best this was boneheaded but Ceton has done itself immeasurable damage by either not doing due dilligence or being mislead by their vendor.I hope they can rescue the situation without a recall.........
post #4184 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

My understanding is that Ceton is trying to get the Freescale processor to do exactly what it is spec'd to do. Ceton is a lot of things, but they are not liars -- which is what you are claiming by saying they blew it and are not trying to cover it up.

I don't know what you were reading...... I question competence not integrity.
post #4185 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

I agree that I prefer the device to output at the content's native resolution and allow my TV to do any necessary conversion. But. Afaik, Media Center doesn't support it. I've tried to do it by changing the output resolution on my HTPC dynamically based on the source, didn't work out well. And I know no Extender for MC has ever offered this. So my point was, with native resolution off the table, who would choose 1080i as the output resolution when that meant converting 720p to 1080i.

Um, my Linksys extender, both of my Xboxes, and my Tivo Elite? They're all set to output 1080i (and scale 720p), and all of them handle it flawlessly. You should expect no less from the Echo.

You know that many sets sold today only accept the standard ATSC resolutions, right? That does not include 1080p, so people have to either do native or scale to 1080i. I just bought a Samsung 32" 720p set for an extra room, for example, and it has great pic even at 1080i.
post #4186 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Um, my Linksys extender, both of my Xboxes, and my Tivo Elite? They're all set to output 1080i (and scale 720p), and all of them handle it flawlessly. You should expect no less from the Echo.

That is until you encounter some movies that are first telecined into 720p60, interlaced into 1080i and cause major confusion for a TV's cheap interlacer.
Quote:
You know that many sets sold today only accept the standard ATSC resolutions, right? That does not include 1080p, so people have to either do native or scale to 1080i. I just bought a Samsung 32" 720p set for an extra room, for example, and it has great pic even at 1080i.

Care to list a few such TVs? Most will happily accept 1080p signal even though it may not be able to display the full resolution. A 720p TV doesn't mean it can't accept 1080p. Even my 5-year old 37" 1024x720 Panasonic Plasma can accept 1080p signal.

Bottomline, there is no reason why should you even set to 1080i output signal if your TV accepts 1080p.
post #4187 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Bottomline, there is no reason why should you even set to 1080i output signal if your TV accepts 1080p.

I can agree that for some this is the case, but it's not an absolute. It's quite possible to have a better VP in the AVR, TV or in more niche cases a dedicated VP than what the Echo (or most other boxes in its class) are capable of. Ideally the option to output 1080i should be offered.

It does raise an interesting question though, because while the content is 1080i native the UI is progressive. How is it overlaid during playback? Does the chip DI video -> mix 2 frames -> I output, or interlace the UI frame and try to mix the two I fields into a single field (that doesn't seem easy) for output?
post #4188 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Bottomline, there is no reason why should you even set to 1080i output signal if your TV accepts 1080p.

The point here is that existing extenders, the Xbox, and Tivo all scale and output to 1080i for live and recorded TV just fine, because the max HD res is 1080i. The Echo should do the same regardless, because that's the standard.

FYI the current Tivos won't even do 1080p for TV, only for 24 frame source video.
post #4189 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for deinteralcing ...




Edited by babgvant - 12/10/12 at 6:35am
post #4190 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatvent View Post

I am sure the AVR helps. That's how I have mine working at the moment though I would rather go directly to the TV.

Mine is directly attached to the Ceton - no AVR.

xnappo
post #4191 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

1080i can be derived from 1080P without error.

I wish this were true, but the reality is that when video is captured at 1080i60, the two fields that make up the frame are not capture simultaneously. Therefor when you weave the two frames together and display them at the exact same time, there will be some artifacts. The more the image changed between the two frames, the more obvious this will be. If you weren't including these artifacts as error, then I agree with what you are saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

All my TV sets properly deinterlace 1080i as does my DVDO DUO and Radiance XS Video Processors. Both external processor boxes can take poorly deinterlaced 1080i reinterlace the lousy 1080P and properly deinterlace to superb 1080P. Neither can re-deinterlace content that has been scaled already. There is no reason that 1080i should not be available as an ouptut resolution as it can be properly derived from 480l, 480p, 720P and 1080P content. Any modern device should be able to properly deinterlace 1080i. Any video controller made today that can't deinterlace 1080i extremely well is a total pile of crap and should not be manufactured. This is not 2005 when 1080P devices were first hitting the market and had difficulty with the standard film and video cadences.. For anything manufactured in 2006 or later I would consider improper handling of 1080i source to be defective equipment. For anything as new as the chipset in the Echo the current situation is mind boggling.

I 100% agree that the Echo should be able to properly de-interlace 1080i.
post #4192 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I can't blame this fiasco on Freescale unless their specs indicated proper support for ... standard US video frame rates, which doesn't appear to be the case.



The claims appear to be there...



Although interestingly, a bit later they seem to contradict the earlier assertion.
Edited by babgvant - 12/10/12 at 7:13am
post #4193 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

You are putting words in my mouth and asserting I wrote things I did not write. I did say they blew it... At the very least this is a PR disaster and it remains to be seen how it is rescued if it can be at all. Anyone slightly technical who frequents this board were they consulting in the design phase would have been making sure about the caliber of deinterlacing and the video dlisplya modes and timings of the chipset. At best this was boneheaded but Ceton has done itself immeasurable damage by either not doing due dilligence or being mislead by their vendor.I hope they can rescue the situation without a recall.........

Didn't mean to put words in your mouse, excuse me. It is obvious they blew it, or it would be working when the product shipped. My point was that if they blew it to the point of requiring a recall and were now trying to cover up their blunder; that wouldn't be competency, that would be a lack of integrity. It seems their blonder was believing the cutting edge Freescale chip would work as advertised.
post #4194 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Um, my Linksys extender, both of my Xboxes, and my Tivo Elite? They're all set to output 1080i (and scale 720p), and all of them handle it flawlessly. You should expect no less from the Echo.

Those extenders won't dynamically change the output resolution so that it always passes through the native resolution, which is what I was attempting to say. You have to choose a resolution and then all the content that doesn't match that resolution gets converted to it. Unless you have an older TV that only accepts 1080i, I don't see why anyone would set their extender to output 1080i when it means it'll convert 720p60 to 1080i.
post #4195 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

I can agree that for some this is the case, but it's not an absolute. It's quite possible to have a better VP in the AVR, TV or in more niche cases a dedicated VP than what the Echo (or most other boxes in its class) are capable of. Ideally the option to output 1080i should be offered.
It does raise an interesting question though, because while the content is 1080i native the UI is progressive. How is it overlaid during playback? Does the chip DI video -> mix 2 frames -> I output, or interlace the UI frame and try to mix the two I fields into a single field (that doesn't seem easy) for output?

As pointed out repeatedly, no extenders can output native resolution. So, if you pick 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i as well. Yes, I agree Echo should support 1080i. I just don't see how that will give you better PQ. For 720p channels, it will have to be converted from 1280x720 60P into 1920x1080 interlaced 30p/60i. So, while you maintains PQ of 1080i channels, you sacrificed 720p channels. For the channels I mostly watch, 1080i and 720p are about half and half.
post #4196 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Those extenders won't dynamically change the output resolution so that it always passes through the native resolution, which is what I was attempting to say. You have to choose a resolution and then all the content that doesn't match that resolution gets converted to it. Unless you have an older TV that only accepts 1080i, I don't see why anyone would set their extender to output 1080i when it means it'll convert 720p60 to 1080i.

Because that's the max fixed res that they support - as you said, the existing extenders don't do native so you don't have a choice. I guess you might be talking about the Echo here though.

Mine are all set to 1080i as I posted, and I see no difference with 720p channels if I set my Tivo to native instead of upscaling to 1080i. Perhaps it's my TV, a 46" Panny S1 plasma, or I'm just not looking hard enough, but 1080i fixed works fine for all TV content. And more importantly, avoids the annoying lag and screen flicker for res changes with native.

There should be no issue with setting the Echo for 1080i, and it should be supported. But if it can do 1080p instead and look just as good, I suppose that's an issue that people are going to have to deal with if it never does 1080i correctly. They'll have to only use it on sets that can handle 1080p or set it to 720p instead and accept the downscale for 1080i channels.
post #4197 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

As pointed out repeatedly, no extenders can output native resolution.

Word choice is important. When "there is no reason..." is asserted and a legitimate use case exists which demonstrates the error of the fallacious statement it's not unreasonable to expect that someone will point it out - repeatedly if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

So, if you pick 1080i, your 720p channels will be interlaced into 1080i as well. Yes, I agree Echo should support 1080i. I just don't see how that will give you better PQ. For 720p channels, it will have to be converted from 1280x720 60P into 1920x1080 interlaced 30p/60i. So, while you maintains PQ of 1080i channels, you sacrificed 720p channels. For the channels I mostly watch, 1080i and 720p are about half and half.

Everything requires choice, and choices have consequences. Measuring the consequences of choice is how reasonable people make decisions. In your case it might not make sense to select 1080i, but for someone who watches little to no sports programming (i.e. the majority of 720p channels) the balance (and therefore output) might be different.
post #4198 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

Didn't mean to put words in your mouse, excuse me.

Was it really necessary to bring his mouse into it? I sure hope this doesn't escalate further.
post #4199 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post


The claims appear to be there...

Although interestingly, a bit later they seem to contradict the earlier assertion.

The first chart is promissing. Now for implementation and hopefully the chip does what freescale claims it does, of course.

Isn't that second chart dealing with audio and not video?
post #4200 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Because that's the max fixed res that they support - as you said, the existing extenders don't do native so you don't have a choice. I guess you might be talking about the Echo here though.
Mine are all set to 1080i as I posted, and I see no difference with 720p channels if I set my Tivo to native instead of upscaling to 1080i. Perhaps it's my TV, a 46" Panny S1 plasma, or I'm just not looking hard enough, but 1080i fixed works fine for all TV content. And more importantly, avoids the annoying lag and screen flicker for res changes with native.

The places where you may notice the difference is live sports. But with most of the cable providers heavily compress the signal, it is hard to even notice that much of difference but no doubt it may be there. That's being said, if the box supports 1080p, there is really no reason to select 1080i over 1080p. Here we are strictly talking about fix resolution output devices like Echo.
Quote:
There should be no issue with setting the Echo for 1080i, and it should be supported. But if it can do 1080p instead and look just as good, I suppose that's an issue that people are going to have to deal with if it never does 1080i correctly. They'll have to only use it on sets that can handle 1080p or set it to 720p instead and accept the downscale for 1080i channels.

You will be supprised that how many 720p TVs actually DO accept 1080p signals these days. Some 720p TVs actual does a better downscale job from 1080p than 1080i. Since these 720p TVs are typically low budget productions, there is little or no chance the manufacturer will put in a superb deinterlacer.
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