Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 167

Great point. We wouldn't want a forum to become a place where people share experiences and advice....Wait, yes we would. Just trying to help.

I wasn't the OP but I felt the need to offer my opinion anyways!

Why do you feel that a consumer who paid their hard earned money for a product that was promised to do so much more than it currently does is being entitled or misguided? Any consumer is entitled to state their displeasure with a product they purchased if it doesn't deliver to their expectations. Goodwill is not a right it's a continually earned benefit. If certain actions lead your customer base to think you may not have their best interest in mind, no context is needed to express their displeasure.

If this was one of the larger conglomerates it would be ok to kill them in the public domain but for some reason anytime a "consumer" challenges the process/actions of a smaller ID company the consumer deserves to be chastised and not the company. We can chastise MS, Panasonic and JVC because they have what appears to be endless resources, but not a smaller outfit whose employees participate In online forums. On that I call bull!

There are just as many people reporting issues/failures as those reporting grand success. What makes you so accurate in your assessment of the product works versus theirs? Perhaps your assessment (or mine) is wrong. The act of chastising or degrading another's words is an attempt to censor. And for some it's seen as a direct slap in the face. Just saying!

Well I haven't heard widespread reports of this issue and I've been following this thread for a long time and am in the beta forum as well. To say it matter of factly that you should not get it because it doesn't work sounds a bit stretched to me. It is the way it is said that is the issue. It is not a fact that getting a Harmony is a bad idea because it doesn't work. My H-900 works great with the echo.

Wow...lots of opinions....and I have some as well.

I think.....er....well....haven't bought a single Echo yet. I think that says it all.

I have a very high opinion of Ceton as a corporate, but that doesn't mean it translates "automatically" to all of their products. Just like....I think Microsoft is losing it with Windows 8, but I still think Microsoft as a "corporate" is a good company.

Come on ceton.. Release the next f/w so we can talk about something worthwhile in here!

We actually pushed a new update to the beta channel earlier today

The last public release was Dec. 19 so we are going on 4 weeks now without any updates. You need to throw the rest (most) of us a bone here...

They aren't necessarily. It depends on the foundations of the entitlement and the expression thereof. In this case neither was consistent with the proper way one should express these sorts of things. You are free to disagree of course, but like I stated earlier (differently) nothing occurs in a vacuum; there is a natural consequence for every choice.

Of course they are. I have a feeling that you didn't read what I wrote thoroughly. It's not the feeling or opinion that I took issue with, it was the delivery.

Everything has context. It is ignorant to believe otherwise. Choosing to ignore context is an option we are free to take, but doing so says more about the speaker than the target.

Again, there seems to be a failure to recognize the distinction b/w message and delivery. A statement of frustration is one thing ("I'm frustrated"), rude comments ("quit lazing around and fix my Echo") quite another. Oddly the OP here seems to have removed his post (or had it removed) so perhaps you missed it. I have a copy in my inbox if you'd like to read it.

Call all you want. I don't agree with rude comments of the nature that were made in general, doesn't matter who the target is. If you want to behave poorly that is your prerogative, don't expect that everyone will sit idly by while you do it.

Where did I say this person's (or anyone's for that matter) experience was invalid? I can't speak to their experience, just my own; calling out that my experience is different is clarifying not censoring.

That said, I do believe that my knowledge of WMC, media frameworks, media streamers, HTPC, etc. uniquely qualifies me to judge a product's quality in a controlled, reliable way. This isn't the first product I've reviewed, been doing this a long time.

I don't agree with this, doing so would require some sort of obscene spiraling logic (who is censoring whom, does the first speaker get priority just because they are first, etc?). If being called out for bad behavior is perceived as censorship or a slap in the face, then I suspect it is just another artifact of the same poorly formed decision making skills which got them called out in the first place.

Anyone is free to disagree though. Everyone is entitled to an opinion no matter how misguided and ill informed. They should not be surprised however, that when they venture out in to the world and share them, that the foundations (or more precisely, the lack of) are highlighted - emperor/cloths style.

Well, when companies launch half-baked products, people are going to be pissed and deservedly so. You must not have lived through Silicondust's launch of the HDHomeRun Prime. The feedback posts here on the Echo are tame compared to the vicious attacks on SD's forum during the Prime launch. My point is that when companies choose to launch products on public forums as Silicondust and Ceton have done, feedback will range from polite to savage. If you want Kumbaya, release under NDA and work out the problems before going public.

Your original post quoted no OP. It seemed like a blanket defense of "Ceton" and an attack to those of us who had voiced displeasure. IMO and based on a quick read you were providing some form of warning shot that we need to be cautious in what is said because we may suffer the consequences. Perhaps this was just context OR lack of! However, in reality the folks that choose to pony up their dollars hold the upper hand. It is the consumer who has choice in how they spend their money. It is us that make the missingremote worthwhile. Not the advertisers. They only pay the bills. The real drivers are the consumers of the products which your site advertises.

Your "context" argument confuses me. The only context consumers need to have when they choose to call a spade a spade is their interpretation of the products performance. Perhaps its best we march along with the inherent belief that all of the promised functionality would be delivered prior to the ominous "return deadline". Consumers who bought the product and read posts here and elsewhere regarding events of the previous week while they are in possession of a product that partially works, IMO, have all of the context they need for complaining.

I apologize for my part in derailing this thread. Did someone say THERE WAS AN UPDATED fw

Just started getting into my Echo. Is there a way to set it or force it to take beta releases? For me it seems to be a decent investment, but I am debating returning it a spending the extra $20 on a second Xbox for the bedroom simply because I can't access Netflix and Amazon through it. I was hoping add ons would be selectable. That said, I could likely move the Roku there once the HTPC is built. I really don't want another device, but it may be a solution.

How is the return policy set up to work? I just bought mine a week ago, but would like to give the Echo a fair shot for as long as possible.

I just updated my echo to the latest beta and I'm not seeing one improvement on my end, in fact it's more like another minor setback! This beta said it only addressed two known issues? Well, neither of those issues are fixed so what is going on over there?

Right now as it stands, I can't listen to music if I've been watching TV unless I want to restart the device, I can't use my windows 8 machine OR my main HTPC since it uses networked drives from my media server and oh yeah, not one single movie in my collection plays unless you count the low bit rate 720p movies that studder like crazy... oh and it freezes up on me at least once a day...

If there aren't significant updates to this thing in the next month Ceton can have it back and refund me my money!

There is a plugin that is installed on the WMC host PC and is then accessed via the extras menu on the extender. In there you can set the default FW setting between stable and beta. Not all releases are available to all echo's. there are some titled Omega which are only available to a limited few.

http://cetoncorp.com/echo-settings-plugin/




Edit:link to plugin

I actually reviewed the HDHR PRIME. I suggest that you read my review of the Echo before making assumptions.

That said, there is no need for attacks of any kind. Period. If you're unhappy, express your issues like a civilized adult otherwise expect to be called out for bad behavior.

No beta for me. Still in the 1228 f/w here.

Actually it did, but it appears that the post was removed.

Screenshot from my inbox:


So now that you know the context, can you see how it is important?

Appearances can be deceiving, especially when missing the context.

OK. Not sure if I agree, but probably not material to the issue at hand.

I'd argue that the value in the content is what makes a site worthwhile, not the people who read it (isn't that why they read it?). That said, I struggle to find the point behind this. What does MR have to do with angry people saying rude things here?

You don't think feature set plays a role in setting context? If you're unhappy because the Echo doesn't play TV, that's valid. If you're unhappy because it doesn't play VIDEO_TS or BDMV, it's not. Nothing is binary at a useful level, nuance is important in truly understanding anything reasonably complex. Setting proper context helps process the nuance to reach valid conclusions; in this case are the expectations reasonable.

Sure, you can feel however you want about something and that is valid to you. The validity of your feelings in a larger setting is dependent on the shared values and expectations of the broader context. So if they are unreasonable, they will be dismissed as such because they are valueless outside of the limited context that created them.

I think that is a valid concern (well the last part anyway). Weigh your options and make a decision about what the right course of action is that maximizes the value to you. We don't need to be involved unless you need help doing that.

Complain away, as long as it's valid and civil I don't have a problem with it. Just follow Wheaton's Law when in doubt.

Just curious, why can't you use your main HTPC since it uses network drives?

As I have said before I have a role for at least one pure WME. If the latest xBoxes are close to 20 watt devices than I may be good with that. At least we know they are solid WMEs.

So one more data point.

I bought an echo about a week ago, after following this thread (and those on the green button) so I thought I knew what I was getting into. But given that I was just going to use it for basic "plain vanilla" extender duties (watch live TV, watch shows that were recorded), I figured it would work reasonably well. As of right now, I am sadly disappointed and frustrated (and it takes a lot, given my day job is a hardware/software test architect, so I am used to working on buggy products).

Out of the box it took two tries to boot (first time hung on he ceton splash, not waiting for network). Once it booted it seemed to connect OK and updated itself to the 2012.1219.1030 FW, so I figured the startup was a fluke. As I started to use it to navigate through WMC it crashed. And this has repeated multiple times. Some times while trying to watch a show, other times while just sitting doing nothing. I then tried to access the setup plugin. It won't load, I get an "Invalid Application" error. Then I tried to watch content that has DRM enabled (TV channels with the copy once flag set and recordings of same), and I get an "insufficient privileges" error (the content plays fine on the host WMC computer). This was not a good introduction. Needless to say as a test engineer, I tried a LOT of variations to get this to work to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Of course I did open a ticket. My experience there has been what I would rate a C+. I wrote up the problem above, and in 24 hours got back a nice detailed response of what they wanted me to do. Obviously they want me to send in a diagnostic report (from the settings plugin) but the first step is they wanted me to update to the beta firmware, which given what is being discussed here, I wasn't sure I wanted to do, but I figured maybe that the diagnostic reporting wasn't in the firmware level I was on. However, all of this is moot, as the only way to do it (as outlined in their instructions) is to go into the settings plugin, which I had clearly stated was broken! (yes I've followed the steps for installing it correctly, and tried uninstalling and re-installing). So I updated the ticket reminding them of this fact. I wait another 24 hours for a response. Good news, they tell me I can just point my web browser to the echo and do the same thing (that was easier than what I was expecting, since I figured recovery was going to be the next suggestion). Unfortunately, the echo won't respond to the http requests either. (pings work, and it will serve up non-protected content from WMC so network connectivity is not an issue). So I quickly updated the ticket with this info (about 1.5 hours after their last update), but no response so far. I hope I don't have to wait another 24 hours for the next step.

If this product were still in beta, all of this would be fine, but as a product that has been released for general availability, I think they did it WAY too early.

Andy, I don't know why it is your self-appointed mission to be Emissary and Chief for the Echo to an increasing unhappy and unruly rabble here. People are understatedly frsustrated and answers from Ceton are not forthcoming. Your little dutch boy damn holding maybe admirable in your own eyes but Ceton needs to get straight with the community in a totally frank and candid way or we can only suspect that there is a disaster brewing. I have worked inside a large CE as a product service manager. A CE of unlimited resources and when the silence gets profound the lawyers are circling wagons. I will never forget all the games that went on over notebook batteries and especially main board capacitiors, I saw the whole behind the scene thing when hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of main boards needed replacing. The tap dancing inside was like watching Cabaret or Richard Gere in the trial scene in Chicago.

I just thought I would add how many times Drive Makers and my employer shuffled out one firmware patch after another hoping against hope they would not have to replace a zillion hard drives. These drives were from every OEM.. Customers sometimes waited a year before the negotiations between the drive manufacturer resolved the warrany liability, meanwhile customers data was wiped out at fantastical rates. So having been inside I found that only pressure really got action. When Exxon would say we have a hundred thousand desktops pull them out tomorrow..... the suits and lawyers had solutions for us to imprlement.
Edited by gtgray - 1/15/13 at 9:31pm

You seem to have misunderstood my post. The units released with the new mainboard (most all of 2012 models) use 20 watts less as I understand it. AnandTech did test the original slim showing it to use .6W when off, 70W at idle, and 82.7-90.4 while playing games ranging from Rockband 2 to Red Dead Redemption.

Should anyone have a new Xbox 360 Slim with this mainboard, I would like to know how much power it is using while playing live t.v. and video playback. I am not exactly sure how to tell the difference in the models but from what I have read the newer models have a smaller power supply 9.6x amps or so and have a matte finish on the case with a matching smaller 9.6x amps listed on the case sticker. You can PM me if you want since this is the Echo thread. Sorry for the off topic bits.
Edited by Haba - 1/15/13 at 9:58pm

Gtgray, you need to lighten up. Sorry you worked for some big, bad, corporate techno nasties who treated clients and you poorly. I'm guessing your employ ended rather poorly based on the bad ju-ju you still harbor. Do not assume that the dudes at Ceton are the same. Do not assume they're different but clearly based on your comments it is obvious you find them the same. As far as I can pertain, the Echo, after the first major fix does do what it is sold to do.

Everyone chill. If you own it and hate it, return it. If it works keep it. If you want future Android based capacity.....l wait to buy it.

Rodney King once said, "can't we all just get along". Oops, dead guy, guess not.

Ummm,.. that IS the beta they just pushed out. I had hopes they planned to take us beyond the buggy firmware to something that would play videos properly.

Your assumptions are just that assumptions. Your assumptions about my career is clearly out of line and wrong. If you want to get personal we can do that.

I am telling you how the real world wokrs. Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer... they are all in the same boat because they all have the same component suppliers. Sony made a ton of bad notebook batteries, cost Dell and others millions and millions. Seagate, WD, all the drive makers tried to gloss things over with patches, rarely worked, maybe delayed the inevitable. If Ceton's supplier has them between the rock and the hard place and they are under non-dislosure solutions will not be quickly forthcoming and acceptance of repsonsibility and warranty costs will be disputed. I have seen it hundreds of times over a very long career in service.

I have seen thousands of identical displays go out, fail and get replaced with displays that exhibited exactly the same failure modes. I worked in both Austin and Houston so I know wherefore I speak. Nearly 25 years in that business. It did not matter whether they were LG, Samsung or an other ODM. The way these things would go is that the affected serial number ranges would start out small and over the course of a year or more would expand 20 fold. For 3 years I ran a team that worked closely with product engineering and I know it sometimes took a year to fix a problem.. Customer Support folks were directed how to non-respond and delay. Even 3rd and 4th tier support teams would not necessarily know what was going on becaue legal had their hold on it in order to keep liability to a minimum. This was and is everyday business at all the big OEMs.

For the little guys like Ceton a clusterf### with a chipset vendor can doom a product line, or even sink the company. If the answer is that all the Echos need to have the SOC swapped it will be very dicey.

Hmm... I've been on that f/w for over 2 weeks now as an omega build. I was hoping for a new f/w that behaved more like the 1214 f/w.

Well this one worked better than the one from 1221 I think it was. At least it works on 720p with AC3 audio but the 1214 f/w worked very, very well in native mode. It would be nice to be able to roll back to that one.

I just upgraded to the latest beta firmware.

720p playback appears to be "just a bit" better. Will watch more tonight.

Still have the issue running "Native" on my Pioneer panels. Set to Native and 720p signals are 4 x 3 on the screen. I had hoped this round of updates would correct that for me! Dang...

I have had the exact same experience. Please let me know if you are able to solve it as I haven't submitted a support request because I was hoping a firmware update would fix things (and update the unit automatically).

Interesting, I was going to add a comment to my posting that I bet just like there are folks that haven't posted "my echo is working fine", there are probably a lot of folks that haven't taken the time to post "my echo is broke", so the assertions going around about quality one way or the other are really hard to validate. Best we can all do is post our factual experiences which might help other users. I'll let you know how my issue works out.

Do you have the same issue of not being able to access the settings plugin? I guess even if that is broke and I new general release (non-beta) of firmware comes out presumably it would auto update, but there is always a chance that the settings issue (for me) is an indication of other issues and mine might not auto update, but that is just speculation on my part. This is why I am pursing the issues through a ticket so I can hopefully get to a more reasonable state.

Yes, I get the "Invalid Application" error and I also cannot load the device's web page in a browser even though I can see it in Windows Explorer as a network media device.

1) I had a feeling you would pick a torch. Thanks for joining the conversation.

2) I would love to see specific instances where I defended Ceton's handling of the Echo lanch or made untrue statements WRT to its capabilities.

3) This is what I wrote in the conclusion of my review: not really consistent with your assertion is it?

I agree with this. Did I say otherwise anywhere?

Hmm, not sure where to go with this... You know that I'm Dutch (the "Van" should have given it away), right?

It would be useful for you to go back and follow the flow of the conversation. Noting that my initial comments were directed towards this post (which has since been removed):


Your desires speak directly to my original point. This is a long term relationship (assuming that you keep the Echo), if you want access to information don't unduly punish the messenger. Do that enough, they will stop delivering information. In general (i.e. not speaking specifically to this situation), if you frame a relationship with hostility, it is a natural consequence that you will be viewed as a hostile party. Looking at the relationship many CE companies have with their customers I think this model applies quite well; they view us (their customers) as a hostile entity and withhold information/insight accordingly.

It is not my perspective that we should stop aggressive outliers from posting inappropriate comments, but defining them as such and encouraging productive feedback is an appropriate response to those statements when they arrive. Again, you (pl) are free to disagree with me, but I will continue to point out the intrinsic error of that belief should you (pl) feel the need to share it publicly.

TBC, I meant my response to "dabretty" as a statement of fact. I'm sure you have also been around long enough to have seen the small-OEM-stops-talking-because-of-abusive-commenters cycle many times as well. It's clearly OK to have opinions and express them, if they are fair and accurate there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - sometimes the truth hurts. There are ways to deliver negative feedback in a productive manner and there is the opposite; which is what started this discussion.

Great ramble. Thanks for sharing.