List of Reference Level, High Sensitivity & SPL Speakers - Page 8

Originally Posted by saldog78

I applaud the effort in this thread, i just don't think it's overly useful, and in fact could be quite misleading to someone new to the forum. Your spreadsheet is completely ignoring sound QUALITY. What good is playing loud if it sounds terrible? For example, Revel Ultima Salon 2s, some of the most highly regarded speakers in the world, only have an 86 db/W/m sensitivity. You're going to dock them because they're tough to drive? If "ease of driving" is your only criteria, why not just everybody buy PA speakers and call it a day? They're cheap, handle lots of power, and produce tons of db. Oh wait, they sound terrible, because of the non-linear response, etc.

I'm just trying to figure out the usefulness of this thread, because i came into it with high expectations (and i definitely appreciate all the work you've put in!), but i just want people to keep it in perspective that the sound actually has to sound GOOD, not just loud.

Originally Posted by Eyleron

Added the MK S-150 and the MK LCR-750.

Added Crystal Acoustic TX-T2 and TX-T3 (what's the price on this speaker?)

Originally Posted by lovinthehd

Revel Salon 2s may sound nice to you but at that price they're not ever going to be seriously considered by very many. At that price they should give you a blowjob...every frikkin' day.

Originally Posted by Eyleron

Ha, is it merely coincidence that we have a lot of mention of quality since someone asked about Cerwin-Vega speakers?


Thanks. Well, let me provide some context, and maybe you can help make it less misleading.

Maybe my earliest statements of "Why this list?" are incomplete?

I've read thousands of speaker reviews, marketing pages, test reports, and anecdotes about speakers, and I've listened to a smattering of consumer "hi-fi" speakers. This information contained talk about fluffy meaningless stuff that were just positive adjectives thrown together. Or they tested the smoothness of on and off-axis response. Or how much distortion at 90dB there was. And how beautiful the cabinetry was.

What they usually failed to mention was how the speaker performs at higher volumes, like at 10dB below reference level and above.

So I don't think the world needs more information about the qualitative attributes that present themselves when you're not taxing the speaker at all. You can read the manufacturer's fluff about the speaker. You can find the owners' threads (where most people feel they're happy, because they bought the product). You can read honest reviews. You can listen to the speakers yourself. And you can sometimes find test data.

I think the world needs more info about the stuff that's usually left out. I found a few threads here and there talking about how speakers do and don't perform on dynamic peaks. And how a surprising number of people are stressing their speakers / amps out and getting a LOW QUALITY performance. But the info was few and far between.

I never claimed that "This list presents all the universally-acclaimed speakers of high quality on all attributes and goals."

Another purpose of the list is educational. Many people don't realize how their speakers are compressing their dynamic peaks and distorting.


Note that above when I decided to cut the list off on the bottom at 105dB using peak watts @ 12 feet, I added that many of the speakers I was dropping had many fine qualities. They aren't bad speakers. They're not good enough for this particular application. That's true about everything in life. People, cars, guns, houses, etc.

One of the qualities of a speaker is how it performs how people are using it. If you give me a speaker with a perfect frequency response, and I want to listen at -15dBfs (which is less than half as loud as in a movie theater), and the dynamics of the music are all squashed, or my amp clips a bit making the sound harsh, or that perfect frequency response changes due to compression, than this speaker is now performing poorly, and exhibits low quality for how I'm trying to use it.

Imagine a world with reviews of automobiles, without any max performance info... They extol the virtues of these fine cars: their beautiful paint jobs, how quiet they are to drive, how they felt to drive, how well the brakes worked......ALL UNDER 60 MPH! I'd feel like something was missing if I didn't find out what the limits of the vehicles were. Fine, you told me how they accelerate in town when I'm going to the grocery store. But how will it accelerate if I tromp on the accelerator pedal? Is the handling responsive at higher speeds? Is the top speed only 60? 70? Will I get creamed trying to pass a truck on the interstate?

Such a review with missing info might rate a 1930s car the same as a modern BMW, because you never put the vehicles into a situation that stressed them.

Can you imagine someone wanting to know what the quality of the car's performance limits are? And if you replied, "Well, who cares about if the car can do 100mph if the quality of the car sucks?"

Many of the speakers on the list have a poorer frequency response than certain models by Revel and Paradigm and Magnepan. But many other speakers do, too. Someone's making these speakers for a reason, because they think they can sell them to some niche. They have their strong and weak points. I'm pointing out that the Revel has some weak qualities. It's up to you to decide if that matters to you. If you turn the dial on your receiver no higher than -10 and you sit 12 feet away, then I imagine it shouldn't matter.


Well, they're in the upper-80s, which seems to be middlin' in the consumer speaker world. And to be clear, I'm only using the manufacturers' own specs in the chart, except where it's known/assumed those specs are incorrect. I've only compiled them here to look at in one place.

When I "scored," it's only as a way to aggregate several of their attributes together, with different weightings. But how the chart is ranked by default is by a combination of their power handling, sensitivity, and output. Really, I could just rank on output, since that's a combination of power handling and sensitivity.

If the Revel Ultima Salon 2 can handle 800 watt peaks, then it'll be ranked higher on the list...higher even than some higher sensitivity speakers.

Have your read RMK's review of his JTR speakers? Here are more comments on AVS. He's someone who says he upgraded going from the Revel to JTR.

Product Disclosures on Quality
I also noticed how much more information about the speakers' quality was given on many pro audio websites. They're willing to tell me how the speaker will experience thermal compression. How much distortion there is at what level. What the frequency response looks like. And off-axis, too. What the polar response is. What the impedance curve is. When companies do this, they're responding to their customers' demand for more information about the speaker's quality. We see this less in the consumer world...why? Are we a sucker for prettier cabinetry and fluffy marketing?


No, ease-of-driving isn't the only criteria to make the list. As I've talked about elsewhere, it's: Can this speaker output 105db using its own stated peak power handling. That might be lower ease-of-driving. Or it might be able to handle a lot of power, so one can mate it with a 200-400wpc amp.

Another aspect of a linear response is: as I turn up the volume, is the frequency response the same?

There are a lot of pro speakers: concert live sound speakers of various qualities, nearfield monitoring, midfield monitoring, farfield monitors. Stage monitors. Some of those are the speakers used by the people that MADE the records and movies you're listening to!

Distortion
Also note that distortion rises as you stress the speaker. If you're not stressing the speaker, then there shouldn't be a whole lot of distortion. Distortion sounds bad...it's another qualitative attribute. Pushing an amp into clipping on dynamic peaks causes distortion. There's thermal compression and distortion when your average levels are too high. Distortion due to magnetic flux changes under peak duress, or mechanical limits of the speaker, make the sound bad!

People have well-regarded speakers here all the time that when they turn it up so it's 10db lower than movie theater reference level, the sound is harsh. They wince. They complain it sounds "too loud." With better speakers for those levels, they no longer say it's too loud. It's louder, and impactful. They get scared by the movies. They can feel the music's bass. It sounds more dynamic like listening to the orchestra live. They have a higher quality performance than what they had before.



Well, I imagine you came into the thread expecting to find a list of speakers that have higher sensitivity, and also more SPL, and lower distortion, with regards to reference level output.

Depending on your application, louder is gooder. Light background music: 1 w of power and a low sensitivity speaker is fine. Critical listening at 10 feet with an extremely quiet room (so the noise floor is low), again, a few watts and less sensitivity is fine. But if you want it to sound like the concert, or the movie theater, or you're at a greater listening distance, then we're making greater demands on the speakers.

And there are other qualitative attributes that may not apply for other people. Off-axis performance? Not needed for those with heavily treated reflection points. Wide sweet spot? Not needed for those sitting in a single listening point alone. Furniture grade cabinetry? Who cares, if the speaker is hidden? Higher distortion? If they're outdoor on a noisy lake, I probably won't notice.

Here's how you can help:

• Find some more speakers that don't crumble when pushed harder, that you feel exhibit a high degree of quality in many other aspects as well. An 85db sensitive (anechoic) speaker that has 600 watt peak power handling (or probably 150w RMS power handling) will make the list. As will a 91db speaker and 300 watts peak.
  
• Tell me if you think that near-reference-level, like 5dB under, is worth keeping on this list?
  
• Find forum sentiment about how people feel about certain speakers, so it can be noted here. Find enough positive or negative reviews that we can agree on how people feel about the speaker.
  
• Tell me what other qualitative measurements you'd like to see. I do want to learn more about directivity index / factor, and how it should be presented. For instance, for subwoofers, this has been THD at different frequencies; the -3db point; Max SPL < some distortion threshold for 10-20hz, 10-40hz, 20-60hz, 20-120hz; group delay, etc.

I appreciate your feedback and letting me explain more about the context of the list, why it's made, what it's trying to help with, and what it doesn't do. And I thank you in advance for help in making the info more clear, presentable, realistic, and complete!

Also, for an 8 ohm speaker, 1 watt input is 2.83 volts. Do you measure a 4 ohm speaker at 1 watt (1.42 volts) or at 2.83 volts (2 watts)? The latter method gives a result 3 dB higher, and is therefore popular with marketers.

Originally Posted by nizl

This thread is a great idea, but the current spreadsheet has a couple significant miscalculations. As background, I have 15+ years experience with pro gear - sound reinforcement, live PA, high-current power amps, etc. So this is not some audiophile post about "which sounds better".

First, there is a well-known loophole in sensitivity ratings that is causing this spreadsheet to make it appear that Pro-series speakers have higher sensitivity than home speakers. They don't. Pro speakers run at 4 ohms, whereas home speakers typically run at 8 ohms. Manufacturers exploit this in measuring sensitivity:

http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/Loudnes...er_Sensitivity



Second, the spreadsheet weighs higher watts as being better, and lower as being worse. But the watts are directly related to the impedance! 500w @ 4 ohm is the same as 250w @ 8 ohm is the same as 1000w @ 2 ohm. There is no advantage to running at 4 ohm and using 500w vs 8 ohm and using 250w; this is merely a design choice by the speaker designer. In fact, the power supply requirements to pump 500w could be seen as a DISadvantage:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/spkramp.html

Bottom line, if you subtracted 3db from the 4 ohm speakers' sensitivity ratings, and re-weighted the wattage column as watts/ohms, you would see very different (and more realistic) results.

Originally Posted by RMK!

You may want to mosey on up to Music Lovers in SF and get a demo of the Salon2's. When properly setup, they are amazing speakers for music (probably the best I have heard). Listening to well recorded Jazz with a smokey voiced singer is a very nice experience. My Studio2/Voice2 LCR's were great loudspeakers and the cabinets were furniture grade so they look good in just about any shared space environment.

What these audiophile speakers lack is the ability to play movies and concerts at realistic levels. The train wreck scene in Super 8 is a good example as is Metalica playing Sandman or Iron Man (with Ozzie) at the the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame Concert Bluray. I was disappointed that my beautiful Revels could not give me that spine tingling sensation of a concert level audio system. They were kind of like a beautiful high maintenance woman, pretty to look at and fun to be out with but lacking authenticity. OK, maybe not the best analogy () but for me it came down to function over form. Not everyone wants this and it certainly can be damaging to your hearing if you're not careful, but I found what I was looking for in a HT sound system and can never go back to polite and pretty.

Originally Posted by RMK!

You may want to mosey on up to Music Lovers in SF and get a demo of the Salon2's. When properly setup, they are amazing speakers for music (probably the best I have heard). Listening to well recorded Jazz with a smokey voiced singer is a very nice experience. My Studio2/Voice2 LCR's were great loudspeakers and the cabinets were furniture grade so they look good in just about any shared space environment.

What these audiophile speakers lack is the ability to play movies and concerts at realistic levels. The train wreck scene in Super 8 is a good example as is Metalica playing Sandman or Iron Man (with Ozzie) at the the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame Concert Bluray. I was disappointed that my beautiful Revels could not give me that spine tingling sensation of a concert level audio system. They were kind of like a beautiful high maintenance woman, pretty to look at and fun to be out with but lacking authenticity. OK, maybe not the best analogy () but for me it came down to function over form. Not everyone wants this and it certainly can be damaging to your hearing if you're not careful, but I found what I was looking for in a HT sound system and can never go back to polite and pretty.

Originally Posted by lovinthehd

Doubt if those Revels go low enough to do movie LFEs any justice without some help, a good sub is needed. Some speakers that do okay with classical or jazz just don't have what it takes for a good rock show either.

I haven't been by Music Lovers, tho have read about them, might just do that to see what 20k/pr plus buys (altho when I first googled these speakers I got an article indicating 35k...what does a pair actually sell for?).

Originally Posted by Eyleron

But it sounds like if they just give sensitivity as XXdB anechoic 1m 2.83v for a 4ohm speaker, I should just drop its sensitivity by 3dB? How about if it's given for a 4ohm speaker but with 1 watt? (I haven't read your links yet, but I will).

Originally Posted by Eyleron

I'm confused. I can see how the voltage draw would be different between two speakers where you drive with the same wattage but have different impedances.
But, using the SPL calculations, shouldn't we get 3dB more SPL output from the JBL if we feed it twice the watts? I haven't seen those calculations use voltage, just watts.

Originally Posted by Eyleron

Right, but how do ohms come into play here: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html ?

Originally Posted by Eyleron

In other words, given two speakers, same sensitivity, one rated at 4 nominal ohms, the other 8 nominal ohms, both rated for 400w, tell me how to use the ohms, volts, or amps in the SPL calculations to come up with a different result for the SPL output?

Otherwise, I'm going to feed 400w into the function and come up with the same dB SPL.

But, using the SPL calculations, shouldn't we get 3dB more SPL output from the JBL if we feed it twice the watts?

Another factor to consider when matching speakers with amplifiers is the load the speaker presents to the amplifier. Part of this is the impedance rating... You do need to be a little wary of the sensitivity rating of a 4 ohm speaker. 2.83V into an 8 ohm load is 1W. Manufacturers of 4 ohm speakers usually rate their speakers by that same 2.83V. However in a 4 ohm speaker there is half the resistance to current flow, meaning that, per Ohm's law, you are actually delivering 2W of power to the speaker. Some high end amplifiers are capable of delivering twice their current into the 4 ohm load but most are not.

Originally Posted by Eyleron

Yes, I see the current is 7 amps or 14 amps. That tells me how the amp will behave.

My question still stands. "How does this relate to SPL output calculations?" I'm new at this. Please help me to understand.

In other words, given two speakers, same sensitivity, one rated at 4 nominal ohms, the other 8 nominal ohms, both rated for 400w, tell me how to use the ohms, volts, or amps in the SPL calculations to come up with a different result for the SPL output?

Otherwise, I'm going to feed 400w into the function and come up with the same dB SPL.

Originally Posted by Eyleron

Let's use the SPL calculator here.

Originally Posted by Eyleron


I don't see how that's relevant here, though. I'm not assuming any size amplifier. Or, I'm assuming an infinitely capable amplifier, where the only limiting factor is the speaker, because I'm comparing speakers.