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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 194  

post #5791 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I hate to rain on your guy's parade, but DTCP doesn't really solve anything. We've been selling DTCP-based commercial solutions just because it's more of a standards-based body, rather than Microsoft, but it doesn't really do anything that wasn't doable with WMDRM. DTCP is slightly interesting because there are existing commercial devices (PS3, some TVs) which have support for it, but the UI is pretty much useless - you get no guide, no recordings, and poor channel navigation. Until that changes, I don't see it going anywhere.

Silicon Dust is trying to take it somewhere.. Just as ceton is trying to take the echo somewhere..

CEC-HDMI control of my TV would be nice so I can just use the WMC remote in my kitchen application and not fumble around for a remote.. I suppose I could program the H 880 though.. Hoping CEC-HDMI comes along sooner than later.

biggrin.gif
post #5792 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Silicon Dust is trying to take it somewhere.. Just as ceton is trying to take the echo somewhere..

CEC-HDMI control of my TV would be nice so I can just use the WMC remote in my kitchen application and not fumble around for a remote.. I suppose I could program the H 880 though.. Hoping CEC-HDMI comes along sooner than later.

biggrin.gif

I wish them the best of luck - we already sell commercial InfiniTVs with DTCP support, but as of now there is essentially no advantage for DTCP OCURs in the consumer space (over WMDRM)
post #5793 of 7721
I understand what you are saying. It is very limited right now but who knows what they'll do with it..

Back to the echo..

What is the state of the echo?

Full mkv playback?
android?
HDMI-CEC?
netflix/amazon/hulu?
post #5794 of 7721
Yes, how about another State of the Echo, Eric?
post #5795 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I hate to rain on your guy's parade, but DTCP doesn't really solve anything. We've been selling DTCP-based commercial solutions just because it's more of a standards-based body, rather than Microsoft, but it doesn't really do anything that wasn't doable with WMDRM. DTCP is slightly interesting because there are existing commercial devices (PS3, some TVs) which have support for it, but the UI is pretty much useless - you get no guide, no recordings, and poor channel navigation. Until that changes, I don't see it going anywhere.

DTCP and DLNA are completely separate, right? DTCP shouldn't have an UI. The DLNA interface is quite limited, although in practice I think you'd expect to see apps that run on Rokus and AppleTVs that use DTCP+DLNA as just the transmission method for the video content. Assuming the platforms provided the APIs to do it... I could imagine a company going that way, but like you I don't really see it opening doors that weren't weren't possible with WMDRM/PlayReady.

Let me "third" what Sammy and dabretty said about another State of the Echo update. I know you didn't want to steal the show from the President, but with that over you're all clear. That last one said there would be an update in "a few weeks," and that was almost two months ago.
post #5796 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabretty View Post

Yes, how about another State of the Echo, Eric?
^ This. ^
post #5797 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I wish them the best of luck - we already sell commercial InfiniTVs with DTCP support, but as of now there is essentially no advantage for DTCP OCURs in the consumer space (over WMDRM)

So DTCP is something that requires new hardware entirely, with no way of just implementing in a firmware update?
post #5798 of 7721
The freescale chip incorporates DTCP from what I've read about it.

I don't think ceton plans to do anything with that, though.
post #5799 of 7721
No, I think the major roadblock is licensing cost (including the certification cost). It makes sense to offer on commercial product where profit margin is high.
post #5800 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I think we're talking past each other. If I understand the DTCP-IP licensing situation, you're right. Any two certified DTCP-IP implementations should be able to talk to each other. But how different is that from how PlayReady works? I guess there isn't the same notion of pairing devices, but I'm not sure how much that matters in practice. So, I still don't see how that helps that much with a DVR system without figuring out how the DRM is going to work for stored content.

I think we are, But PlayReady only implements DRM to the local HD, DTCP allows the file to be moved off of the originating system. Pretty big differance.
Quote:
I guess I don't fully understand what major problem with CableCard DTCP solves. You were never locked-in to WMC, its just that's the only thing that implemented DRM. DTCP isn't going to make the DVR hardware noticeably cheaper, since you still need a CableCard-certified OCUR device. In practice it isn't going to make the "extenders" that much cheaper, because I don't think very many TVs out there are going to support what they'd need to support. I guess you get the advantage of not needing to mess with CableCard directly, but I doubt that's really any harder than making a good DVR system.

As mentioned above, DTCP-IP allows the DRM'd file to be relocated at some point in time. A lose inturitation might be from a local android box to a NAS or a qualified Network storage device. So any device qualified by the DTCP certificate process could view these files. That is what puts us some where between WMC and SageTv. For me money is not the issue here, it would be a one time expense for the backbone system if designed corectly. Individual players (extenders) are a differant issue, but I don't think we would be locked into one company for it either.
Quote:
By the way, the certificates are sort of in the weeds of how DTCP is implemented. DTCP creates a mutually-authenticated encrypted session between the devices, using cryptographic mechanisms not all that different from TLS. It uses different algorithms and generally works a little differently, but at a high-level its not hugely different. The certificates identify and authenticate the device as a DTCP-compliant device. Each device has a public/private key key pair that's used in the device handshake to sign a random challenge to authenticate itself to the other party.

Could not agree with you more. But you have to admit there is a huge potential here.
post #5801 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

DTCP and DLNA are completely separate, right? DTCP shouldn't have an UI. The DLNA interface is quite limited, although in practice I think you'd expect to see apps that run on Rokus and AppleTVs that use DTCP+DLNA as just the transmission method for the video content. Assuming the platforms provided the APIs to do it... I could imagine a company going that way, but like you I don't really see it opening doors that weren't weren't possible with WMDRM/PlayReady.

While they are completely separate in theory, they are somewhat tied together in practice. You're right that I could have worded my post better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcturkey View Post

So DTCP is something that requires new hardware entirely, with no way of just implementing in a firmware update?
I didn't say that

Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

I think we are, But PlayReady only implements DRM to the local HD, DTCP allows the file to be moved off of the originating system. Pretty big differance.
As mentioned above, DTCP-IP allows the DRM'd file to be relocated at some point in time. A lose inturitation might be from a local android box to a NAS or a qualified Network storage device. So any device qualified by the DTCP certificate process could view these files. That is what puts us some where between WMC and SageTv. For me money is not the issue here, it would be a one time expense for the backbone system if designed corectly. Individual players (extenders) are a differant issue, but I don't think we would be locked into one company for it either.
Could not agree with you more. But you have to admit there is a huge potential here.

DTCP has the ability to move files - so does PlayReady. As far as I know, there is no requirement that devices implement this functionality - in other words, just getting DTCP support doesn't mean you can move your protected content - it would have to be implemented by your recording software. I agree if fully implemented it could be quite compelling, but there's nothing to force that - you will likely end up with something similar to what we have now with PlayReady/WMDRM
post #5802 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabretty View Post

Yes, how about another State of the Echo, Eric?

Yeah, that'd be very nice...however, I think they've adopted a silence philosophy. TGB is very quiet too...
post #5803 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

I think we are, But PlayReady only implements DRM to the local HD, DTCP allows the file to be moved off of the originating system. Pretty big differance.

WMDRM/Playready covers transmission, doesn't it? I thought it covered content protection between the OCUR device and the computer, and between the computer and the extender. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems to support some heavily-controlled "movement" of the content to other devices.
post #5804 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

Yeah, that'd be very nice...however, I think they've adopted a silence philosophy. TGB is very quiet too...

+1 I still think they are trying to fly under the radar to get past the extended return date and go from there.
post #5805 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

WMDRM/Playready covers transmission, doesn't it? I thought it covered content protection between the OCUR device and the computer, and between the computer and the extender. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems to support some heavily-controlled "movement" of the content to other devices.
Yes. The DRI spec allows PlayReady to be used as a hand off DRM from the tuner device to the computer. PlayReady is also then used to transfer from the PC to extenders. DTCP-IP is not needed for communicating between the tuner and a PC application and only adds to (doubles) the licensing costs for a PC application.
post #5806 of 7721
We need a new f/w as this is at least the third time this DCTP-IP and PlayReady WMDRM discussion has come up in this thread..
post #5807 of 7721
.. Or a new State of the Echo from ceton.. that would be nice. We'd love to talk about that!
post #5808 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by davefre99 View Post

+1 I still think they are trying to fly under the radar to get past the extended return date and go from there.

If this is how they are going to play it I think they can expect a lot of returned product.
post #5809 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

WMDRM/Playready covers transmission, doesn't it? I thought it covered content protection between the OCUR device and the computer, and between the computer and the extender. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems to support some heavily-controlled "movement" of the content to other devices.

I totaly agree with that statement. But the physical location of where the file resides is in its original recorded location/device. DTCP alows the phyisical location of the file to be moved of of the original recording device. I think that is a big differance. Along with the fact that M$ may not be the only player is maybe even bigger. If no one takes this to the next level it will remain where it is, bound to DNLA players with crappy interfaces and virtually no DVR functionality. Like you said earlier, still very down in the weeds for most of what this is about.

Erik you stated PlayReady files can be moved, I never read that. So the means M$ just didn't implement that? Or PlayReady doesn't allow that? To my knowladge M$ is the only Company to even use PlayReady.

A company like Ceton could actually change that if they were so inclined to make a new DVR system. They could just reinvent the Q, just not WMC based. Seems like the licesing and certification is already in place. It would just take a little out of the box thinking. Keep it embedded and rework the Echo to fit the new paradigm. Probably fix most of what can't be done now because of the WMx limitations. JMO.
post #5810 of 7721
recorded files can be moved and resides anywhere as long as it is played back from the recording PC. There is never such limitation as you stated. In fact, WHS plugin even automates move recorded shows to server storage.
post #5811 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

I hate to rain on your guy's parade, but DTCP doesn't really solve anything. We've been selling DTCP-based commercial solutions just because it's more of a standards-based body, rather than Microsoft, but it doesn't really do anything that wasn't doable with WMDRM. DTCP is slightly interesting because there are existing commercial devices (PS3, some TVs) which have support for it, but the UI is pretty much useless - you get no guide, no recordings, and poor channel navigation. Until that changes, I don't see it going anywhere.

Comes across as a diss toward Silicondust suggesting their Project Connect is going nowhere...
post #5812 of 7721
What happened to the Android Christmas present? December 2013?
post #5813 of 7721
So is anyone having problems with fast forward/rewind in the last two beta firmware releases? (2013.129.1538 and 2013.206.1558). I had finally jumped from the mid December stable firmware to these betas, and both have a problem with fast forward/rewind, while the December version worked. What happens is when you press the FF or RW, it starts to go into that mode, but then drops out and back into play EXCEPT that the status bar continues to move across the screen. Hitting play or pause does not change the movement of the bar. Very frustrating, since it was working, but I haven't seen anyone post this issue. The skip forward back is working (for the most part, I don't always get the preview bubble).
post #5814 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post


Here's a video of the playback of Malta via the echo on my 19" TV. The rainbow effect at the end is in the way my phone picked up the image but is not seen on the screen.


Try that with the Echo set to "native"
post #5815 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

recorded files can be moved and resides anywhere as long as it is played back from the recording PC. There is never such limitation as you stated. In fact, WHS plugin even automates move recorded shows to server storage.

Ok, bad choice of words. And yes MCE buddy can move files around, but can only be played fron the original recording device. The white paper for DTCP implies you can move DTCP files and play on another PC/Device, at least it looks that way, that is what I was trying to imply. Unless that implies only an extender?
post #5816 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roginator View Post

Try that with the Echo set to "native"

It is set to "Native".
post #5817 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportwagon View Post

So is anyone having problems with fast forward/rewind in the last two beta firmware releases? (2013.129.1538 and 2013.206.1558). I had finally jumped from the mid December stable firmware to these betas, and both have a problem with fast forward/rewind, while the December version worked. What happens is when you press the FF or RW, it starts to go into that mode, but then drops out and back into play EXCEPT that the status bar continues to move across the screen. Hitting play or pause does not change the movement of the bar. Very frustrating, since it was working, but I haven't seen anyone post this issue. The skip forward back is working (for the most part, I don't always get the preview bubble).

There were issues with Skip >| and |< in the 129 f/w that were fixed in the 206 f/w. You are the first one reporting this. You might want to open a ticket with ceton.
post #5818 of 7721
I want to see another State of the Echo post as well. We need some info before the extended return date. Otherwise, I bet Ceton will be getting many Echos sent back. Answering other posts and completely ignorining these requests is not great customer service Eric.
post #5819 of 7721
To me, it feels that Ceton is in over their head with this product. I don't think they expected the backlash they got when they dropped the "Q". That coupled with a bug riddled product at release has them reeling. I have a feeling we aren't seeing anymore "State of the Echo" as it is basically done other than Android developement.

Newegg has the Echo on sale right now with a promo code: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815706003&Tpk=ceton%20echo

Still not enough to really draw the sales out but I think Newegg is seeing the writing on the wall. This product needs to be sub-$99 as it stands now.
post #5820 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

To me, it feels that Ceton is in over their head with this product. I don't think they expected the backlash they got when they dropped the "Q". That coupled with a bug riddled product at release has them reeling. I have a feeling we aren't seeing anymore "State of the Echo" as it is basically done other than Android developement.

Newegg has the Echo on sale right now with a promo code: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815706003&Tpk=ceton%20echo

Still not enough to really draw the sales out but I think Newegg is seeing the writing on the wall. This product needs to be sub-$99 as it stands now.

Kinda funny the promo code is "FNSHDGOOD4"....
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