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How do you all feel abput Axiom speakers? - Page 6  

post #151 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Is it the same reason why no one recommends Paradigm subs? Personally, I think so, since both are overpriced for what you get (though the Paradigms are far more overpriced).

While I don't disagree that Paradigm subs are over priced, at least people actually talk about them in the sub threads. And you can't compare the price of a Paradigm sub with Axiom, at least Paradigm has an excuse for the higher price with it being sold threw dealers. Axiom is just simply charging more and keeping it for themselves. What exactly about an Axiom justifies the price? Do them have some magical performance no one else has? Are they using some super high driver or amp?

From what I've read the only people buying Axiom subs are people with Axiom speakers.

I'm sorry but for what they charge for a Axiom sub you can get a MUCH better sub for the same money.
So once again, like I said before; for the money Axiom subs aren't that great of a sub IMO.
post #152 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Is it the same reason why no one recommends Paradigm subs? Personally, I think so, since both are overpriced for what you get (though the Paradigms are far more overpriced).

Yes and PSB, Monitor Audio, JLs, B&W, ect... But the difference is Axiom is Internet Direct, which is supposed to offer better bang for the buck. So why is their factory direct subwoofers priced similar to B&M brands that have dealer mark ups and middle men to content with.
post #153 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

While I don't disagree that Paradigm subs are over priced, at least people actually talk about them in the sub threads. And you can't compare the price of a Paradigm sub with Axiom, at least Paradigm has an excuse for the higher price with it being sold threw dealers. Axiom is just simply charging more and keeping it for themselves. What exactly about an Axiom justifies the price? Do them have some magical performance no one else has? Are they using some super high driver or amp?

From what I've read the only people buying Axiom subs are people with Axiom speakers.

I'm sorry but for what they charge for a Axiom sub you can get a MUCH better sub for the same money.
So once again, like I said before; for the money Axiom subs aren't that great of a sub IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Yes and PSB, Monitor Audio, JLs, B&W, ect... But the difference is Axiom is Internet Direct, which is supposed to offer better bang for the buck. So why is their factory direct subwoofers priced similar to B&M brands that have dealer mark ups and middle men to content with.

Wait, it is OK that Paradigm sells an overpriced and underperforming sub since they sell it through a dealer and bad that Axiom does the same since they are direct sales? Wow, talk about an anti-Axiom bias! Bad is bad, regardless of how it is sold, don't kid yourselves.
post #154 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


Wait, it is OK that Paradigm sells an overpriced and underperforming sub since they sell it through a dealer and bad that Axiom does the same since they are direct sales? Wow, talk about an anti-Axiom bias! Bad is bad, regardless of how it is sold, don't kid yourselves.

No its not "okay" which is usually the reason I always recommend something other then a Paradigm sub. But at least you can see why they are priced so high.
You're right about one thing though, bad is bad regardless of how it's sold. which is probably the main reason that only Axiom fan boys own Axiom subs.
Keep drinking your cool-aid cybrsage, I'm guessing it must taste really good.
Edited by jbrown15 - 3/31/13 at 1:24pm
post #155 of 225
It's amazing to me how so many are worried about how others spend their own money.

It's a free society - at least for the time being, enjoy it while you can - where people can shop a huge marketplace, choose products based on their needs and/or desires & purchase whatever brand that they want at the price that they are willing to pay. It is nobody else's business.

If someone wants an EP800 standing imposingly in their room, so be it. One Axiom owner has 4 of them because I think that he really likes them & they make him overwhelmingly happy. That is what counts...

TAM
post #156 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


Wait, it is OK that Paradigm sells an overpriced and underperforming sub since they sell it through a dealer and bad that Axiom does the same since they are direct sales? Wow, talk about an anti-Axiom bias! Bad is bad, regardless of how it is sold, don't kid yourselves.

No its not OK. Which is why I've never recommended B&M subwoofers and why I won't recommend Axiom subwoofers either. Internet Direct is a method that was started to give you a factory direct discount, by cutting out the middleman profits (ie Distributors, Retailer). By cutting those out you can offer a $2k B&M subwoofer for $850 as an example. Axiom on the other hand uses this ID method to exact even more profit from each product by actually charging B&M prices, with out any of the over head that B&M brands have.

Which is why we see something like the EP175 which is comparable to a Polk and EMP $175 subwoofer but priced at $600. Its why we see the Axiom EP400 8" $1200 in basic vinyl costing more than a SVS SB12 NSD $679 in piano gloss.

HSU, SVS, Rythmik, Power Sound all have similar performing subwoofer around the same prices give or take $100. Axiom on the other hand is double or more for a compariable subwoofer. When you start to see 2 or 3 for 1 pricing, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they suck value wise.

I would put a EP600 on my short list of new possible subwoofers if it was $1000 less but no way will I pay $1900 for a subwoofer that gets handily outperformed by the $700 competition (and with nicer finishes too)
post #157 of 225
GT, what speaker does the driver on the right come from. Bill Fitzmaurice says the standard is to measure the outer frame. If the driver on the right is marketed as a 5.25 that seem quite odd. Most companies would embellish their specs not de-rate them. I measured a few different drivers around my house and compared them to manufacturer specs and they all seem to conform to said specs, based on outside measurements. Over 35 yrs I have installed more than a couple car systems and all drivers were measured by the outside diameter and this has been my baseline so I didn't feel I wasn't getting what I paid for. As an aside , they really should be rated by the cone size though I think they rate them the way they do for fitment purposes.





Image Resized at http://www.shrinkpictures.com[/quote]
post #158 of 225
Lets be clear about something, I have never said the EP800 is a bad sub! I said for the money its a bad sub, there's a big difference between the two.
If someone was willing to spend the cash on 4, well I guess a fool and his money are soon parted. For $4000 less he could of had two Captivator S2's that would blow those four EP800 into oblivion, and would look just as imposing if not more.

Until Axiom brings something new to the table or gets their price/performance back inline with what else is out on the market when compared to other ID companies I would imagine they will stay irrelevant.

It is rather ironic that we're talking about Axiom subs in the speaker section, because if we were to talk about this subject over in the sub section no one would probably know what we're talking about when mentioning Axiom subs.
post #159 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

GT, what speaker does the driver on the right come from. Bill Fitzmaurice says the standard is to measure the outer frame. If the driver on the right is marketed as a 5.25 that seem quite odd. Most companies would embellish their specs not de-rate them. I measured a few different drivers around my house and compared them to manufacturer specs and they all seem to conform to said specs, based on outside measurements. Over 35 yrs I have installed more than a couple car systems and all drivers were measured by the outside diameter and this has been my baseline so I didn't feel I wasn't getting what I paid for. As an aside , they really should be rated by the cone size though I think they rate them the way they do for fitment purposes.





Image Resized at http://www.shrinkpictures.com
[/quote]

Those are from the Arx speakers. They are not underrated, the radiating portion of the driver is exactly 5.25 if you include the widest point on the surround it would be a 6.75" woofer. Tang Band on parts express does something similar, the Titanium midrange driver is listed as a 4" but the outer diameter is 4.95". While i've seen some as 6.6" out side diameter and they call it a 7" driver. I'll take under rated over, over rated any time.

But like I said earlier, there isn't a rule book or industry standard for determining driver size. If you want a speaker with 3 inches of frame and only 5" of cone area I guess you could call it an 8" driver, but most would probably consider it a 5" woofer. Theres no one out there thats going to get busted by the speaker police for mis leading on driver size.

I prefer to consider outer surround to outer surround to determine size.
post #160 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

I think they rate them the way they do for fitment purposes.
+1. Driver sizes are nominal, not precise, but they are sized by the outer frame diameter for the purpose of having a bit of uniformity.
Quote:
I prefer to consider outer surround to outer surround to determine size.
You're on your own there. And as far as speaker designers are concerned we don't use cone diameter either, what we use when engineering a speaker is the cone area.
post #161 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post


Those are from the Arx speakers. They are not underrated, the radiating portion of the driver is exactly 5.25 if you include the widest point on the surround it would be a 6.75" woofer. Tang Band on parts express does something similar, the Titanium midrange driver is listed as a 4" but the outer diameter is 4.95". While i've seen some as 6.6" out side diameter and they call it a 7" driver. I'll take under rated over, over rated any time.

But like I said earlier, there isn't a rule book or industry standard for determining driver size. If you want a speaker with 3 inches of frame and only 5" of cone area I guess you could call it an 8" driver, but most would probably consider it a 5" woofer. Theres no one out there thats going to get busted by the speaker police for mis leading on driver size.

I prefer to consider outer surround to outer surround to determine size.[/quote]

Stop putting words in my mouth, go back to school and learn some comprehension skills already. I did not say under-rated I said de-rate as in understate its actual spec or size. What I was saying was it seems odd you would call a 6.75 inch driver a 5.25 inch driver. And who care how you think it should be measure, there is a standard so we can all be on the same page.
post #162 of 225
Socketman, before you play the comprehension skills card you should probably proof read what you write, so people can try to understand what you're trying to say. Your last sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
post #163 of 225
Please quote the sentence and I will try to clarify. My proof reading isn't great I agree
post #164 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

And who care how you think it should be measure, there is a standard so we can all be on the same page.
post #165 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


That's just poor grammar . Surely you can understand just the same. Anyway , it doesn't matter how GT wants to measure a woofer, there is a standard way of measuring a driver so when someone wants to replace a driver , say from Parts Express they will get one that will fit . I had to replace a driver from my Yamaha sub, it was easy enough,I took a measurement of the other sub driver,s thiele small parameters from an identical sub using my DAT's,i then measured the outside diameter and ordered a driver and it fit right in. Hence the reason for standard's. What would it be like if every tire company sized their tire.s differently.


Better?????
post #166 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

No its not "okay" which is usually the reason I always recommend something other then a Paradigm sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

No its not OK. Which is why I've never recommended B&M subwoofers and why I won't recommend Axiom subwoofers either.

Why aren't you two in the Paradigm thread making post after post about how bad the Paradigm subs are? Why only Axiom? Serious question. You both claim they are bad for the price and no one should buy them, yet your holy crusades against bad subs do not cause you to enter their threads and bash them. Why is that? Why only Axiom? Again, a serious question, I really want to know what makes you both bash Axiom subs in Axiom threads but not bash Paradigm subs in Paradigm threads when you say they are both bad for the price.
post #167 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Keep drinking your coolair cybrsage, I'm guessing it must taste really good.

What is coolair?
post #168 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

What is coolair?

Haha well played. Too bad it doesn't change anything I've said about Axiom subs.

There, I fixed it just for you cybrsage.
Edited by jbrown15 - 3/31/13 at 1:25pm
post #169 of 225
cybrsage, if you really believe in Axiom subs that much you really should participate a little more often over in the sub section and when someone asks about a recommendation on what sub they should go with you can start to recommend Axiom subs rolleyes.gif . It would be really interesting to see how well that one goes over for you.

If you do decide to start posting about how great Axiom subs are make sure you're wearing you flame suit, because the sub guys can get pretty rough.
Edited by jbrown15 - 3/31/13 at 2:03pm
post #170 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post


Why aren't you two in the Paradigm thread making post after post about how bad the Paradigm subs are? Why only Axiom? Serious question. You both claim they are bad for the price and no one should buy them, yet your holy crusades against bad subs do not cause you to enter their threads and bash them. Why is that? Why only Axiom? Again, a serious question, I really want to know what makes you both bash Axiom subs in Axiom threads but not bash Paradigm subs in Paradigm threads when you say they are both bad for the price.

I have posted on more then one occasion that Paradigm subs are good value when compared to what else is available for the same price.
post #171 of 225
Lets not grade each other on spelling or grammar ,I have a lot of food stuck in my keyboard biggrin.gif
post #172 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Lets not grade each other on spelling or grammar ,I have a lot of food stuck in my keyboard biggrin.gif

LOL....agreed.

Anyways I've said all I feel like saying about Axiom subs and their value. If anyone cares to disagree do yourself a favor and start a thread in the sub forum section and see how that goes for you.
post #173 of 225
Never heard an axiom sub, but they are too rich for my blood either way. I have a small room so I use a couple of 8,s which give a nice overall response. I use a Creative sound designed sub that I built, for my bedroom setup , it is a really nice sounding sub I use mostly for 2 channel listening, but it will shake the neighbors windows easily.smile.gif
post #174 of 225
Socketman, I noticed in one of your posts you're located in Vancouver too? If you're ever looking to upgrade your sub you should take a look at Funk Audio.
post #175 of 225
Actually I live in Whitehorse Yukon, I am from Surrey originally. If I ever get back out to the city I will be doing some serious demoing for sure. I miss being a mall rat, just don't miss all the crowds.
I have a quite a bit of woodwork equipment and really like building speakers (have to watch what ya say about wood these days tongue.gif) and the Creative subs are really good.







home built axioms




post #176 of 225
Haha I'm from Surrey too. I'm surprised you haven't done a build for a sub using some of the higher end drivers then.
post #177 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socketman View Post

Stop putting words in my mouth, go back to school and learn some comprehension skills already. I did not say under-rated I said de-rate as in understate its actual spec or size. What I was saying was it seems odd you would call a 6.75 inch driver a 5.25 inch driver. And who care how you think it should be measure, there is a standard so we can all be on the same page.

I don't believe I put words in your mouth? Underrated is pretty much the same as derate right? Actually I think Arx probably underrates the driver size, but its a truncated frame, should you measure the widest portion or narrowist, or where the surround attactes to the frame? I think they went the way of narrowist width.

Heres a question should this be called a 2" or 5" ? http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=285-020

2" Dome Midrange ......Overall Outside Diameter 5.12"

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=287-032 4" Midrange...... Overall Outside Diameter 4.67" So what do you wanna bet that if you bought one and measured it, its would be 4" from outer surround across to outer surround? And that extra .67" is excess frame diameter.

Tang Band W4-1337SD 4" Titanium Driver Overall Outside Diameter 4.94" Looks like the didn't consider the frame in determining diameter size.

So should you round up or down for driver size? Is there an CEA or whatever industy accepted standard in that case? My comments wasn't trying to pick on Axiom or any others its just to say that Axioms M22 (which I owned and measured) only has the driver surface area of a single 6.5" woofer. Not more than a 6.5" like someone stated.
post #178 of 225
jb:

I guess that you just don't get it. The guy with 4 X EP800s spent his own money on the brand & model that he lusted after. I'm sure that he is most pleased & proud of them. Obviously he didn't want 2 X Captivators for whatever reason or he would have bought them.

That does not make him a fool for doing so - that you accused him of being. It's none of anyone else's business...

TAM
post #179 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by ex-labdriver View Post

jb:

I guess that you just don't get it. The guy with 4 X EP800s spent his own money on the brand & model that he lusted after. I'm sure that he is most pleased & proud of them. Obviously he didn't want 2 X Captivators for whatever reason or he would have bought them.

That does not make him a fool for doing so - that you accused him of being. It's none of anyone else's business...

TAM

No I get it TAM, like I said; a fool and his money are soon parted.

I don't think you get it though, Axiom doesn't make good subs FOR THE MONEY.
You want to prove me wrong, go into the sub section and start a thread proclaiming the Axiom subs are great subs for what you pay.
post #180 of 225
GT , after going to your links, I went straight to the specifications and looked at the outside diameter. If I was shopping for a 4" driver and I put 4" into PE's search and this came up , I would look at the spec's and then say to myself, self why are these guys trying to confuse me. As has already been stated the outside diameter is the standard, tweeter's on the other hand are measured by the dome, to my understanding. Why- damned if I know. I accept the way it is but just because I accept something doesn't mean I have to like it.


I was not saying in anyway that the arx woofer was inferior (under rated) just that it could easily be listed in the specs as having a 7 inch woofer (fudge factor included )making it seem like a better product based on size(larger woofer) , yet they chose to say its a 5.25 woofer . Possibly,as a marketing ploy, they may want people to think other manufacturer,s are somehow misleading their customers by calling their 4inch coned drivers a 5.25 inch driver,which btw is the standard measuring proceduce.


I don't know if there is a defacto standard written in a white paper,but I will say its been done like this for as long as ive been on the planet. Since Bill is a engineer, I will trust him until its proven different to me.

Audio is the worst and best example of spec fudging of all products except maybe cars and horsepower back in the day. For example, what constitutes a 200w speaker, people love that ,but in reality sensitivity is far more indicative of a speakers power handling. Anyway when you find a perfect world let me know and I will meet you there.

Richard
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