AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Dedicated Sub EQ'ing like AntiMode or AVR's inbuilt Audyssey/MultEQ XT32 ?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dedicated Sub EQ'ing like AntiMode or AVR's inbuilt Audyssey/MultEQ XT32 ?

post #1 of 28
1/11/12 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

These days, a lot of recievers are boasting of advanced Sub eq'ing mechanism such as the MultEQ XT , MultEQ XT32 etc. Are they better than tools like AntiMode or SMS-1?? I am on the brink of getting a new AVR, and was looking at Denon 4311CI, which comes loaded with such features such as the MultiEQ XT32 etc.

My HT setup consists of Fronts Definitive Technology Mythos ST, Center Mythos 10, Surround Gem XL's, Surround Rear ProMonitor 1000, the subwoofer is a THT.
I am looking forward to upgrade to a new Receiver, deciding between pioneer SC-57 and Denon 4311CI. If i get a Pio, i will need to get a dedicated eq'ing tool such as the antimode, with denon multieq is inbuilt.

Is the antimode better or audyssey multieq xt32?
Asking this question here, cos this is the section of the bassheads, and you guys are the real deal when it comes to bass accuracy, what do u prefer?? do u settle down with the avr's inbuilt sub eq capabilities or wud get dedicated eq tool. I am not good with manual eq'ing.. hence cannot get a minidsp or a bfd... hence antimode or sms-1.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 28
1/11/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

Hey guys,

These days, a lot of recievers are boasting of advanced Sub eq'ing mechanism such as the MultEQ XT , MultEQ XT32 etc. Are they better than tools like AntiMode or SMS-1?? I am on the brink of getting a new AVR, and was looking at Denon 4311CI, which comes loaded with such features such as the MultiEQ XT32 etc.

My HT setup consists of Fronts Definitive Technology Mythos ST, Center Mythos 10, Surround Gem XL's, Surround Rear ProMonitor 1000, the subwoofer is a THT.
I am looking forward to upgrade to a new Receiver, deciding between pioneer SC-57 and Denon 4311CI. If i get a Pio, i will need to get a dedicated eq'ing tool such as the antimode, with denon multieq is inbuilt.

Is the antimode better or audyssey multieq xt32?
Asking this question here, cos this is the section of the bassheads, and you guys are the real deal when it comes to bass accuracy, what do u prefer?? do u settle down with the avr's inbuilt sub eq capabilities or wud get dedicated eq tool. I am not good with manual eq'ing.. hence cannot get a minidsp or a bfd... hence antimode or sms-1.

Start with an AVR with MutiEq XT 32, and after that if you still feel the need for further tweaking, room treatments should be given first consideration. You can always add antimode if room treatments don't give you what your looking for.

Just make sure you get XT 32 and not plain XT.
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 28
1/11/12 at 10:09am
The art of troubleshooting (in this case peaks and valleys in your bass response) requires that you do one thing at a time. I agree with the above poster that you should start off with an AVR that features MultEQ XT32 like the Denon.

If that doesn't prove satisfactory, then move on to the next step. I'm going to differ with the above poster, and recommend that you obtain a bass EQ system like the SMS-1. It could prove to be less expensive, more aesthetic and easier to get the flatness in response you are seeking than room treatments, which most people would not know how to do, like yours truly.

Incidentally, I have 2 identical subs, which also helps achieve the holy grail.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 28
1/11/12 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

The art of troubleshooting (in this case peaks and valleys in your bass response) requires that you do one thing at a time. I agree with the above poster that you should start off with an AVR that features MultEQ XT32 like the Denon.

If that doesn't prove satisfactory, then move on to the next step. I'm going to differ with the above poster, and recommend that you obtain a bass EQ system like the SMS-1. It could prove to be less expensive, more aesthetic and easier to get the flatness in response you are seeking than room treatments, which most people would not know how to do, like yours truly.

Incidentally, I have 2 identical subs, which also helps acheive the holy grail.

As much as I like the SMS-1, IIRC, it doesn't work in the time domain unlike the AntiMode and others.
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 28
1/11/12 at 11:37am
Cheaper AVR + anti-mode.

I use it along with Pioneer MCACC and it fixes everything that the Pioneer cant. Saves money in the long run, as you can upgrade to cheaper AVRs and add the anti-mode to them.
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 28
1/11/12 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Start with an AVR with MutiEq XT 32, and after that if you still feel the need for further tweaking, room treatments should be given first consideration. You can always add antimode if room treatments don't give you what your looking for.

Just make sure you get XT 32 and not plain XT.

Thanks, I am seriously considering going this path. I think one of the most important feature any receiver should have is room correction and subwoofer eq'ing. I guess all the other features such as audio decoders and amp is almost identical in all the newer avr's. Pio fails miserably on the sub eq'ing feature. I am considering Denon 4311CI, this model does have the MultiEQ XT32 feature, the ony thing it lacks is THX feature. Not sure if THX ultra adds any new spark to the sound to the movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

The art of troubleshooting (in this case peaks and valleys in your bass response) requires that you do one thing at a time. I agree with the above poster that you should start off with an AVR that features MultEQ XT32 like the Denon.

If that doesn't prove satisfactory, then move on to the next step. I'm going to differ with the above poster, and recommend that you obtain a bass EQ system like the SMS-1. It could prove to be less expensive, more aesthetic and easier to get the flatness in response you are seeking than room treatments, which most people would not know how to do, like yours truly.

Incidentally, I have 2 identical subs, which also helps achieve the holy grail.

Thanks, I think i will go the MultiEQ XT32 route... and add either an Antimode or a SMS-1 later in few months if required, i am also looking at the MiniDSP route.. learning all the eq'ing basics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

As much as I like the SMS-1, IIRC, it doesn't work in the time domain unlike the AntiMode and others.

I read the same comparision on a thread here, people still prefer AntiMode over SMS-1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Cheaper AVR + anti-mode.

I use it along with Pioneer MCACC and it fixes everything that the Pioneer cant. Saves money in the long run, as you can upgrade to cheaper AVRs and add the anti-mode to them.

Cheaper AVR = lesser and low profile amp, i dont plan to add dedicated amps anytime soon.
Pio = No MultiEQ XT32 etc, feature... no updates.
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 28
1/11/12 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Cheaper AVR + anti-mode.

I use it along with Pioneer MCACC and it fixes everything that the Pioneer cant. Saves money in the long run, as you can upgrade to cheaper AVRs and add the anti-mode to them.

+1 though I wouldn't necessarily go cheaper--just in a different direction.

I have an 8033 and it has worked wonderfully with my sub since April. Having it allowed me to consider an AVR (Yamaha RX-A1000 in my case) that did not address the sub specifically. A review of the 8033 by the creator of the REW software convinced me to try one out and I will not go without EQ for a sub again. From all I've read, Anthem's ARC and Audyssey XT32 are better than the 8033 but otherwise the 8033 holds its own for sub EQ.

I would not exclude going with an AVR with Audyssey, as my other two choices had XT, but the 8033 offers another avenue to explore. It is also, by far, the easiest sub EQ to use.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 28
1/11/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

Cheaper AVR + anti-mode.

I use it along with Pioneer MCACC and it fixes everything that the Pioneer cant. Saves money in the long run, as you can upgrade to cheaper AVRs and add the anti-mode to them.

Audyssey XT 32 is the defacto standard for equalization in receivers. That's why SVS discontinued their EQ-1, and Audyssey discontinued their stand-alone version of the EQ-1. Prices for receivers with XT 32 are coming down.

Why start with a hamstrung receiver? Only to have to add outboard EQ from the start?
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 28
1/11/12 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Audyssey XT 32 is the defacto standard for equalization in receivers. That's why SVS discontinued their EQ-1, and Audyssey discontinued their stand-alone version of the EQ-1. Prices for receivers with XT 32 are coming down.

Why start with a hamstrung receiver? Only to have to add outboard EQ from the start?

There are other factors to consider besides room EQ software. I bought the 8033 to supplement an older AVR but having it on hand gave me more options when considering an upgrade.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 28
1/11/12 at 3:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Audyssey XT 32 is the defacto standard for equalization in receivers. That's why SVS discontinued their EQ-1, and Audyssey discontinued their stand-alone version of the EQ-1. Prices for receivers with XT 32 are coming down.

Why start with a hamstrung receiver? Only to have to add outboard EQ from the start?

OTOH, if you already have an AS-EQ1, you can still go with a non-Audyssey AVR with MCACC or YMAO, without handicapping your home theater, assuming you have at least one sub to equalize. You won't have an all-in-one blended solution, but it's far better than not having Sub EQ at all. It also frees you to make other tradeoffs (i.e. fine-tuning that MCACC can do, playing with DAC filters, PQLS and video upscaling chips for what they're worth, etc.). At least that's my current rationalization for getting an SC-57 and AS-EQ1 separately over August/September last year.

Having said that, another tiebreaker is company support for upgrades and installed knowledge base (far more for Audyssey apparently; company interactions with users was a tiebreaker I used for buying a sub). So I were doing it over again.....
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 28
1/11/12 at 7:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Audyssey XT 32 is the defacto standard for equalization in receivers. That's why SVS discontinued their EQ-1, and Audyssey discontinued their stand-alone version of the EQ-1. Prices for receivers with XT 32 are coming down.

Why start with a hamstrung receiver? Only to have to add outboard EQ from the start?

XT32 receivers hover in the $2,000 range. My 1121-k was $400 + $390 for the antimode. I have enough power for my room with it, and now have eq'ing that is somewhat comparable to XT32 for much less.

When 4k tvs become the norm, or if hdmi is updated again, I can upgrade again at a lower cost, or I can sell the anti-mode... especially if xt32 starts to make its way into models under $1,000.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 28
1/11/12 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

As much as I like the SMS-1, IIRC, it doesn't work in the time domain unlike the AntiMode and others.

When you say it doesn't work in the time domain...what do you mean?
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 28
1/11/12 at 8:07pm
I'm currently shopping for a sub EQ as well. Honestly, I didn't realize it was going to be this painful when I started looking. This area just seems to be very immature, with lots of debate and drama about what's best, best approach, etc. etc.

While the AntiMode has generally positive reviews by many people, my primary concern is that it doesn't tell you what correction it's performing or how good/better/worse your in-room response is after it's corrections. It's basically the "trust me" model, other than what your ears may be able to discern the difference as being. The only way to actually see the before/after is to buy a REW setup, or OmniMic, and measure yourself separately... and if I'm going to do all that work/$, then I might as well just go with a $100 BFD DSP and save $200. Though I can certainly see the appeal to people who don't want to be bothered with all that measuring & detail and just want to be able to say that the sub EQ is covered.

My other concern with the AM is that it apparently only cuts peaks, but doesn't boost any dips. Some say that's proper since boosting will add distortion. :shrug: My concern is what good is an AM going to do me if my top problem areas are dips, and not peaks?

Personally, if a $2k AVR with XT32 is in the general price range of what you'd be looking to spend on an AVR regardless of it's sub EQ capabilities, I would probably go that way. Most AS-EQ1 owners are very positive on that product.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 28
1/11/12 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

XT32 receivers hover in the $2,000 range

Maybe at MSRP pricing, but they can be had considerably cheaper.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 28
1/11/12 at 10:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat2950 View Post

I'm currently shopping for a sub EQ as well. Honestly, I didn't realize it was going to be this painful when I started looking. This area just seems to be very immature, with lots of debate and drama about what's best, best approach, etc. etc.

While the AntiMode has generally positive reviews by many people, my primary concern is that it doesn't tell you what correction it's performing or how good/better/worse your in-room response is after it's corrections. It's basically the "trust me" model, other than what your ears may be able to discern the difference as being. The only way to actually see the before/after is to buy a REW setup, or OmniMic, and measure yourself separately... and if I'm going to do all that work/$, then I might as well just go with a $100 BFD DSP and save $200. Though I can certainly see the appeal to people who don't want to be bothered with all that measuring & detail and just want to be able to say that the sub EQ is covered.

My other concern with the AM is that it apparently only cuts peaks, but doesn't boost any dips. Some say that's proper since boosting will add distortion. :shrug: My concern is what good is an AM going to do me if my top problem areas are dips, and not peaks?

Personally, if a $2k AVR with XT32 is in the general price range of what you'd be looking to spend on an AVR regardless of it's sub EQ capabilities, I would probably go that way. Most AS-EQ1 owners are very positive on that product.

REW is free, so all you need is a Radio Shack SPL meter to measure the 8033's effects. A LOT quicker and easier than a BFD, by REW's creator's own admission. BFD is not a bad option, but the effort to use it is gigantic vs. 8033. Also, Audyssey doesn't tell you what it's done more than the 8033, with few exceptions. Not saying Audyssey is inferior but rather that the 8033 is neither as labour intensive as BFD nor more secretive than most versions of Audyssey.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 28
1/12/12 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

When you say it doesn't work in the time domain...what do you mean?

Per Craig John:

"The SMS-1 is a frequency domain EQ."

"The SVS AS-EQ1 is based on Audyssey's EQ algorithm, which is more of a time-domain EQ system. It looks at the "time" response of the bass, (ringing/reverberation), and it attempts to reduce the overhang of the bass in the room."

The Anti-Mode also operates in the time domain.

If you want to find out more about operation in the time domain you should contact Audyssey, maybe SVS, maybe Velodyne, maybe shoot a Private Message to Craig John.
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 28
1/12/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

When you say it doesn't work in the time domain...what do you mean?

To really understand what the difference is requires you to understand how digital signal processing works, which is usually at least a full semester's course at a electrical engineering school (I actually failed that course when I did it because my prof was useless, but I digress)

but Audyssey does try to explain the a few of differences between their approach (Audyssey processing) vs a parametric EQ approach (SMS-1)

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/2155...zation-methods
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 28
1/12/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

To really understand what the difference is requires you to understand how digital signal processing works, which is usually at least a full semester's course at a electrical engineering school (I actually failed that course when I did it because my prof was useless, but I digress)

but Audyssey does try to explain the a few of differences between their approach (Audyssey processing) vs a parametric EQ approach (SMS-1)

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/2155...zation-methods

warp:

Thanks for the link.
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 28
1/13/12 at 1:02pm
I am looking for a DSpeaker anti mode 8033 so if anyone has one or has seen one for sale please PM me.
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 28
1/17/12 at 11:22am
Verrry interesting. So is it true that if there is a dip in frequency, the 8033 will not adjust it?
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 28
1/17/12 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saints View Post

I am looking for a DSpeaker anti mode 8033 so if anyone has one or has seen one for sale please PM me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_abbot View Post

Verrry interesting. So is it true that if there is a dip in frequency, the 8033 will not adjust it?

I was in the same boat until few days back. But after realizing that SVS AS-EQ1 is better than antimode or sms-1, and the Audessesy XT32 is at par with AS-EQ1, i thought it was a better choice to go with the Denon 4311CI, which has MultiEQ XT32 built in, and is a high-end advanced receiver, with almost every bell and whistles u would ever want in an AVR. Got it off electronics exp for around 1300 dollars. I was in the market looking for a receiver, and was drifting in between SC-57 and 4311CI, but i was serious about sub eq, hence went with 4311CI. This way i saved 700 dollars cos i was planning to get the AS-EQ1. But now with the Denon 4311CI i can achieve the best of both the worlds. Why complicate the process and the HT rack, when one solution works for both the issues.
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 28
1/17/12 at 1:58pm
"Why complicate the process and the HT rack, when one solution works for both the issues."

The Antimode hardly complicates anything.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 28
1/17/12 at 6:19pm
What about multiple subs? Can the anti mode handle them?
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 28
1/17/12 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I was in the same boat until few days back. But after realizing that SVS AS-EQ1 is better than antimode or sms-1, and the Audessesy XT32 is at par with AS-EQ1, i thought it was a better choice to go with the Denon 4311CI, which has MultiEQ XT32 built in, and is a high-end advanced receiver, with almost every bell and whistles u would ever want in an AVR. Got it off electronics exp for around 1300 dollars. I was in the market looking for a receiver, and was drifting in between SC-57 and 4311CI, but i was serious about sub eq, hence went with 4311CI. This way i saved 700 dollars cos i was planning to get the AS-EQ1. But now with the Denon 4311CI i can achieve the best of both the worlds. Why complicate the process and the HT rack, when one solution works for both the issues.

Did you receive your 4311 yet? Mine arrives Thursday.
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 28
1/17/12 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bezlar View Post

What about multiple subs? Can the anti mode handle them?

Yes. Though not independently.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 28
1/17/12 at 10:04pm
I have the AVR-4311CI and love it (Upgraded from 3310). I used to run Audyssey in my main listening position only. I now run Audyssey in a few locations within a foot of my main listening position so Audyssey has more data to EQ with.

I read that setting speakers to 'small' regardless of actual speaker size is better if you have a sub. I tried this last weekend and found the clarity to be much better.

Also, shut off Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ...yuk! (IMO)

I'm upgrading my sub to 2 Epik Empires, so I'll be re-running Audyssey. This receiver has so many options, I really need to do more research.
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 28
1/18/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat2950 View Post

It's basically the "trust me" model, other than what your ears may be able to discern the difference as being.

Isn't that what matters the most?:-) Anti-Mode has the bypass button for performing easy comparison. If you don't hear a difference, you don't need an eq, or you may prefer the room mode peaks ('one-note bass') instead of flat bass (or you need some time to get used to it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat2950 View Post

The only way to actually see the before/after is to buy a REW setup

You can also use the Anti-Mode mic with REW if you buy a suitable microphone amplifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat2950 View Post

boosting will add distortion. :shrug:

You treat dips by placement. Put your sub in a corner. You do not care about the peaks (they are easily corrected by the eq), just minimize the dips.

If you boost a null, you put out power that is just cancelled by the room reflections. Boosting nulls is like calculating 2-2 instead of 1-1. The result is still zero.
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 28
1/18/12 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

When you say it doesn't work in the time domain...what do you mean?

SMS-1 automatic mode does not design filters to match the room modes (center frequency, width and gain). It uses fixed center frequencies. This is why it may create extra ringing instead of reducing it.

Also, the display is too smoothed to help you design filters yourself. You need a computer and REW to get good results.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Dedicated Sub EQ'ing like AntiMode or AVR's inbuilt Audyssey/MultEQ XT32 ?