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Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 240  

post #7171 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

No, I thought I would take it on the road, and it would playback the same content that it plays at home. The Echo also gives me the ability to use a remote and continue to use my laptop while media is playing.

So you have your laptop setup as a WMC "server", using the Echo to connect to it as a MCX, and leveraging ICS as a soft router?
post #7172 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

Yup. $30 more and it will be in the sweet spot. We have been saying all along that it was priced waaaay to high for its broken features. Newegg looks to be dumping it.

Looks to be dumping it? I doubt it. They've had deals on and off since it came out.
post #7173 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

So you have your laptop setup as a WMC "server", using the Echo to connect to it as a MCX, and leveraging ICS as a soft router?

Yes, that is correct.

It does in fact "work" in this configuration, it just isn't practical.

It should just be a matter of plugging in power, HDMI and running ethernet to the laptop, but unfortunately this setup can't survive a reboot from the laptop of the Echo. If either gets powered down, uninstall/re-pair is required.

And this wasn't just a whim. I'm on the road more often than I'm at home. I travel enough to keep a programmable remote with me so I don't have to fool with the hotel remote, and I pack my own stash of toilet paper.

If this thing could get a static IP (and media playback was improved a little more) it would be a wonderful travel companion.

But my main purpose in posting my findings was to shed some light for the "in home" users having problems with re-pairing occasionally. I suspect it might be IP address related.
post #7174 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

Yes, that is correct.

It does in fact "work" in this configuration, it just isn't practical.

That's a great idea. Might be worth seeing if adding a travel router to the mix helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

It should just be a matter of plugging in power, HDMI and running ethernet to the laptop, but unfortunately this setup can't survive a reboot from the laptop of the Echo. If either gets powered down, uninstall/re-pair is required.

Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

I suspect it might be IP address related.

MCX sessions are essentially RDP w/ a sideband for A/V content, and RDP doesn't care what the source IP is so it would be weird if just changing the IP would cause it to repair. Perhaps when the Echo is powered down long enough it forgets its username and WMC tries to look it up by IP (and fails)?
post #7175 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

That's a great idea. Might be worth seeing if adding a travel router to the mix helps.

MCX sessions are essentially RDP w/ a sideband for A/V content, and RDP doesn't care what the source IP is so it would be weird if just changing the IP would cause it to repair. Perhaps when the Echo is powered down long enough it forgets its username and WMC tries to look it up by IP (and fails)?

I suspect a router (if configured to use a "reserved" IP address for the Echo) would probably fix the problem, but would kinda defeat the purpose of having a "simple" plug and go solution. (Not a deal breaker, but it knocks of some of the shine off the idea)

As far as the pairing goes, I don't know what's going on with it, but it doesn't seem to matter if it is for a second, or for a day, it needs to be re-paired after a reboot. It simply refuses to connect (or offer a setup key) until you uninstall the Echo from device manager. At that point, it will offer a new setup key, and it will repair (until the next reboot)

Edit: Could it be Firewall related? I'm using the Windows Firewall. Doesn't the Extender pairing process, poke a few holes in the firewall? Are they bound by the mac/ip address maybe?

The really cool setup would be configuring a VPN and sharing a tuner over the internet, so I could watch my cable provider from anywhere in the country (bandwidth allowing of course) Sling box? We don't need no stinking Sling box.
post #7176 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajhieb View Post

...Stuttering and deinterlacing/scaling issues vary greatly per cable provider, channel, TV and viewer. Some providers transmit their content differently, some channels from the same provider will be transmitted differently, some TVs clean up a crappy picture better than others and some people have better vision than others...

While this is certainly true, other solutions are able to handle said differences, and some wonderfully (read: XBox 360). Just because someone "happens" to be on a cable system that "happens" to send a decent signal down its line, so the echo "happens" plays it back ok, doesn't for one second mean the echo isn't flawed.

Take the analogy of a little old grandma who never drives her car over 55mph, but when her son borrows the car and goes 60mph, it shakes violently. To me at least, the car's still BROKEN!!!
post #7177 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggen_PCB View Post

Yup. $30 more and it will be in the sweet spot. We have been saying all along that it was priced waaaay to high for its broken features. Newegg looks to be dumping it.

There is no "dumping" going on. This is a promotion coordinated between NewEgg and Ceton, and is a two-day only sale. After the two days are up, the price will increase back to the normal price.
post #7178 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

There is no "dumping" going on. This is a promotion coordinated between NewEgg and Ceton, and is a two-day only sale. After the two days are up, the price will increase back to the normal price.

So basically in two days it goes from being just a little over priced to being whaaaay over priced until it can at least do as much as the XBOX! Were is the promised Android features ?
post #7179 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

There is no "dumping" going on. This is a promotion coordinated between NewEgg and Ceton, and is a two-day only sale. After the two days are up, the price will increase back to the normal price.

We appreciate your prescence here Eric but the reality is your title is Quality... We really don't hear much about quality improvements going on. We are approaching May and the Echo is still pretty much the same unpolished device it was at launch. We all know the current Xbox is about to be a clearance item. The preponderence of opinion on this site is the Echo is way overpriced against the Xbox 360 Slim... yes we know the advantages, but we also know the downside all to well.

People really wanted this device to succeed, the near open hostility to it and the skepticism about any pricing moves are natural based on functionality and the overpromising and underlivering that has been its history.

I know my brother messaged me this afternoon about the Newegg price. He has been considering the Echo for awhile. He needs two MS Win Extenders. I just can't give him a thumbs up. I would not give him a thumbs up at $50 each given current performance of the device . His displays are all large.. He has an Xbox and hates the noise and power consumption but it works as advertized and the image it generates looks okay on a large display.

Since you are the Ceton Quality guy, maybe you should talk quality once in awhile instead of ignoring all the quality complaints. If you did when you attempted to douse firesale talk you might have some forum/street credibility
post #7180 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

I suspect some TV's are better at cleaning up the mess that Echo is putting out. Also people differ in their tolerance of judder, stuttering, and poor deinterlacing. I can easily see the decoding and deinterlacing errors in the youtube clip posted by Ceton.

I would also like to point out that there is no such thing as a 29/59 frame rate bug in the source. These are perfectly valid MPEG2 bitstreams that are encoded using field repeat flags and a combination of progressive and interlaced frames to improve compression efficiency. The bug exists only in badly designed decoders. This is why your cable STB or Xbox 360 has no trouble playing these files because there is nothing wrong with them.

I'm not sure if the Freescale SoC is even capable of properly de-interlacing this kind of content. If I were Ceton, I would try to implement a 1080i pass-through mode that honors the field-repeat flags and outputs a properly weaved signal at constant fps. This would allow the TV to deal with the problem, just as it does for your cable STB.

So true, but unfortunately a prolific poster over at The Green Button and TGB.TV has successfully promoted his assertion that the "29/59" problem is due to some sort of performance issue in the video card hardware itself. There is even an entire wiki for this fos nonsense. This is in spite of Microsoft's own published KB that explicitly states it's a WMC software issue.

But since WMC won't be getting any patches to it's MPEG codec or renderer, the workaround I use for NVIDIA hardware for example, GT430 is to simply back rev the driver to 280.26. No strobing and no stutter. I've read that some later driver versions don't surface the stuttering issue but instead strobing occurs. In this case, apply MS Ian Kennedy's (IANK) "Nominal Range" registry patch. That eliminates strobing.
post #7181 of 7721
Well I got my first Echo today and it seems to work fine. Response is a lot faster than my Xbox. I get no remote lag, no combing and no ghosting. Picture is razor sharp. Did I just get lucky, or will this thing start failing soon?
post #7182 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickotz View Post

There is no "dumping" going on. This is a promotion coordinated between NewEgg and Ceton, and is a two-day only sale. After the two days are up, the price will increase back to the normal price.

I received the email from Ceton saying this exact thing (a special 2 day sale). Just wanted to confirm for others that you are not blowing smoke.
post #7183 of 7721
Call me crazy, but snarky responses to the Ceton folks that care enough to post on these forums isn't going to encourage them to give us information.
post #7184 of 7721
^^ Post what though? I've just gone through the entire thread, and I gotta say, there isn't a warm and fuzzy feeling coming from Ceton the last several months.
Quote:
Originally Posted by defrederickjr View Post

Thanks for the excellent info, guys. I think I'll be waiting for some updates or a bigger price drop.

I'm in the same position. I've just gotten an XBOX 360 from craigslist for $80, and it's working beautifully for ATSC broadcasts and my .mkv's. I'd love to take a chance on an Echo, but not for more than the XBOX cost me. The android route intrigues me, I think this will someday be a great product, but it makes no sense buying at this price on hopes for the future.
post #7185 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjgertge View Post

Call me crazy, but snarky responses to the Ceton folks that care enough to post on these forums isn't going to encourage them to give us information.

It's been pretty clear to me (since about January) that the Ceton folks that post here have marching orders not to respond or entertain responses on anything that has to do with due dates or general discussion on "whats going on" or "the sky is falling" type of questions/posts; they do respond to technical/known issues/troublshooting.

Sure, I'd like to hear their personal take, but I can't say I blame them at this point either - any responses they give will lead to nothing but more fodder than there already is in this thread.
post #7186 of 7721
Call me crazy, but hasn't Ceton's participation in this thread largely been side chatter, not so much about the Echo or where they are with it? If the criticism is too loud in here that they are less inclined to participate, I'm not so sure we'll be missing much. At this point they have to expect growing displeasure with the Echo, and yes, it's being aired here.
post #7187 of 7721
You are not crazy.
post #7188 of 7721
I can understand not wanting to take the heat here (don't agree with it, but understand), but the silence from their own site is more troubling.
post #7189 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

I can understand not wanting to take the heat here (don't agree with it, but understand), but the silence from their own site is more troubling.

Agree. I found the silence infuriating, but now...I've kind of given up hoping for a State of the Echo.

I hope that lots of people jump on the Echo at the lower price and help to fund the development / fixes. I want to be happy with my two Echo's, but am struggling at the moment. That said, I have an open ticket with them to look into HBO stuttering, and haven't not been able to get around to doing my part yet. I need to get onto that tonight.
post #7190 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

Agree. I found the silence infuriating, but now...I've kind of given up hoping for a State of the Echo.

I hope that lots of people jump on the Echo at the lower price and help to fund the development / fixes. I want to be happy with my two Echo's, but am struggling at the moment. That said, I have an open ticket with them to look into HBO stuttering, and haven't not been able to get around to doing my part yet. I need to get onto that tonight.

I thnk they lost statehood. It is now the frontier territory of the Echo. It is a canyon badland. You mostly call out to them and hear your own voice echo back at you several ftimes before the silence once again prevails.
post #7191 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I thnk they lost statehood. It is now the frontier territory of the Echo. It is a canyon badland. You mostly call out to them and hear your own voice echo back at you several ftimes before the silence once again prevails.
When I had a ticket open they always responded promptly. Maybe you are shouting in the wrong direction.
post #7192 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

When I had a ticket open they always responded promptly. Maybe you are shouting in the wrong direction.

Do you think opening a support ticket will get us a State of the Echo? I doubt it....
post #7193 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

Do you think opening a support ticket will get us a State of the Echo?
Nope.
post #7194 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

I have an open ticket with them to look into HBO stuttering, and haven't not been able to get around to doing my part yet. I need to get onto that tonight.

An update on my HBO stuttering issue. I sent Ceton all the diagnostics they needed. They then decided to get me to do a recovery to an earlier firmware. The recovery tool recovers to 2012.1219.1030. I lost all H.264 playback so decided to update to the latest stable F/W (2013.304.1657). FYI, the latest 'Beta' was still available (320.1349), so if Ceton did decide to pull it, as was rumoured, it's back now.

The 304.1657 FW performance for HBO for me looks better; however I have lost the ability to play some H.264 files.

I think I'll keep my main TV's Echo on 304.1657 until a better F/W is out and I can test it properly. At least the option to revert is always there now...
post #7195 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

When I had a ticket open they always responded promptly. Maybe you are shouting in the wrong direction.

I have more experience in support than you can possibly imagine. Ceton sends out crapware Echo firmware upgrades. They are 1/2 step forward and several back I have over and over again seen this kind of behavior. Where the stakes are much more serious then a few thousand Echos. It is often the case when the underlying hardware has problems that can't really be worked around. I don't need to do a reusme but trust me I have more eperience wiith product recovdery, recall and health campaigns than most people would see in a hundred lifetimes. Legal is always part of these product warranty and liability scenarios. The solutions may very well be understood but there will be no dislosure until a bullet is bit. Nobody bites bullets until all other options including hoping and waiting it just goes away has been tried and failed.

This kind of scenario gets double hard when the solution vendor say Freescale does not want to accept ownership of the costs. I saw literally tens of millions of monitors, hard drives, and mainboards go through endless song and dance rubber chicken firmware upgrades beofe the were properly fixed usually by outright replacement. Notebook batteries in the millions also fit these scenarios. When you are fighting over 100s of millions of dollars, legal keeps a very tight leash. In Ceton's case the scale is smaller but you are seeing just what you would expect with a product that is nearly impossible to fix in the ordinary way. If the patch here, patch there was going to really transform this product we would ne seeing signigicant results by now.

If they lose an Echo customer because the product doesn't perform, oh well. When you loose an Exxon or GM that buys 300K client devices, displays and servers a year you sweat blood especially when you are negotiating with a WD or Seagate for drives that work which don't exist and the labor to rplace them. Those calls from an Exxon that say come get your crap out of buildings life is rough. Sad thing is whether you are Dell, Lenovo, HP or Acer all the crap same and component builder has everyone of them is in the same place as you.

Ceton is most certainly under NDA with their partner if development was really making progress that was worth crowing about, there would be State of the Echos.It is not becaue they are too busy to blog a couple of paragraphs a month. Come on stop being saps!
post #7196 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

Ceton is most certainly under NDA with their partner if development was really making progress that was worth crowing about, there would be State of the Echos.It is not becaue they are too busy to blog a couple of paragraphs a month. Come on stop being saps!
We already know the current State of the Echo. I don't need a blog post to tell me it's still broken.

They said they were working on Android in the last blog post. Apparently it's not ready yet and they have nothing new to tell us.
"As we announced earlier, we're bringing the Android platform to the Echo as an added feature and initially planned to have a beta out to testers by the end of 2012. If you're familiar with Android though, you know it was initially designed for mobile devices and touch screens, which isn't an experience that translates well to television. So, rather than release the beta too early, we've been doing a lot of extra work to bring Android to the next level for TV. "
post #7197 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

When I had a ticket open they always responded promptly. Maybe you are shouting in the wrong direction.

I have more experience in support than you can possibly imagine. Ceton sends out crapware Echo firmware upgrades. They are 1/2 step forward and several back I have over and over again seen this kind of behavior. Where the stakes are much more serious then a few thousand Echos. It is often the case when the underlying hardware has problems that can't really be worked around. I don't need to do a reusme but trust me I have more eperience wiith product recovdery, recall and health campaigns than most people would see in a hundred lifetimes. Legal is always part of these product warranty and liability scenarios. The solutions may very well be understood but there will be no dislosure until a bullet is bit. Nobody bites bullets until all other options including hoping and waiting it just goes away has been tried and failed.

This kind of scenario gets double hard when the solution vendor say Freescale does not want to accept ownership of the costs. I saw literally tens of millions of monitors, hard drives, and mainboards go through endless song and dance rubber chicken firmware upgrades beofe the were properly fixed usually by outright replacement. Notebook batteries in the millions also fit these scenarios. When you are fighting over 100s of millions of dollars, legal keeps a very tight leash. In Ceton's case the scale is smaller but you are seeing just what you would expect with a product that is nearly impossible to fix in the ordinary way. If the patch here, patch there was going to really transform this product we would ne seeing signigicant results by now.

If they lose an Echo customer because the product doesn't perform, oh well. When you loose an Exxon or GM that buys 300K client devices, displays and servers a year you sweat blood especially when you are negotiating with a WD or Seagate for drives that work which don't exist and the labor to rplace them. Those calls from an Exxon that say come get your crap out of buildings life is rough. Sad thing is whether you are Dell, Lenovo, HP or Acer all the crap same and component builder has everyone of them is in the same place as you.

Ceton is most certainly under NDA with their partner if development was really making progress that was worth crowing about, there would be State of the Echos.It is not becaue they are too busy to blog a couple of paragraphs a month. Come on stop being saps!

What "legal" are you talking about. It is hardly likely that there are any actual losses to the end users beyond the value of the unit itself for which there is a replacement warranty. No attorney is going to take on this because there is no money to be made from it due to the fact that there is a limited number of them in use, unlike the Samsung A650 series TV's that supposedly have capacitor issues. There were millions of those so it was worth it to do the Class Action. The attorney made a little cash and everybody else gets replacement capacitors. I haven't replaced mine because it works fine and I don't feel like messing with something that already works. I'm probably out of the free replacement timeline but apparently these can be easily fixed for a few bucks and the directions have been posted on line.
post #7198 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken.F View Post

We already know the current State of the Echo. I don't need a blog post to tell me it's still broken.

They said they were working on Android in the last blog post. Apparently it's not ready yet and they have nothing new to tell us.
"As we announced earlier, we're bringing the Android platform to the Echo as an added feature and initially planned to have a beta out to testers by the end of 2012. If you're familiar with Android though, you know it was initially designed for mobile devices and touch screens, which isn't an experience that translates well to television. So, rather than release the beta too early, we've been doing a lot of extra work to bring Android to the next level for TV. "

I don't understand this attitude. Just because you 'know' it's broken, doesn't mean that we wouldn't like to know where it's headed.

I would like a State of the Echo to convey how development of core functionality is going, not necessarily just Android integration. E.g. MKV and H.264 performance. If they believe that Android will be work around for media playback issues, then say so. And if they want to talk about Android, I would say that at least 4 months into integration, they would have a good idea of where it's headed.

FWIW, I'm not saying that we are entitled to a blog post. However, if you initiate transparency by starting to post blogs and stating 'Be on the lookout for new beta builds and of course a new State of the Echo in a few weeks!'; it's not hard to predict people will get frustrated when the flow of information is turned off.
post #7199 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

What "legal" are you talking about. It is hardly likely that there are any actual losses to the end users beyond the value of the unit itself for which there is a replacement warranty. No attorney is going to take on this because there is no money to be made from it due to the fact that there is a limited number of them in use, unlike the Samsung A650 series TV's that supposedly have capacitor issues. There were millions of those so it was worth it to do the Class Action. The attorney made a little cash and everybody else gets replacement capacitors. I haven't replaced mine because it works fine and I don't feel like messing with something that already works. I'm probably out of the free replacement timeline but apparently these can be easily fixed for a few bucks and the directions have been posted on line.

I think the reference was to do with legal between companies, corporate legal. Assumption of liability etc. for non performing components. (E.g. Freescale vs. Ceton)
post #7200 of 7721
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Pil0t View Post

I don't understand this attitude. Just because you 'know' it's broken, doesn't mean that we wouldn't like to know where it's headed.
We'd all like to know where it's headed but empty promises in a blog aren't cutting it anymore.
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