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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 203  

post #6061 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateASH View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Your not serious are you eek.gif . I supposed the missing DTS support they touted and announced, which has yet to be delivered, was a screwing by DTS? Is Ceton accountable for any of the undelivered scope in your eyes?

You realize that Microsoft came out to the public after Win8 was released and then told everyone, "Oh, by the way, the only extender that will be supported on Windows 8 will be the XBox 360. What, like you're surprised?" While Ceton was communicating, they seemed just as surprised as everyone else, jumped on it pretty quickly, and claimed to be working with MS to make it work. Later, they came out and said (in a very diplomatic way) that Microsoft had restricted extender functionality to the 360. The way it was stated seemed like a thinly veiled, "Sorry, everyone. We tried." I really feel like people need to cut them some slack here and do some research on the history of this subject before trying to light up Ceton on this one.

Incorrect! this was widely discussed in the Linksys and HP forums when folks realized that the dma/HP extenders stopped working with Windows 8 RTM (sometime in August). So IMO the notion that there was any surprise last minute information is incorrect. I even recall Linksys stating to those that inquired in August that the DMA's would not function with 8. This puts the information flow at least 3 months ahead of the echo beta.

Here is a thread discussing it -->http://homecommunity.cisco.com/t5/Game-and-Media-Adapters/DMA2100-amp-DMA-2200-Windows-8/td-p/526716

Someone even suggests using the echo...


the RTM was made available to developers way ahead of this..
post #6062 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariob33 View Post

Incorrect! this was widely discussed in the Linksys and HP forums when folks realized that the dma/HP extenders stopped working with Windows 8 RTM (sometime in August). So IMO the notion that there was any surprise last minute information is incorrect. I even recall Linksys stating to those that inquired in August that the DMA's would not function with 8. This puts the information flow at least 3 months ahead of the echo beta.

Here is a thread discussing it -->http://homecommunity.cisco.com/t5/Game-and-Media-Adapters/DMA2100-amp-DMA-2200-Windows-8/td-p/526716

Someone even suggests using the echo...


the RTM was made available to developers way ahead of this..

None of this was directly from a company that was currently and directly supporting and updating an extender at a time where many thought that all that would be required was a firmware update. These are consumers just like us throwing around experiences and speculation at a time before Windows 8 was released and there was no extender actively supplied to the market outside of the 360.
post #6063 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateASH View Post

None of this was directly from a company that was currently and directly supporting and updating an extender at a time where many thought that all that would be required was a firmware update. These are consumers just like us throwing around experiences and speculation at a time before Windows 8 was released and there was no extender actively supplied to the market outside of the 360.

You're right in that none of that info came directly from Microsoft, but going back to the point I made earlier...

Ceton should have known better.

There should have been some communication between Ceton and MS before Ceton proceded, and certainly before they started releasing compatibility specs.

If MS was mum on the whole thing then Ceton should have realized something was wrong and pushed MS to confirm (in writing) compatibility.

IF MS said it was compatible then they should have gotten it in writing.

If MS said it wasn't compatible then Ceton should have been more up front with their user base.

But in light of how much information was out there even prior to the Echo beta, Ceton certainly can't claim that they just thought "it would work" as that clearly wasn't the case. By that point Ceton should have known that additional development would need to be done and without knowing what was necessary, they shouldn't have listed it as a spec for the system. There is a difference between a wishlist and a spec list. Ceton released a wishlist.
post #6064 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Actually I plan (planned?) on putting one in the "loft area where there's a 32" with a decent AVR and smaller speakers than the HT for use by guests that may want to watch something else I need a bit more out of it in the playback of locally stored media first though.

I guess one of the reason you and I have totally different assesments of what is good quality video output is that for all practical purposes your screens are for the most part what I would consider desktop display size. I personally consider a 40" display desktop sized. I used a 37" at my desk and would prefer 40 or 42" As for home theater displays. I have an 82", a 58" and a 92". The displays you are using look good with crappy SD video unless you are "nose to the glass" A 4:3 36" is a bigger display than a 32" 16x9 and not much different than a 40".

I now understand why you are so non-critical of video quality. I have properly calibrated displays that are immersive in nature and make sure they get an excellent source. Believeme if you put a crap source up on a 92" it looks like crap. The Sage HD 300 looks lovely on a home theater sized display, especially through a Radiance or DVDO DUO.My XP280n through my DUO looks great on my 58,82 and 92" displays. At some point in the future I expect to use a 100 inch plus display in my main room. squishy deinterlacing ain't going to cut it.

I gave up on anythng more than TV with the Echo but it is new device and should have state of the are video. Why settle for crap?
Edited by gtgray - 2/21/13 at 12:32am
post #6065 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I guess one of the reason you and I have totally different assesments of what is good quality video output is that for all practical purposes your screens are for the most part what I would consider desktop display size. I personally consider a 40" display desktop sized. I used a 37" at my desk and would prefer 40 or 42" As for home theater displays. I have an 82", a 58" and a 92". The displays you are using look good with crappy SD video unless you are "nose to the glass" A 4:3 36" is a bigger display than a 32" 16x9 and not much different than a 40".

I now understand why you are so non-critical of video quality. I have properly calibrated displays that are immersive in nature and make sure they get an excellent source. Believeme if you put a crap source up on a 92" it looks like crap. The Sage HD 300 looks lovely on a home theater sized display, especially through a Radiance or DVDO DUO.My XP280n through my DUO looks great on my 58,82 and 92" displays. At some point in the future I expect to use a 100 inch plus display in my main room. squishy deinterlacing ain't going to cut it.

I gave up on anything more than TV with the Echo but it is new device and should have state of the are video. Why settle for crap?

Trust me; If I could afford an 92" TV right now I'd have one. The 40" is 5 years old and it cost nearly as much as an 92" display does now and so did the 32" one from 2003. Replacement with a larger display is in the time period that I usually replace but it isn't in the finances right now.
post #6066 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

Who would that be? Nobody else is making one other than MS with the Xbox and ceton can't ever hope to compete with the likes of MS anyhow.

How the hell should I know? We didn't know Ceton was working on anything either until they told us about it.

If I had to venture a guess I would say the next Xbox will do everything that we have been asking for though and then the Echo will be tits up real quick...
post #6067 of 7721
given the direction ms is heading, I seriously doubt next xbox even come with extender function at all.
post #6068 of 7721
Agreed - there's every likelihood that the Xbox 360 will be the last extender sold for WMC, given that the Echo is bombing very quickly.
post #6069 of 7721
The last couple of f/w I have had an issue where the Echo locks up during fast forwarding. No response to any input except power button. I even had to pull the power plug last night because the power button didn't actually reset it. Has happened twice now, no impact on host PC...
post #6070 of 7721
What were you playing at the time this happened?
post #6071 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

What were you playing at the time this happened?

Recorded HDTV.

Edit: 99% of the time it is fine, just every now and then (twice in about a week) it has locked up
post #6072 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

Recorded HDTV.

Edit: 99% of the time it is fine, just every now and then (twice in about a week) it has locked up

I had some random reboots under f/w 206. Setting the video to 720p as opposed to Native cleared it up. I haven't seen it return under f/w 211 with it set to Native.
post #6073 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Agreed - there's every likelihood that the Xbox 360 will be the last extender sold for WMC, given that the Echo is bombing very quickly.

I think it is very plausible that the new XBOX coming this fall may not support Media Center. But I do not think it has anything to do with the Echo. My position has always been that Microsoft wants Media Center gone. For all purposes within Microsoft it already is. I see Microsoft using the nest XBOX as a DVR combined with all the XBOX Live content including Subscriptions to Packages similar to what you will get from Cable and Satellite. I think they will have cloud storage for your own files , hopefully allow you to access your content on your home network and what was recorded on one Xbox could be played on another in your home.. Technically there would be no need for Media Center under this scenario. Microsoft would no longer need to spend any money on Media Center and they would be getting paid for your programming. I think Windows 8 will be the last operating system to have Media Center available. All this programming form Microsoft will certainly come at a significant price. The only upside would be no equipment rental because you own it.

I do not have Cable or Satellite. I use Media Center with 5 XBOX 360 units for over the air programming, Amazon Prime, Playon and other things. I have a 40TB server filled with Blu-Ray .iso files which are played using a Home Theater PC and a Popcorn Hour C-200. Utilizing the internet I can stream just about any content I would like to any room in my home without the need for cable and satellite. Once Microsoft shuts the guide in Media Center I am screwed and at that point I will have to make changes that obviously will cost me.
post #6074 of 7721
If they are selling WMC for $100 a pop I think they'll support the guide for the life of Win8 but who knows?
post #6075 of 7721
WMC is $10 a pop. The $100 is for the upgrade from Core to Win8 Pro which is needed for the WMC addon.
post #6076 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

If I had to venture a guess I would say the next Xbox will do everything that we have been asking for though and then the Echo will be tits up real quick...

I would be amazed if the new Xbox works as a WMC extender. Microsoft has basically abandoned WMC at this point. They stopped developing WMC a long time ago, disbanded the team, shut down the extender program, and stopped including it in Windows. Given that, why would they support a dead platform with a new console that's going to have a lifespan of 8+ years? MS is certainly interested in providing video content to its customers, but the fact that they stopped development of WMC shows that they're doubling-down on streaming content. That makes perfect sense from their perspective, since they can get on-going revenue that way.
post #6077 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

WMC is $10 a pop. The $100 is for the upgrade from Core to Win8 Pro which is needed for the WMC addon.

That would make it $110 for the Pro and WMC upgrade or $100 for the WMC upgrade to the standard version of Win8, right?
post #6078 of 7721
Upgrade Win8 Pro -> Win8 Pro + WMC = $ 9.99
Upgrade Win8 Core/Standard -> Win8 Pro Pack (Pro + WMC) = $ 99.99

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/feature-packs
post #6079 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

If they are selling WMC for $100 a pop I think they'll support the guide for the life of Win8 but who knows?

Particularly now that WMC is an add-on, as opposed to being part of the OS, I think Microsoft can very easily make the case that it falls under the "Consumer and Multimedia Products" category from a support perspective.

From their Support Lifecycle Policy FAQ, that means:
Microsoft will offer Mainstream Support for either a minimum of 5 years from the date of a product’s general availability, or for 2 years after the successor product (N+1) is released, whichever is longer. Extended Support is not offered for Consumer and Multimedia products. Products that release new versions annually, such as Microsoft Money, Microsoft Encarta, Microsoft Picture It!, and Microsoft Streets & Trips, will receive a minimum of 3 years of Mainstream Support from the product's date of availability. Most products will also receive at least 8 years of online self-help support. Microsoft Xbox games are currently not included in the Support Lifecycle policy.


I think they'll keep the guide data going for 5 years. That also lines up with how long Windows 8 will have mainstream support.
post #6080 of 7721
Five years is plenty of time. I'll recoup my investment and then some in five years so long as the CableCo's don't hold sway over the FCC's backing of CableCARD device users in the mean time. I believe in less than five years there will be a different solution going forward on content delivery for sure.
post #6081 of 7721
I agree five years is plenty of time to make it worthwhile, particularly for anyone that already has a server and tuners. I don't think the Echo will be profitable as an extender that long, though. I figure Ceton's market for the Echo right not is just people currently using Xbox360s as extenders (and perhaps the few people still using the old extenders). Once they work out the bugs they'll sell an Echo to everyone that is ever going to want one in short order. In particular, I don't think they'll be bringing in a non-trivial number of new users to WMC.

That's why I imagine that Ceton has bigger plans for the Echo with Android than what they've been saying. Their current consumer business is currently headed down a dead-end. I have no idea how profitable their hotel and hospitality line is doing, but I could imagine it doing OK. As long as that's paying for most of their CableCard-related costs I imagine they can keep selling the infiniTV line, although even now I would think sales would be pretty slow. So, at least on the consumer side of things, I think the Echo is Ceton's only hope for survival.
post #6082 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomnusss View Post

I think it is very plausible that the new XBOX coming this fall may not support Media Center. But I do not think it has anything to do with the Echo.

Yeah I didn't mean that the Xbox being possibly the last extender sold was because MS cared about the issues with the Echo, but because it will be the only one left on the market if the Echo is discontinued due to the problems and returns (plus the lack of Win8 support).

I will be surprised if the new Xbox extends WMC given everything MS has done to kill it off.
post #6083 of 7721
I don't think the return rate on the Echo is going to be high enough to be troubling for Ceton. I suspect it will unusually high, but that's to be expected. I suspect the vast majority of Echo owners are relatively happy. Most of them were probably WMC and Xbox users before, and probably weren't looking for anything beyond TV playback. That's still not perfect, and it sounds like there are some stability problems (I personally didn't notice any), but I suspect most people will stick with it, trusting that there will be further improvements to that functionality.

Hopefully the return rate is just high enough to get their attention and push them to get their act together (if not on improvements to the functionality, then at least on improvements with their communication), but not so high to create a problematic financial situation for them. I want Ceton to have the resources and time necessary to get the Echo to live up to its potential.
post #6084 of 7721
I just bought an Echo, even with all of the complaining I see on the forums. Normally, I'm smarter than this, but if I don't like it, I can throw it on my piles of Betamax VCRs, HDDVD players, etc. haha

T o my surprise, it is exceeding my low expectations. All I want is a low-power device than can play my HDHomerun tuners with WMC, and this thing is working very well so far with no network hiccups, no pixelation, and decent enough menu navigation performance. I put it down in the livingroom, set up iRule, and even my wife does not notice any difference other than the TV takes about 20 seconds longer to display content from power-up, and she can live with that. She normally uses the WMC directly, but I'm trying to keep that free so I can use it when I want (It's on a CAT6 HDMI distribution matrix).

I've not tried any MKVs or other local content, but it plays recorded 1080i just fine wether it's stored on the bootcamped mini serving as WMC, or my Synology DS1812+ NAS.

A perfect device, no, but it does what I bought it for so far.
post #6085 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I would be amazed if the new Xbox works as a WMC extender. Microsoft has basically abandoned WMC at this point. They stopped developing WMC a long time ago, disbanded the team, shut down the extender program, and stopped including it in Windows. Given that, why would they support a dead platform with a new console that's going to have a lifespan of 8+ years? MS is certainly interested in providing video content to its customers, but the fact that they stopped development of WMC shows that they're doubling-down on streaming content. That makes perfect sense from their perspective, since they can get on-going revenue that way.

Whatever it is that Microsoft wants to call it I would be dollars to donuts that the new Xbox 360 will have some type of DVR functionality coupled with the ability to playback local media. We really don't care if its WMC or some new program so long as it works...
post #6086 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I would be amazed if the new Xbox works as a WMC extender. Microsoft has basically abandoned WMC at this point. They stopped developing WMC a long time ago, disbanded the team, shut down the extender program, and stopped including it in Windows. Given that, why would they support a dead platform with a new console that's going to have a lifespan of 8+ years? MS is certainly interested in providing video content to its customers, but the fact that they stopped development of WMC shows that they're doubling-down on streaming content. That makes perfect sense from their perspective, since they can get on-going revenue that way.

They could easily get a revenue stream from WMC EPG data if they really wanted to do that but the effort to do that just isn't worth it I think especially since they apparently have nobody permanently assigned to working on WMC right now.
post #6087 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

Whatever it is that Microsoft wants to call it I would be dollars to donuts that the new Xbox 360 will have some type of DVR functionality coupled with the ability to playback local media. We really don't care if its WMC or some new program so long as it works...
HomeOS?
from cnet article: Microsoft forges ahead with new home-automation OS
"The HomeOS is a "PC-like abstraction" for in-home devices, like lights, TVs, surveillance cameras, gaming consoles, routers, printers, PCs, mobile phones and more. These devices appear to the HomeOS user as peripherals connected to a single PC."
post #6088 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

Whatever it is that Microsoft wants to call it I would be dollars to donuts that the new Xbox 360 will have some type of DVR functionality coupled with the ability to playback local media. We really don't care if its WMC or some new program so long as it works...

I'd be pretty surprised if there's much in the way of local streaming capabilities on the new Xbox. Maybe it will have some limited DLNA support, but I bet that's about it. Basically, more Roku-like (or AppleTV) than Popcorn-Hour-like. There just isn't that many people with local content they want to stream. People, and content providers, are far more interested in streaming services like Netflix or iTunes video rentals.


And yes, I saw the rumors about about the next Xbox having DVR capabilities. I bet they were based on something that was true, but I think it got garbled along the way. I expect to see something more along the lines of IPTV than a local DVR.
post #6089 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggie14 View Post

I'd be pretty surprised if there's much in the way of local streaming capabilities on the new Xbox. Maybe it will have some limited DLNA support, but I bet that's about it. Basically, more Roku-like (or AppleTV) than Popcorn-Hour-like. There just isn't that many people with local content they want to stream. People, and content providers, are far more interested in streaming services like Netflix or iTunes video rentals.

And yes, I saw the rumors about about the next Xbox having DVR capabilities. I bet they were based on something that was true, but I think it got garbled along the way. I expect to see something more along the lines of IPTV than a local DVR.

I would guess it will have DLNA and DTCP-IP, and possibly the ability to record DTCP-IP streams. Cable and Sat are going to be moving to providing Home Media gateways, which is one box that provides cable modem, tuners capabilities and storage. I do not think that the new XBOX will have any ability to connect coax or using a cable card.

xnappo
post #6090 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

I would guess it will have DLNA and DTCP-IP, and possibly the ability to record DTCP-IP streams. Cable and Sat are going to be moving to providing Home Media gateways, which is one box that provides cable modem, tuners capabilities and storage. I do not think that the new XBOX will have any ability to connect coax or using a cable card.

xnappo

Yup.. They won't let us get away with using our own equipment for long. The only reason why Charter lets me use my own DOCIS 3 modem is because I got grandfathered in when the stopped allowing it. They already have modem/VOIP/cable-splitter boxes that they give out to new subscribers. One cable in and then every thing out.. Ethernet, phone and cable.

When they switch to IPTV they'll circumvent the CableCARD rules just like Uverse did.
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