Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 206

Again, RDP isn't used for streaming video. That being said, MKV isn't supported natively in Windows/WMC, so its sort of kludged together with unofficial WMC add-ons. That probably has something to do with some of the problems. But the Echo's problems with MKVs appear to be more an issue of the Echo struggling with H.264 playback.

Anyways, hopefully Ceton can deliver with this Android environment. As I said before, I think this is really the best thing we could have hoped for. I certainly don't regret returning my Echo, since who knows how long its going to take them to get this working (and what its features/limitations will ultimately be), but if it ends up working well I may give WMC+Echo another chance.

Assuming that the hardware as already shipped can deliver the promised new environment, there is still the question of the time frame to delive on these lofty promises. If they do not do that in a timely way they may be competing against a new XBOX TV model that could just retain WMC compatibality with better personal media playback at a lower SRP thanthe current XBOX price.
,
Personally I am sceptical that these early Echo's hardware is really up to snuff. It seems to me that the way they have dribbled out firmware fixes for the traditional WMC enviroment doesn't bode very well for the success of this far more ambitious project.

If one were to extrapolate what Ceton's software developers can produce based on the piddling batch of semi-fixes delivered so far; Windows 8 will be end of life before a properly working full blown Android Win 8 compatible Echo is ever in the hands of customers.

Ceton has laboured mightilty so far and brought forth a mouse. I applaud their continued ambition. As to the device we think they are promising, should they build it, people will come!I I might even buy 5 copies for my mother!

I still think Freescale is to blame for most the Echo's problems/limitations that aren't related to the use of WMC.

I suspect you are right. It maybe that no amount of tinkering will fix these early pieces. I will wait and watch. Again if they ever ship something that is the real deal I will stop my criticism and step up to the plate and buy several. I will put my money where my keyboard is so to speak. Be glad to do it. I am just not going to hold my breath in the mean time.

Based on....?

You'll notice that their blog post focuses almost entirely on UI features. It mentions nothing about improved picture quality, de-interlacing, judder, audio formats, etc. Until they get fundamental audio/video quality on par with existing $50 streamers, who cares what the UI looks like or what content sources it can access? You're probably correct that they chose the wrong SoC for this product but it seems too late in the game to fix that now.

This blog update just seems like a means to keep existing owners from returning these things while they can. I'll stay on the sidelines and hope Ceton can deliver a miracle. If that ever happens, I'll consider buying one in the future. Never buy anything based on promises! I learned that the hard way after owning too many video streamers to remember.

Well, first of all, Ceton basically said so. Who do you think they were talking when they said: "We've been working very closely with a key component partner to help them debug things and expected they would have it resolved by launch but it was not. "

Second of all, the firmware/software involved in hardware-accelerated video playback comes from the SoC manufacturer.


It's certainly not too late. And I'm not necessarily sure they picked the wrong SoC as much as I think they released the Echo before it was ready. Maybe they could have gone with a more tried-and-true Sigma chip, but I think that would have limited what the Echo could do down the line.

Freescale almost certainly can- and probably will- fix the video problems. It's probably just a matter of time.


The cynic in me agrees. The timing of this blog post, after such a long period of silence, really suggests they were trying to hang on to the customers that were part of the beta or pre-ordered the Echo.

My thoughts exactly. Would we have seen a "state of the echo" had the complaints not picked up again here on AVS? Not sure...

Sure, but it was Ceton's choice to change vendors and switch to a brand new chip that wasn't even in full production at the time of the beta. I do agree that improvements to decoding will be coming from Freescale - but it was Ceton who should have evaluated where the chip was in terms of driver support before making that choice.

xnappo

I don't think it is Ceton's choice at all. The original vendor Intel bailed. I'm still waiting on Toshiba Extender built into TV or players using Intel technology for 3 years now and I don't expect it will come in next couple years

???

Well there are other ARM SoCs that are more mature than the SoC in the Echo is all I am saying. As we are early adopters of the Ceton product, Ceton is an early adopter of the Freescale product - so some issues are to be expected.

xnappo

Take a day off to enjoy the best SoCal Skiing conditions in a while and look what you miss. I'm not going to say, "I told you so" but what my first thought was upon reading this is that this is a way forward beyond WMC and opens up sales of the echo to people that do not even know about it or use it because it can be advertised as a streaming box with CableTV capabilities. I also suspect that this may allow for the reincarnation of the Q in a platform totally independent of Windows and possibly a DVR solution that works in any OS but that will be even farther down the road. Ceton has to do something like this if they are to survive as a company going forward.

I don't think that is the case.

Exactly.

Thank you.

Skybolt and I go back a ways on this and to be fair, I think that he understands that I have had issues with mine. I am just more willing to wait it out than others are. Frankly I don't want to hassle with an RMA and paying for shipping back to ceton. As is sometimes said, "It's cheaper to keep her."

Streaming from WMC to a smartphone is already on the road map for the MyMediaCenter app albeit with no delivery date. I'm pretty sure that this and running the echo under android are related and that work is already underway to do this.

Yeah, where's the source if this information? Two confirmations, actually.

er...Sammy...the Echo IS a Media Center extender. Whether it can play other things or not, but it's primary function is an MC extender. And that requires a Media Center PC somewhere. It will not work without one to offer "CableTV capabilities". Now, what Silicondust is doing with DTCP-IP is interesting, however, Ceton has not indicated that the Echo will ever support DTCP-IP and even if it did, there would be no recording system, since it's a Soc based device with no possibility of adding storage capabilities.

So, if Media Center dies, the worst thing as far as the Echo is concerned, is that it continues functioning as a streamer box with a kludged up UI. The absolute worst thing would be that it is unusable. There is no better scenario if Media Center dies.
The Q IS a Media Center PC, whether it uses an embedded version, custom hardware or whatever, in the end it HAS to run WIndows and Media Center to provide what it needs to provide, currently. Now, could the future be different? Sure. But Ceton's ecosystem is built around WIndows/Media Center and Extenders. You can't change an ecosystem easily and without a lot of downsides. Look at what happened to HP and Linksys' extender business... That should be an indication.
Read above.
Agreed.

I'm sorry that you cannot think outside the box because that is the root of innovation.

I think Ceton was right on track with the Q and the Echo. I believe they got screwed by two companies. Microsoft and Freescale. At least Freescale may be able to fix what is lacking. Microsoft will do no such thing. I believe that the combination of the Q and the Echo would have given us what we all wanted. When Microsoft screwed over Ceton,,,, The Q was a no go. That left the Echo in a bad place. I think the direction Ceton is heading is very good and as Sammy2 mentioned could revive the Q as a viable product again. I am 100% pulling for Ceton.

When I got my Beta invite I was ready to go until I saw what the specs were going to be when I got the unit and what they were going to be at launch. I decided to wait and see...
I had gone through a hell of a time with a Popcorn Hour C-200 that is still waiting for promised software from over a year ago and I have had the unit since launch.

What Ceton is doing right now is a huge undertaking and I would definitely call it damage control. But, I think this may be a good thing in the long run. It is forcing Ceton to figure ways to do things without totally using Media Center. Hopefully as it evolves it will be able to be its own stand alone system without Microsoft Media Center and the Q will rise once again.

I am no programmer, but have had programmers working for me. It seems like it always takes two to three time as long as you think to finish something.

You sing this song to the tune of 99 Bottles of beer on the wall.

99 little bugs in the code,
99 bugs in the code,
Fix one bug, compile it again,
101 little bugs in the code,
101 little bugs in the code,
101 bugs in the code,
Fix one bug, compile it again,
103 little bugs in the code,
103 little bugs in the code..................................

And the point is?

The point is that all your comments seem to imply that the the echo (and Q if that comes back) need to stay inside WMC when actually they don't have to at all.

Sure they don't, but then they wouldn't be the "Q" and the "Echo". They will be something else.

We're talking semantics now? It is just a name. If it works as a DVR with a CableCARD tuner in a PC or a stand alone device with a tuner built in and allows a "whole house" solution it does what it supposed to do and doesn't need to be in the WMC realm.

No, we're not talking semantics. What I was trying to say was, sure they could go in a different direction, however what effect that would have on existing devices/customers is a different story. Now, since the Q never saw the light of day, it can of course go in any direction it chooses, but the Echo has been sold to end users with certain specifications and functionality.

Let's assume the Q goes in a whole different direction. Will the Echo need new hardware/firmware to support that direction? Well, we don't know. However, the Echo is a Media Center extender among other things, and you don't need a Q for that, a regular Media Center PC will suffice. If they change directions, an Echo should still be usable as a Media Center extender WITH Windows Media Center (not whatever direction the Q may or may not take), since that's the specification it was sold with.

Now, combine these things and see how difficult it would be to change the ecosystem.

It already has a usb port that can be used for storage if they chose. The SoC also has "built-in" sata 2 and I believe all that would be required is the connector mounted on the board (I believe the pad is already there). When sata is unused with that chip they are supposed to connect two pins to ground but it shouldn't take much to "un-ground" them and run the trace to the correct place (depending on where they grounded them) So a radical redesign isn't needed to do so to add storage (though they probably would need more power)

The real question, based on previous responses on DTCP-IP from some ceton folks is will they support it and seek license for it as I got the impression that they felt like if they went that route they would be "following" SD rather than "leading" them like they did with the infiniTV and they want to maintain their sense of innovation. Personally I would go/include the DTCP-IP route as they should be able to connect to "future" cable and satellite boxes that already exist that use dtcp-ip to provide the WHDVR experience.

If they end up supporting WMC recordings through an Android app, there's nothing stopping them (as long as there's enough room for the firmware update) from adding another app to support whatever DVR functionality a future "Q" product has. The Echo could potentially support either or both either with 2 different firmware versions or with 1 big merged version.

Actually, it would have been more like $800-1000 if I went through and built out the HTPC I was planning. "Nearly $400" refers to the Echo and Infini4" which were required to use in the application I wanted. The Inifin4 was useless to me without good extenders to use.

I may revisit my HTPC at some point, but CableCard support via Time Warner was crap too and I'm now looking to ditch pay TV altogether so it may be too little, too late.

Oh.. that basically works now for Live/Recorded TV as a PVR for me.