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Ceton Q DVR-HTPC Info Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 324
4/18/12 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

With how many here I see going to extraordinary measures to not need more than one box, I'd say it's value even for those who already have a BD player, to be able to eliminate that box/complexity from the setup.

+1

I want to simplify my component stack. The Q is more appealing to me if it can replace my set-top box and Blu-ray player. In my case, it'd be replacing the HDHomeRun Prime in the basement as well.
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post #122 of 324
4/18/12 at 11:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

+1
I really don't understand all the people complaining about it having blu-ray, because they already have a player. There's huge value in an integrated interface for all my media, including ripped movies, discs, Internet streaming, etc.

If it costs less than $50 to add, no problem. But I have a feeling it's more than that. The Q is going to be expensive enough as it is without a BD, so any incremental cost will put it out of the reach of more people. Look, this is a niche market - do you want a $1000 'whole home media center' that most people will just think of as a DVR that happens to have BD? It's not going to fly.

Playing rips off of a network server (or locally) is WAY more important than adding what could be a dubious amount of cost for a BD. And playing rips costs next to nothing, the chips probably already handle it.
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post #123 of 324
4/18/12 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

With how many here I see going to extraordinary measures to not need more than one box, I'd say it's value even for those who already have a BD player, to be able to eliminate that box/complexity from the setup.

And it's not a "DVR", it's a whole house, heck even beyond whole house with their companion apps, media "system". Realistically, if it does what they say, you should never need to use anything else to consume media in your house, not a BD player, not a Roku, etc.

If people just want a DVR they'll get one from their cable company, this thing is taking aim at people who want a more integrated, more complete system/experience.

+1

I already have a blu-ray player (AKA PS3), and already have a bru-ray burner for a PC, but I'd still want a blu-ray in the Q for the simple fact that I want a all in one machine. I don't use my PS3 for anything but movies, and I rarely play my blu-rays, but I still would like the system to be complete
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post #124 of 324
4/18/12 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

If it costs less than $50 to add, no problem. But I have a feeling it's more than that. The Q is going to be expensive enough as it is without a BD, so any incremental cost will put it out of the reach of more people. Look, this is a niche market - do you want a $1000 'whole home media center' that most people will just think of as a DVR that happens to have BD? It's not going to fly.

Playing rips off of a network server (or locally) is WAY more important than adding what could be a dubious amount of cost for a BD. And playing rips costs next to nothing, the chips probably already handle it.

Then use your cable company's DVR and buy a WDTV Live and be done with it...but the Q could be a game changer for the mid-high end market. It could crush Kaleidascape systems for a fraction of their cost. If you're looking for low end prices, then HTPCs are not for you, and I doubt Ceton is looking at that market anyway (their cable card devices certainly aren't aimed at them, and I'd be surprised if the Q will ever be sitting on Best Buy shelves).

The 3 main things I'm waiting to see if Q will offer (to make my dreams come true) are:

1) Mediabrowser/MyMovies or similar movie library navigation
2) Some kind of movie rental service app like VUDU
3) Hulu + and Netflix
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post #125 of 324
4/18/12 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Kaleidescape's pricing is because of their support. If they think a hard drive (which is already redundant) is going to fail they send a service person to your home to replace it.
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post #126 of 324
4/18/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

1) Mediabrowser/MyMovies or similar movie library navigation

Exactly same here. With this feature, it will be the best out of the box DVR and HTPC IMO!
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post #127 of 324
4/18/12 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

If it costs less than $50 to add, no problem. But I have a feeling it's more than that. The Q is going to be expensive enough as it is without a BD, so any incremental cost will put it out of the reach of more people. Look, this is a niche market - do you want a $1000 'whole home media center' that most people will just think of as a DVR that happens to have BD?

Yes you do, because Tivo has already shown you can't beat the Cable/Sat DVRs with just a DVR. The Q needs to set itself apart to be successful. People don't pay enough attention to know/care/learn how much better a DVR the Q will be vs that box they get from their cable co, so it needs stuff to set it apart so people will see the value of the expensive (up front) box.

Stuff like integrated BD playback, multi-room support, "sling" like remote clients, etc, are the sorts of features that people looking beyond a cable DVR are going to be looking for.

Quote:


Playing rips off of a network server (or locally) is WAY more important than adding what could be a dubious amount of cost for a BD. And playing rips costs next to nothing, the chips probably already handle it.

The other thing to consider is including BD playback (real, from-disc) gives them a completely legitimate reason to include DTS-HD/TrueHD decoding, BD-J, etc, all the stuff for complete BD support, so (if they have a "custom" BD solution) the potential exists to have full support for ripped BDs.

There's no way they'd get the BD licenses necessary for that without including "real" BD support, just look at the media players that only play back the main movie.
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post #128 of 324
4/18/12 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

There's no way they'd get the BD licenses necessary for that without including "real" BD support, just look at the media players that only play back the main movie.

The flip side of that is that including real BD support could force them to NOT be able to support rips / ISO's. Just look at what happened with Oppo recently - the movie studios strong armed them to remove ISO support. My understanding is that the licensing rules are a bit different for a PC versus a dedicated player, so Ceton may not run into the same problem, though it's unclear if the Q would fall under dedicated player or PC rules (even if the answer might seem obvious, keep in mind that the people who make these rules are idiots...).
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post #129 of 324
4/19/12 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yes you do, because Tivo has already shown you can't beat the Cable/Sat DVRs with just a DVR. The Q needs to set itself apart to be successful. People don't pay enough attention to know/care/learn how much better a DVR the Q will be vs that box they get from their cable co, so it needs stuff to set it apart so people will see the value of the expensive (up front) box.

Good points, and I agree about Tivo. Cost was a big reason, Tivo can't shake the monthly fee or big upfront cost drawback.

Do you really think there's a big enough market out there for Ceton to sell a Q north of $750 (including BD)? I don't - all the features mentioned here are ones that AVSers want, I get that. But I just don't think there's enough of us out there demanding such a product at that price.
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post #130 of 324
4/19/12 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Good points, and I agree about Tivo. Cost was a big reason, Tivo can't shake the monthly fee or big upfront cost drawback.

I think the big problem is Tivo doesn't (well hasn't) offer any "obvious" compelling features for that high up front cost. People generally don't really care about small monthly fees, most people see $400 up front as a big cost but not $10/mo. And since Tivo basically does the same thing as a DVR from the cable provider, why pay $400 for it? Like I said, I think most people don't know/care/understand the reasons a Tivo is better than a DVR.

Quote:


Do you really think there's a big enough market out there for Ceton to sell a Q north of $750 (including BD)? I don't - all the features mentioned here are ones that AVSers want, I get that. But I just don't think there's enough of us out there demanding such a product at that price.

Sure I do, but probably not necessarily the same market that HTPC types are in. Of course I'm still guessing it's going to be more in the $600 range but that's just my gut feeling.
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post #131 of 324
4/19/12 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

Do you really think there's a big enough market out there for Ceton to sell a Q north of $750 (including BD)? I don't - all the features mentioned here are ones that AVSers want, I get that. But I just don't think there's enough of us out there demanding such a product at that price.

Probably the same crowd of people that lined up to preorder the InfiniTV 4 before it launched, or the people that paid $600-700 just for ebayed InfiniTV's when the manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand. Outside of those same people, there probably won't be much interest initially. Until the product makes a name for itself.

Just like they did with the InfiniTV4, over time I'm sure they will come up with ways to reduce cost, and open the product up to a broader range of people. Unlike lets say Tivo, or console companies (xbox, PS3), they can't sell their hardware for a loss and recoup money from subscriptions or game purchases. It's a one time sale pretty much, and they need to make profits for their R&D, and cover the costs of the hardware. Maybe over time they develop their own hardware (the host PC). Maybe when windows 8 comes out, the ARM version is able to run media center, which could make things a lot cheaper.
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post #132 of 324
4/19/12 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Of course I'm still guessing it's going to be more in the $600 range but that's just my gut feeling.

That would be nice, that's a very good price with BD included.
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post #133 of 324
4/25/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

I don't get why everyone is using Tivo as the benchmark to compare the to the Q. Can the Tivo play blu-ray disks? Can it play mkv files? Does it have unified search of personal/online media?

The Q is a commoditized HTPC. There's a reason I have an HTPC and don't have a Tivo...it can only do a fraction of what an HTPC can.

This is exactly why I would pay up to a $1000 for a Q. It is way cheaper than buying a new htpc and tuners.
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post #134 of 324
4/25/12 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

I don't get why everyone is using Tivo as the benchmark to compare the to the Q. Can the Tivo play blu-ray disks? Can it play mkv files? Does it have unified search of personal/online media?

The Q is a commoditized HTPC. There's a reason I have an HTPC and don't have a Tivo...it can only do a fraction of what an HTPC can.


No obviously TiVo can't play blu-ray discs since it doesn't have a drive.

Yes it can play MKV files and just about any other file including WTV files. See PyTiVo. I play MKVs almost daily.

Yes it has unified search of online video that they offer and they were the first to implement it with the launch of the Premiere. Search can give you Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Live TV, Recorded TV, Channel Name, Youtube, and now Xfinity on Demand in SF Bay area. Search for 30 Rock for example and you can see every source that TiVo offers and access it from the search result without having to go into various apps to find it. You can also see only the episodes that are available or all of them in the episode guide. You can then also create a wishlist recording of any episode not in the guide with one menu option.

No it doesn't include personal files, but you can easily browse it with PyTiVo or some of the other third party tools. I usually just browse my server via the PyTiVo web interface and send anything I want to watch over to the TiVo. I also prefer the transfers over streaming since Media Center always stutters due to the fact I use WHS v1.

Don't get me wrong I also have an InfiniTV4 which I plan to sell or pass on when the Q comes out, but I prefer TiVo. This is especially the case when you add in tools like TiVo.com and KMTTG for remote management. Remote Potato doesn't come close for management.
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post #135 of 324
4/26/12 at 9:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Yes you do, because Tivo has already shown you can't beat the Cable/Sat DVRs with just a DVR. The Q needs to set itself apart to be successful. People don't pay enough attention to know/care/learn how much better a DVR the Q will be vs that box they get from their cable co, so it needs stuff to set it apart so people will see the value of the expensive (up front) box.

Stuff like integrated BD playback, multi-room support, "sling" like remote clients, etc, are the sorts of features that people looking beyond a cable DVR are going to be looking for.
.

With all due respect I disagree. I had been a Tivo HD user for 2 years. The reason Tivo did not beat cable/sat dvr's is due to monthly fees based subscription model. The only differentiator between Tivo and them was better interface and additional features like netflix etc. Even in that count it pissed out users like me because it stopped updating its software to include better versions of netflix etc just to force users to purchase Tivo Premier.

Give users like me a Cable box alternative without subscription fees and I feel it can succeed. On the other hand adding stuff like Blu-ray and its additional licensing will kill the deal for me. I will continue to use Windows HTPC till a Ceton competitor comes up with Q clone for a cheaper price.

I find it hard to believe people will spend $1000 bucks in this economy for a cable box. I guarantee Q is DOA if the price is above 700.
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post #136 of 324
4/26/12 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
if the two products "just work" then they will be very attractive to custom integrators and installers.
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post #137 of 324
4/26/12 at 12:13pm
I can see Ceton pushing bundles of the Q WITH the one or two Echos to mitigate the price; at least initially. They want to sell the whole experience, not just the Q.
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post #138 of 324
4/26/12 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnewsgrp View Post


I find it hard to believe people will spend $1000 bucks in this economy for a cable box. I guarantee Q is DOA if the price is above 700.

Once again, the Q is not a DVR...it's an HTPC that should take all the configuration nightmares out of the equation. As to the price, shoot...my htpc case alone cost $500 (one of those fancy fanless ones). Just because YOU won't buy one at $1000 certainly doesn't "guarantee" it will fail.

I still don't understand that if the Q isn't priced like some mass-market chinese-built product, that it can't succeed. I brought up Kaleidascape before, and they were very successful (before the courts tried to shut them down), selling systems an order of magnitude more expensive.
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post #139 of 324
4/26/12 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

The 3 main things I'm waiting to see if Q will offer (to make my dreams come true) are:

1) Mediabrowser/MyMovies or similar movie library navigation

Agreed. If we can access MyMovies and stream Blu-Ray via the Q, it will be a game changer for sure.
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post #140 of 324
4/26/12 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post

I also prefer the transfers over streaming since Media Center always stutters due to the fact I use WHS v1.

Check your setup. Before my WHS v1 showed the blue screen of death, I streamed to Media Center 7 with no stuttering.
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post #141 of 324
4/26/12 at 11:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevendustweb View Post

Check your setup. Before my WHS v1 showed the blue screen of death, I streamed to Media Center 7 with no stuttering.

I had a WHS v1 and also had occasional stuttering on high bit-rate blu-ray rips. And this was over a gig-E connection. It was usually when it decided to do a drive re-balance, in the middle of watching a movie. This is one of the reasons Microsoft did away with Drive Extender in 2011. Since upgrading to WHS 2011 (same hardware) with Drive Bender to replace Extender, I haven't had that problem once, and I attribute it to Drive Bender's "Enable Smooth Stream" setting.

It's worth noting most of my drives are running off a PCI-X Supermicro 8-port controller plugged into a regular PCI slot. I think most people who don't have any trouble with v1 streaming are probably running their drives off motherboard SATA ports or PCIe controller cards.
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post #142 of 324
4/27/12 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentfreak View Post

No obviously TiVo can't play blu-ray discs since it doesn't have a drive.

Yes it can play MKV files and just about any other file including WTV files. See PyTiVo. I play MKVs almost daily.

Yes it has unified search of online video that they offer and they were the first to implement it with the launch of the Premiere. Search can give you Netflix, Hulu, Amazon, Live TV, Recorded TV, Channel Name, Youtube, and now Xfinity on Demand in SF Bay area. Search for 30 Rock for example and you can see every source that TiVo offers and access it from the search result without having to go into various apps to find it. You can also see only the episodes that are available or all of them in the episode guide. You can then also create a wishlist recording of any episode not in the guide with one menu option.

No it doesn't include personal files, but you can easily browse it with PyTiVo or some of the other third party tools. I usually just browse my server via the PyTiVo web interface and send anything I want to watch over to the TiVo. I also prefer the transfers over streaming since Media Center always stutters due to the fact I use WHS v1.

Don't get me wrong I also have an InfiniTV4 which I plan to sell or pass on when the Q comes out, but I prefer TiVo. This is especially the case when you add in tools like TiVo.com and KMTTG for remote management. Remote Potato doesn't come close for management.

Can your Tivo play full blu-ray bit-rate mkv rips with HD Audio (TrueHD, DTS-HD-MA)?
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post #143 of 324
4/27/12 at 4:14am
No, it won't but we won't know if the Q can either until it ships. And it's NOT a HTPC, nor is it just a DVR, but people will primarily think of (and use it) as a whole-home DVR.
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post #144 of 324
4/27/12 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

No, it won't but we won't know if the Q can either until it ships. And it's NOT a HTPC, nor is it just a DVR, but people will primarily think of (and use it) as a whole-home DVR.

IMO it is an HTPC. It's got the same hardware and software (as of the prototype). The only question will be is what it supports out of the box, and will it be locked down so we can't install software.
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post #145 of 324
4/27/12 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

No, it won't but we won't know if the Q can either until it ships. And it's NOT a HTPC, nor is it just a DVR, but people will primarily think of (and use it) as a whole-home DVR.

Let's see. It has a motherboard, it has a cpu/gpu, it runs Windows Media Center, it has a blu-ray disk/playback capability, Erik has stated it will play mkv's...or at least hinted it will.

Why exactly do you say it is not an HTPC? Sounds like it is EXACTLY an HTPC, with a preconfigured OS. You think of it as a DVR (whole home or otherwise), but I assure you, that's just a fraction of what it does. Watch the video of the mobile companion apps if you want to understand what it is capable of.
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post #146 of 324
4/27/12 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcruse View Post

Once again, the Q is not a DVR...it's an HTPC that should take all the configuration nightmares out of the equation. As to the price, shoot...my htpc case alone cost $500 (one of those fancy fanless ones). Just because YOU won't buy one at $1000 certainly doesn't "guarantee" it will fail.

I still don't understand that if the Q isn't priced like some mass-market chinese-built product, that it can't succeed. I brought up Kaleidascape before, and they were very successful (before the courts tried to shut them down), selling systems an order of magnitude more expensive.

I hope folks in Ceton don't share same opinion. While people like us with HTPC setups represent "a segment", its a very small segment. If I am Ceton, I would look for a more broader customer profile group to succeed. Its not ridiculous to think that Ceton had a common DVR user paying $30/month in mind when they created "Q"

Note: No need to get personal here and yell "YOU". I have the same setup as you and probably spend same amount.
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post #147 of 324
4/27/12 at 9:47am
I get that it does more stuff than a DVR does, but it's not an HTPC because it can't (or won't be able to) run any of a number of other useful add-on apps that you can load and run on a PC (transcoding comes to mind, as well as commercial skip). Or be able to load third-party USB tuner drivers etc. It will be locked down because it has to be locked down for support.

It is a media server/gateway appliance with DVR functionality. It's not a PC, or even a dedicated HTPC.
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post #148 of 324
4/27/12 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 
there is no definition of a home theater pc. I'd personally consider a Boxee Box to be one.
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post #149 of 324
4/27/12 at 10:02am
We agree to disagree then - a PC has always been a well-defined device to me, and an HTPC is just a specialized version (but still a general purpose PC as needed). The Q cannot and will not be a personal computer because that's not what it's for. You're not going to attach a keyboard and mouse and boot into a Windows 7 GUI, for example, because it's not running a general purpose OS. HTPCs do, and WMC, Myth, Sage, BeyondTV, etc. are all just apps. And then you can fire up a game that you installed, or a browser, or whatever when it's idle.

An HTPC in my mind is a personal computer running a general purpose OS that just happens to also run media-centered apps.
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post #150 of 324
4/27/12 at 10:49am
Ceton Q= WMC based HD DVR Blu-Ray Cable Set Top Box while there are pc hardware bits inside it is not a personal computer unless you install your own OS. Once you install the OS, you can customize to hearts content, just don't call Ceton for support when you muck it up.
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