Official Ceton Echo Extender Info Thread - Page 32

I can agree with what you said. What would irk me though would be a couple scenarios. 1) You pay $179 for hardware, test it, it goes smoothly, then they release it at $149 or cheaper, or it gets dropped in price shortly after. While that's the nature of the beast with everything, It would suck when you could have just waited a couple months and got it for cheaper. Then again, it's not like $179 will break the bank.

2) They send out 1000 or whatever of the units for $179 and under testing they realize that they need to double the RAM, or change chipsets or WiFi (or whatever) because under real-world testing they realize something isn't up to snuff.

Just spitballing.

Exactly, there are two camps at work here - those that just want a good, silent, low-power cheap extender for TV and those that want a full-blown media player that just happens to be a good extender because they collect video and want it everywhere.

I'm in the former camp, so $100-150 is the price point to me - the drawbacks of the Xbox are not enough to get me to pay more than that, and an Xbox on sale can be had for less than $150. I'm sure the Echos will be below $150 from somebody, assuming there's a good retail market for them. But that's a big if (see: previous gen extender failures).

Then, you are not Ceton's beta target. Obviously a lot ppl are willing to pay and get their hands on the new toy as early as possile. I remember the early days of Ceton card pre-ordering. Ppl are line up to pre-order the card for $399 a piece almost a year before it was available.

If you are worried about price drop after official release (which is inevitable. I suspect $199 MSRP and $150 street price), don't accept the beta. There are plenty of others willing to jump in and take your spot. Plenty of ppl are willing to pay a premium to be the first kid in the block to have the new toy.

Someone else mentioned it above, but it only takes one display. If you've got one good display that can do full bitrate BD rips justice, then why would you rip everything to a lower standard for the other TVs?

I had this situation myself. Before I got a new SSP that supports HBR audio, despite having all my BDs ripped in original quality BDMV format, and my SageTV HD300 being able to play them, I would still grab the BD off the shelf and put it in my Pioneer BD player in my HT because I got full HBR audio that way where as I couldn't with the HD300 (because it didn't decode audio or have analog multichannel outputs).

The same thing would be true if I limited my rips to the "extender quality", I would never play them in the HT, because there's higher quality on the shelf. And then not using the rips in the HT defeats the whole purpose of having them ripped in the first place.


I'd expect the Echo will sell for full retail for at least a few months until the initial demand runs out. I've got no problem paying for the beta, I've done it before. Remember you're not really paying for the beta, you're paying for the hardware to allow you to participate in the beta, and you get to keep it. So really, it's not like you're paying for the beta, you're paying to get an Echo 2-3 months before everyone else

That happens if you buy one of the first units too, nothing new about that. You always pay more to get things early/first.

If something like that happens, I'd expect Ceton to send the new revision hardware at no charge, I've seen that happen before. Of course that's rather unlikely because I'd guess Ceton has already been testing the hardware in house, so they've got a good idea that the hardware is fine by the time the "public" beta starts.

For me, I want to repeat my HTPC experience at the TV where the extender is. I have a TV at the tredmiill and want to be able to watch TV, watch a video, etc, while using it.

I did....mine was in the first batch after the Micosoft Employees got theirs.

Hey guys I haven't been around much, but of course like I said July 15th was the date for more info and more news. I am still reading through some comments on the last few pages and I will add some comments.

Some things to know is that if you put in your original registration rest assured that we did get it. If you want to confirm with me just to double double check then email me personally at beta@cetoncorp.com. Even though I am a developer I have been managing the beta and fielding questions so don't be mad if it takes me an hour or 2 to get back to you.

We sent out about 1000 confirmation emails to people, we didn't send anything to to people not selected as everyone was qualified and if there are more spots open for people that opt out you shill have a chance to be selected.

We will be releases all tech specs and feature list before any beta units are shipped or any payment is requested, everyone will know fully what they are getting.


The hardware will be final the only thing that will be upgraded during the beta is the software and by the end of the beta it will be final software.


Yep yep: Additionally, for some reason it doesn’t satisfy your needs, you may return the extender for a full refund within 30 days of when we announce availability of the extender to the general public after the beta.


So there were 2 emails. 1 is our general newsletter which was also posted on our blog http://www.cetoncorp.com/blog. You can sign up for the newsletter here: http://cetoncorp.com/company/about/ on the bottom right.

To me the price of the Echo really isn't an issue, though I've never been involved in a paid hardware beta before (note my signature). IMHO, beta testers really should at least get a break on the price in return for helping Ceton test their product. But the fact that the price could drop after it's released is something to be expected - the price will almost certainly drop below the original $180 sooner or later. If they find the hardware has issues, there's no way they could reasonably expect the beta testers to pay for either shipping or new hardware - they would have a major mutiny on their hands if they did, so it's not something I'd worry about.

Though some people simply want to be the first kid on the block with the new toy, they need to realize that they'll also need to deal with any bugs during the beta period, some of which could make the device unusable until a firmware update / new software version is delivered. So if you don't want to miss watching any TV that you consider important, make sure you have some sort of backup plan in place in case the Echo is unusable for a week or so while Ceton fixes any major issues. Those signing up for the beta should also be committed to testing a significant percentage of the functionality of the Echo and providing feedback to Ceton to help them out even if the software only needs minor tweaks to make things better. Don't expect to just get the Echo at the start of the beta and be off and running smoothly from day one.

Given the timelines that have been provided, what they're planning to deliver as a beta should be pretty far along and shouldn't need much in the way of major software fixes as starting the beta in September and delivering by the end of the year doesn't give them a lot of time to be making major changes. Of course surprises can happen, so nobody should be shocked if something comes up that prevents them from releasing the Echo on schedule.

If I didn't have a solution that currently works well for watching TV from my WMC system on every TV in the house, I probably wouldn't be hesitating to take my beta spot. But I do currently have a solution that works well, though the Echo may make things even better (depending on what the actual feature set turns out to be). My current solution is that my WMC PC is located in the basement and hooked up to an Octava HDMI 4x4 matrix switch which feeds 3 locations via HDMI extenders (over CAT6) plus a display in my basement rack. This allows me to watch directly on the WMC PC from one or more locations in the house at the same time (obviously limited to watching the same content at all locations). In addition to this, I have XBOX 360S's at 2 of the TV's that are primarily used for extender duties and for very occasional gaming. If I sign up for the beta, the Echo could either go in the basement rack allowing me to use it on any of 3 displays (plus the one in the rack) OR I could replace one of the XBOX 360S's with it. So why I'd like to know more about the feature set is to see if it's really worthwhile for me to invest the time in helping Ceton out by testing their product for them. If it's ~just~ a WMC extender, it really wouldn't be worth it for me. If it's more than that, then specifics on the additional features would make the decision a lot easier. If the additional features aren't things a given person cares about, the person won't bother to test those features, which doesn't help Ceton deliver a quality product.

So I got accepted for the Beta, and decided to accept and commit, albeit grudgingly at first. My first thought was, $179? I was hoping this would be cheaper because it’s a big unknown vs. the known entity of the Xbox. Then I thought some more and committed for three reasons.

1) If it plays TV, my wife will be happy and that’s good enough. I can reasonably expect that.
2) If it does more and sounds cool and I don’t have it, I’ll kick myself. I’d pay an early adopter tax to get my hands on it then, and I’ll be upset that I passed up my chance. There’s a reason we’ve all checked this site since January.
3) The biggest reason I committed… Microsoft is not doing much with Media Center, and we all love it, and if we don’t want it to die, we have to support someone who understands our niche. Look at the numbers…
First, there’s 1000 Beta participants. How many people do you know in everyday life who will buy one of these? Probably not many, so they can’t afford to give a huge discount to a large percentage of their buyers.

1000 boxes x $179 =$179,000. I don’t know what these things cost to make, so let’s say they’re free to Ceton (just to make this blatantly clear). $179,000 profit pays what, 3 programmers for a year? Now say they actually pay something for the hardware, or salaries are different, and you’re looking at 1-2 employees being supported by this release.
Would you be willing to do your part to support a single developer working solely to make your hobby more enjoyable? Does it still sound like too expensive and they need to get the price under $100 even if they don’t have the economy of scale discount during manufacturing?

So despite my initial hesitance, sign me up! I don't think I'd feel bad if these things take off and I see them in Best Buy on every shelf for $99 next year.

This might actually be the device that gets me to jump through the hoops required to get DirecTV into my WMC....

I was the recipient of one of the first Popcorn Hour C-200 units from the initial shipment. At release they were $299 with lots of features and promises. Years have gone by and I am still waiting on final firmware and there are still plenty of bugs. I was a Beta tester without my consent all these years.

I have no problem handing over $179 for the Echo unit and being a Beta tester. At least Ceton is nice enough to let me know that is the plan....

I have DirecTV and it was worth every hoop to be able to use WMC instead of the DirecTV guide and DVR.

I too have been accepted into the beta. As for paying $179, I have no problem as long as the following features are available:

-Netflix

-Ability to change the IR Remote Code. (This is big as the Echo will eventually be feeding a third TV in the room. I currently have two TV's in the front room with one connected directly to the HTPC and the other a Linksys DMA2100. The DMA2100 never had the ability to change the IR Remote ID. Yes, I watch way too much NBA Basketball :-) )

-Netflix

-Ability to play MKV's/MP4

-Netflix

-Remote that can turn the TV on/off along with changing the TV's volume.

-Netflix

-Slient

-Netflix

-Low Power

-Gets me a beer


-Phil

I'd pay $179 for it no question if it could get me beer.

Thanks for the info/confirmation, I look forward to getting (at least) one in September.

+1, I will add to backlog.

Once you factor in benefits, $179,000 ~might~ pay 2 junior programmers for a year. And of course (as you said), you're assuming it doesn't cost anything to manufacture the hardware .

I, for one, can't wait to get my hands on the Echo. My first test...how it handles the 29/59 bug!

I'm a chosen one and I'm happy to pay $179 to see what Echo will do.

I'm probably a little different from most of you because I'm really only interested in streaming from my own store of music, pictures, movies and home videos. And of course, live TV and DVR functionality.
If the internet browser access is viable, that's a real bonus.

I started out using the Media Center with the idea it would support all my needs. And it almost does, the exception is the playing of music files. Media center messes with bit rates in a way that is not transparent.
Most of the music I purchase is 24bit, 96K or higher so fidelity is important. (See HDTracks.com)
Today I use Media Center and extenders for live TV and DVR services only.

I don't expect Echo to satisfy my music streaming expectations as I believe this is a problem with media center itself. However, I currently use J River Media Center for music and I'm hopeful it will work with the Echo.

Anyway, I'm excited about being a beta tester and I will report back on my trials.

At $179, I wish they would hurry up and come out with the echo-lite My $70 blu-ray player from 2 years ago, and most of my $50-$80 media players do nearly everything I need... they even will play my recorded HD from the locals off my windows box. The only thing they don't do is live tv and protected recordings. Though I like the idea of an "everything" extender... all I really want (for most TV's) is to replace the cable boxes completely by having a low power extender experience of live tv and being able to play my protected recordings. I don't care about dvd/blu-ray rips, netflix/online video, MKV's or high end audio (my ears can't hear it, I can't even hear the fan from my xbox) however since I have some h.264 stations, h.264 support is probably a must... Just get me a new extender for under $100 and I would put them on 10 TV's in the house. It just seems strange that it costs $100 more for a box just for "playready". I suspect M$ licensing is probably the "bulk" of the price and they probably don't want a low cost alternative to the xbox.

I'll still get one or two at $159-$179 just not the10 I had hoped for and at that price the xbox is more attractive... especially if bought on black friday.

I do realize a lot of R&D has gone into this and I don't feel too bad about the $179 opening price... but if its still at that price come next holiday season (I'm hoping for $99-$129), I'll probably be upset that I can't ditch all my cable boxes.

Your math is somewhat dubious. You would buy 10 at $99 but only 2 at $179? 10 x $99 = $990. $990 / $179 = 5.53. So you should be able to cover half of your 10 TVs, throw in a few extra bucks and you could go 6/10.

Exactly what I was thinking.

I think his point was that for his needs, he doesn't feel the device is worth $179 to him so he's not willing to spend as much total cash as he would be if the device were less expensive. I'm assuming (hoping ) that his math skills aren't that bad .

A few rambling points: People willing to pay to be in a beta are early adopters. Early adopters tend to be willing to pay a premium for timeliness. We are a self selected sample, here, and the comments that the price is fine is not indicative of the wider market. The fact that some of us early adopters are balking at the price should indicate the wider market will be even more nonplussed at the price. I'll probably give up my beta slot. (The paid beta concept seemed weird to me too until I realized that most of us have been paid beta testers ever since M$ released Windows. )My $179 could go toward a new HTPC (I just did one for about $250). Not everyone is willing to put the extra money and time in, but remember that if people are using the Echo as a WMC extender they have already set up WMC on an HTPC and it's easier than ever (especially with the wealth of info in these forums) to build one from scratch.

Thing is, there really isn't a wider market, at least not in the usual sense. There are very, very few people who are willing to run a PC based DVR or who even know the possibility exists. AVS forum definitely isn't the whole market, but the type of people who read/participate on AVS basically are the whole market for this. Well there probably one other market segment, and that's the people who want a whole-home system to do what they want, and just work without having to fuss with it (I'm probably more one of these folks), the sort of users who buy Sonos @ $300+ a room just for audio. I'd venture this group is actually quite a bit larger than the AVS forum type who try to save every last penny they can. Get a Q and Echo system installed for you buy a local installer and you could probably sell quite a few of those to the "Sonos types".

Just remember that if the Echo does what we think/hope it will, there is no other product on the market that can do what it can, not even an HTPC.

I just had an interesting thought/observation from all this cost talk. SageTV sold their extenders for roughly the same price (first one was $200, most recent was $150), and I don't recall seeing any (or at least not nearly) as much complaining there about the cost of the extenders, and they're (hopefully) about the same thing as the Ceton extender. IIRC the second generation of SageTV extenders, Sage couldn't even keep in stock, and the most recent generation started going for $300-400+ on ebay when Google pulled the plug.
Edited by stanger89 - 7/18/12 at 9:30am

MSRP = $179
Street = $129 after about 6 months if this becomes popular.

I understand the desire to have the highest quality format played on the display that can take advantage of that. I have only recently started adding BD-rips, some of our colleciton goes back to the 90's when I started doing this, and some of them are VHS rips using DIVX 3.11 (yes, I know I am old!), which looked great on a 27" CRT TV, but now look like a bunch of moving pixels on the large screen HDTV. Most are DVD rips in AnglePotion and XVID, which play fine on Linksys extenders, and look semi-decent on the big screen. Anyway, with the BD-rips, since storage is not an issue like it used to be in the 90's, I started doing high quality rips for the playback on the large TV, and compressed copy for playback on the extenders. It is just much easier for me to do that than constantly complain about the inability to play this or that format on this or that device.


Which can be done with the exitsing extenders, as long as one complies with the formats supported.

One other factor affecting the market. When Linksys and D-Link tried this market, there really were few or no other "whole-home" systems. Now you can get a multi-tuner, large storage capacity, whole-home DVR from your friendly cable or satellite provider. My guess would be that further reduces the market for people willing to run a PC based whole-home DVR system.

I'd bet that most who opt for HTPC as whole house DVR also love the flexibility of manage your own recording files (as long as it is not copy-protected) any way you want. Recordings on cable or satellite DVRs are always encrypted. Not to mention it saves you tons of money without renting those cable boxes (you still need cable box for each TV even if you use whole home DVR).